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Surprised by Suffering?

stephen

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Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
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Gayle Williams was a 34-year-old foreign aid worker serving among the disabled in a country where humanitarian work is both needed and dangerous. Williams was killed as she walked to work, targeted by a militant group because they believed she was spreading Christianity.



Elsewhere, a young medical student at a prestigious university described in detail the hostility he confronts daily as a Christian. He spoke of students and friends who deride the possibility of possessing both faith and intellect, medical professors who actually apologize when the language of design inadvertently slips into lectures on the body, and the isolation that comes from trying to stand in the shadows of this increasingly antagonistic majority.


When confronted by the stories of those who live their faith among people who hate them for it, I am confounded, inspired, saddened, and thankful all at once. The death and murder of Gayle Williams startles those at ease in their faith to reflection. The pervasive opposition in the lives of believing university students awakens even seasoned believers to their own apathy. How courageous is the believer who follows Christ among those who hurl insults and hostility? How treasured is the Bible that must be buried in the backyard for protection? How sacred is the faith of one who is willing to die for it?

For those of us who live in far less hostile environments, news of persecution is foreign, frightening, and difficult to fathom. Their experiences bring the words of the early church to life in a way that many of us have never considered. When the apostle Paul wrote that nothing will separate us from the love of Christ -- neither "tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword" -- he was referring to struggles that were dangerously real to him and the people to whom he was writing. "

We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; We are always carrying around the death of Jesus in our bodies, so that the life of Jesus may be clearly shown in our bodies." (2 Corinthians 4:8-10). Peter, too, encouraged believers in their troubling situations. He urged them to stand firm in their convictions regardless of their affliction; he reminded them that discomfort and suffering was a sacred part of following the wounded one. "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." (1 Peter 4:12-13).


The apostles' words do not take away the injustice of brutal murder. But they do assuage the shock of its occurrence. Jesus told his followers to expect persecution; in fact, he said they would be blessed by it....Perhaps it is stranger when it is
not happening. "Remember the words I spoke to you," said Jesus to his disciples. "'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also" (John 15:20). And then he was led away like a sheep to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7).



(Jill Carattini, "Surprised by Suffering," January 16, 2013, Surprised by Suffering | RZIM).
 
yes indeed these stories abound dont they.
==============================
HOWEVER i would like to show you a contrast situation if i may - not to take away from the suffering of others but simply tp compare 2 ways

come with me now as i show you this contrast and lets us ponder of 2 ways before us,

when Our Saviour Jesus was faced with wicked men, who plotted to KILL HIM, 11 times it is stated '' HE DISAPPEARED from their midst''.
when I saw this amazing fact i wanted to understand how this was so.

so i learnt that Jesus was born a MORTAL babe, no different from us all - mortal mortal mortal - for His father Joseph took him and Mary to Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod who murdered all the little boys under 2yrs -BUT NOT JESUS.
however WE FIND AS JESUS GREW it is recorded 'HE WAXED STRONG IN THE SPIRIT AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT'' - in other words Jesus was learning thru suffering HOW TO OVERCOME ALL DEATH AND BECOME ''BEGOTTEN''of His FATHER - THE SPIRIT OF LIFE.
He knew how to develop His spirit man within so TRUE DIVINE LIFE WOULD APPEAR AND DEATH would be destroyed.
thats what he did - HE DID IT - so when the time came this mortal babe had grown into a man FILLED WITH DIVINE LIFE so that none could ever kill HIM.

Yes, we also know HE GAVE UP HIS LIFE as a sacrifice BUT IF THIS NEVER HAPPENED JESUS WOULD BE STILL ALIVE TODAY.
NOW IF JESUS could do this ''disappearing'' why not his disciples?
well ofcourse we can make excuses for our limitedness but HE HAS EQIPPED HIS PEOPLE WITH EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING and satan is a defeated foe.
ALLOW ME to say this offereing up the truth but possibly giving offense - THE TRUE GOSPEL IS NOT PREACHED AT ALL - it is the traditions of men why?
because of this 2 tim 1 v 9-10-11
whay does it reveal?
[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons"][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons"][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
so if ye preach the GOSPEL LIKE JESUS - you will have all HIS ADVANTAGES. I kid u not.
so you see when ''ANOTHER'' GOSPEL is preached death happens......why so- its only talk without the walk for- ITS THE ANOINTING THAT BREAKS THE YOKE.

religious humans cannot preach the gospel ONLY A NEW CREATION CAN for this person is formed in the image of their Saviour Christ.
yes i do understand there are martyrs all over this world - but Jesus GAVE UP His life THAT WE COULD ''''BE'' his same type of life.
A person who is being filled with Christ = the anointing of the divine kingdom reality - they can come into a stage where they are still here, amid everything going on here - BUT ALL EVIL AND DISHARMONY has been stucked out from the ''atmosphere'' they have entered into.
IN THIS PLACE all is HUSHED - its the Peace and the SILENCE that is noticed first off. NOTHING CAUSES upset or distress there.
NONE can see you, it just u and this reality as you have ''faded from view''. YOU TOO HAVE DISAPPEARED from the Matrix.
thAT IS EXACTLY what Jesus did - He came into and went out from at will. SO DOES HIS EKKLESIA.
 
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so i learnt that Jesus was born a MORTAL babe, no different from us all - mortal mortal mortal
Like us as in human "son of man" yes, like us as in "conceived by the Holy Spirit", no.

Yes, we also know HE GAVE UP HIS LIFE as a sacrifice BUT IF THIS NEVER HAPPENED JESUS WOULD BE STILL ALIVE TODAY.

Ummm... Jesus isn't alive? In the flesh?

so if ye preach the GOSPEL LIKE JESUS - you will have all HIS ADVANTAGES. I kid u not.

We can become God?

however WE FIND AS JESUS GREW it is recorded 'HE WAXED STRONG IN THE SPIRIT AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT'' - in other words Jesus was learning thru suffering HOW TO OVERCOME ALL DEATH AND BECOME ''BEGOTTEN''of His FATHER - THE SPIRIT OF LIFE.

Jesus learned to be begotten? He wasn't always begotten before the creation of the universe?

NONE can see you, it just u and this reality as you have ''faded from view''. YOU TOO HAVE DISAPPEARED from the Matrix.

Ummm.... ok?
 
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for your consideration...
how did a mortal babe who could be harmed, slain, murdered, become THE LIFE, and physical death defeated at His word when He began His ministry at 30yrs of age.?

WHAT WAS THE TRANSFORMATIONAL ACTION during those hidden years, NECESSARY FOR SUCH AN AMAZING TRUTH to happen?

now it is revealed in the NT '' we receive the gospel, that abolished death'' - and this ministry is to be preached = what Gospel again?= that LIFE ie. THE SAME TYPE of LIFE JESUS LIVED WITHIN and its immortality was brought to light [ revealed for the 1st time]
THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS were to be FORMED into the SAME TYPE OF BEING as their Teacher King.
THE BODY is to be the same kind as the head. [the head cannot be perfect and the body crippled and deformed.]

unless the GOSPEL PREACHING does this very thing - WE DONT HEAR THE CORRECT GOSPEL and so remain subjected to all effects of the adamic world of darkness, evil and death.
 
please allow me to open up this a wee bit further.....
JESUS BECAME as He is because HE DID THE WILL OF HIS FATHER, in what he heard and what He saw - they had become as one. Remember Jesus is THE WAY - into THE TRUTH - showing His people THE LIFE. [ SO these 3 things are actually a PERSON] and this Person became BEGOTTEN as The Christ - ie.-the powerfilled works from the kingdom realm.
HE WAS REVERSING the darkness, tricks, con and attraction of the devil and the Matrix realm he rules.

He said this for His disciples....
''verily verily I say unto you, those who keep my sayings shall never see death'' - John 8 v 51
when you see the word VERILY 2x - He is stressing this awesome truth - ''THOSE who keep my sayings shall never see death''
why?
BECAUSE JESUS had his sayings written in the Gospels for our education as a tutor to become like He is as His image - THESESAYINGS are LIKE a TEXT BOOK for our divine schooling so we become BEGOTTEN AS THE REDEEMED and have the same ABILITIES AS HE DOES as Co-heirs in Christ.
WHAT'S ALL THIS MEAN?
God in man and man in God. - the same BE-ings as Jesus. THE SAME KIND - THE ETERNAL KIND.
Jesus words obeyed bring life to us as they did to HIM. He walked this way into the truth of His sayings.
"He that believeth in
me though he were dead yet shall he
live; whosoever liveth and believeth in
me shall never die!" Jn.11:25

the church system brushes these awesome holy revelations off as meaning - it means ''a spiritual death in the lake of fire'' etc........not so.

can u understand how THE real NT GOSPEL has been HIGHJACKED from the ancient past and this ''other gospel'' CANNOT MAKE ANYONE no matter how sincere INTO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST JESUS. NONE have ever crossed over into the same ministry or acts norbeen delivered into Kingdom values under the church divisional system.
 
JESUS BECAME as He is because HE DID THE WILL OF HIS FATHER, in what he heard and what He saw - they had become as one. Remember Jesus is THE WAY - into THE TRUTH - showing His people THE LIFE. [ SO these 3 things are actually a PERSON] and this Person became BEGOTTEN as The Christ - ie.-the powerfilled works from the kingdom realm.
HE WAS REVERSING the darkness, tricks, con and attraction of the devil and the Matrix realm he rules.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
I wonder why it says sent his "begotten Son", instead of "son to become begotten"? It says he was begotten when God sent him.
Jesus is God, just as much as the Father is God. He isn't "a god", He is "The God".

so we become BEGOTTEN AS THE REDEEMED and have the same ABILITIES AS HE DOES as Co-heirs in Christ.
WHAT'S ALL THIS MEAN?
God in man and man in God. - the same BE-ings as Jesus. THE SAME KIND - THE ETERNAL KIND.

Sorry, man does not become God. If we can become gods, then Jesus is just another (small g) god.

I can't help but ask if you are a Mormon?
 
You know some people believe these verses are talking about Satan. But whether they are about Satan, or simply a man, it doesn't matter for this point.

Isa 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13 "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
Isa 14:14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

Eze 28:2 "Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas'; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God--
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Because you have made your heart Like the heart of God,
Eze 28:7 Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, The most ruthless of the nations. And they will draw their swords Against the beauty of your wisdom And defile your splendor.
Eze 28:8 'They will bring you down to the pit, And you will die the death of those who are slain In the heart of the seas.
Eze 28:9 'Will you still say, "I am a god," In the presence of your slayer, Though you are a man and not God, In the hands of those who wound you?

You know the very first sin ever committed by man was similar.
Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
Gen 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Amazingly, some still teach we can be like God.
 
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pundit......yes indeed these stories abound dont they.

Do they?

Have you your-self been involved at some point in your life, with such sacrifice for Jesus, the only Saviour of men.......and the cause of the Gospel?

Have you met Jesus?

This is 'talkjesus'..........His cause is our concern.

Give some ref. illustration for your remark please.......
yes indeed these stories abound dont they.
 
Do they?

Have you your-self been involved at some point in your life, with such sacrifice for Jesus, the only Saviour of men.......and the cause of the Gospel?

Have you met Jesus?

This is 'talkjesus'..........His cause is our concern.

Give some ref. illustration for your remark please.......

why the agro stephen to me? why not re read my post to understand it LITTLE better. Thank you.
I take care not to offend others, i am very gentle towards all men but i do not compromise the truth to ' play church'.
nor..
i dont understand your response to me?

------------------------------------------------------
the true sacrifice of a gospel NT believer is a LIVING ONE i.e. who dies to their mortality each day on their cross of adamic self.
ITS NOT THE POWER OF OUR TALK,BUT THE VICTORY OF OUR WALK, over satan's bruised head in Jesus name.

This world is full of religious martyrs of all beliefs, they too die daily for 'their cause' - but - the truth is Stephen, JESUS when confronted with wicked religious men intent to harm. maim and kill HIM - He disappeared from their midst - NOW I POINT THIS OUT and others ''get offended'' over such a awesome revelation of HOW JESUS MINISTERED OUT FROM the divine realm here on earth.
Paul when ministering to others prayed for them ''TO BECONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST'' - this inc. everything from His Kingdom blessings and culture as Co-Heirs in Christ - He is not ashamed to call them Brethren.


ALSO
Stephen, Jesus confesses '' FEW FIND ETERNAL LIFE''?
WHY?
could it be Stephen, they cannot find this DIVINE LIFE OF KINGDOM LIBERTY, cuz they are preaching other Gospel and miss THE WHOLE WONDER of TRUE GODLY SALVATION here on earth - Why not become OUTRAGED at the religious tradtional deceptions THAT STOPS true life of Christ from manifesting here and now - LIKE IT ALL HAPPENED 2000yrs back.

Let us never defend a gospel that is divisional - its not worth the judgement Father says ''get away from Me you workers of iniguity, i never knew you''
People dont fully understand nor have any conception of what HIS JUDGEMENT IS upon them, when they remain within ''the traditions of men'.

stephen - as a moderator - here is a tip.
TALK JESUS - is the name for this forum - therefore Jesus SAYINGS should abound here = OF SO - His sayings followed by your poster/readers means ''THEY SHALL NEVER SEE DEATH'' - john has written this for our spiritual educations.
JESUS DID REVEAL HIMSELF TO HIS EKKLESIA - after all He called and chose them and ordained them to become HIS CO-HEIRS in Christ, a pecular people, a royal house - HE DRAWS THEM to himself - so they KNOW how to eat from the TREE OF LIFE................. amazing hey?
There are those in religious circles who by reason of their natural attributes are able to influence people into the kingdom of religious confusion. You will know them for they lack humility and speak of their own works. They seek to build towers and monuments unto themselves. They gather people unto themselves for they are easy to follow. Their appetite is satisfied with looking upon their own works and receiving the compliments of man. They run programmes and lay plans to achieve results as does the man of enterprise and greed.They have a form of Godliness but lack the power thereof. I counsel you to look deep. Look deep before you follow these shepherds any further. Where do they lead? Do they lead you to the green fields of My pasture or are you in the sheep-pen of hunger and thirst with the dry dust of man’s words. Look deep I say, beyond the surface and see if the foundation of the tower is My Love for it is only on this foundation that somebody can claim that they serve me. Listen deep, I say, beyond their words into the heart for only there you will know the voice of My true shepherds. Many are deceived into believing that they must revere and follow the successful pastors. I release you from this deception. Look deep and ask of Me and My Spirit will speak to you. Why have you not sought of Me? Hear My voice and seek Me and I will lead you”.

larry wilson 's [australia] revelation/edification
 
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I am not a moderator or admin on here, so I can not speak for them.

But for me, there are so many problems with your theology I don't even know where to start.
You say this site is called talkJesus and we should be able to talk about Jesus. He does seem to be the main topic here.
However there are many Jesus', and all of them aren't from the Bible, there are several threads that are titled something like "Which Jesus do you follow?"
The Jesus that learned to be begotten and learned to become a god after he came to earth is not the Jesus of the Bible.
The Jesus I know created the universe and everything in it. Nothing that was created was created without him. He is the Alpha and Omega. He is "I AM",
He saw Satan cast from heaven. He is Emmanuel (God with a us). He is the ONLY begotten Son of God. We are all sons (small s ) of God. But he is the ONLY begotten.
All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. It could be true, that if we didn't sin, we wouldn't die. But the Bible says ALL (except Jesus) have sinned.
We were born into sin. There is none righteous, not one. So without Jesus, all of us will end up in the Lake of Fire (the second death).
If we could keep from sinning on our own, why would we even need Jesus? We are created in his likeness, or his image. A scale model car is created in the image of a
real car, but it won't get you to Mexico. We are not created exactly like him, if we were, we wouldn't need him. We could be our own God.
Jesus wasn't "ministering from heaven" while he was on the Earth, he was flesh and blood just like us. He was tempted just like us. He got tired and hungry just like us.
He bled just like us. The Bible says any Spirit that doesn't confess Jesus came in the flesh and was resurrected in the flesh is the spirit of the anti-christ.
Remaining alive, is not remain alive in this body. Jesus says even if we die we will live again. Several verses in the Bible say we will get a new body, not of flesh.
I could say more, but this isn't an attack on you. You're probably a nice lady, you seem sincere in your beliefs. Unfortunately they are not Biblical.
Jesus ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. Only Jesus is worthy to sit there.

As for Jesus "disappearing". Perhaps I am looking at the wrong verses?
(NASB)
John 5:13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place.
(KJV)
John 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.

(NASB)
Luke 4:28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things;
Luke 4:29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.
Luke 4:30 But passing through their midst, He went His way.
(KJV)
Luk 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luk 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
Luk 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

(NASB)
John 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
(KJV)
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

But none these say he disappeared.
 
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