T.U.L.I.P. revisted

[B-A-C]

As most everyone who has been on TalkJesus the last 12 years or so knows, I'm not a fan of Calvinism. I'm not a fan of TULIP either. But there are parts of it I agree with.
If you believe Wikipedia TULIP is what makes someone a Protestant. Of course the majority of Protestants don't believe in most of the 5 points of TULIP.

So... what does TULIP stand for?

T - Total Depravity

For the most part, this simply means we are spiritually dead. No one can be spiritually "born again" (born of the Spirit) without Jesus and without the Holy Spirit.
..so good, so far.. we all agree on that much. But some believe we can't even ask God for salvation. Other's believe we "must" ask God for salvation.
This is where the big conflict on this point comes in.
-- verses used to support this are... Eph 2:1-6; and John 6:44;

U - Unconditional Election

This also has two parts. First, God chooses who will be saved and who won't be (predestination). Second, there are no conditions to this salvation.
It seems for the most part Baptists and some CofE/Episcopalians are mostly the ones who believe in predestination, almost all other denominations don't.
I don't know of a single Pentecostal denomination that does. The "no conditions" for salvation is another sticking point. Arminians would say there's nothing you
can do to earn salvation, however the conditions for remaining in salvation start after you get saved.
-- verses used to support this are.. John 15:5; John 15:16;

L - Limited Atonement

This means salvation isn't for everyone. It goes along with predestination. God chooses who will be saved, and who won't. Jesus's atonement is only limited to those
who God chooses. The Arminians would agree that Jesus's atonement is only for those who choose Jesus, but they would disagree that God's chooses most of the world
not be saved. This comes down to is it your decision that saves you, or God''s decision.
-- verses used to support this are... Acts 20:28; John 10:10; and John 10:15;

I - Irresistible Grace

This means you cannot refuse God. Again, this comes down to free-will, and predestination. Some say if God picks you to be saved, there's nothing you can do to go
against it, it's not your choice, it's not your decision. You can't fight God, (many believe you won't even want to). The Arminians would say people resist God all the time.
Everytime we sin, we are resisting God. God doesn't make anyone sin.
-- verses used to support this are... John 6:37; Acts 9:6;

P - Preservation of the Saints

This is basically OSAS (Once saved, always saved). This is the belief that you cannot lose your salvation. This is closely tied to the others, because if you have no
say in your salvation and you can't resist God, then obviously you can't decide to fall away at some later point. The Arminians would of course disagree with this.
One point here. Even if you don't have say if your salvation, and God chooses you not to be saved. He may choose to make it look you are saved and allow you to believe
you are saved for a period of time (possibly even until death).
-- verses used to support this are... John 10:28; John 6:39; Rom 8:37-39;

Now no doubt there are some verses I have left out. But do these verses really say what they are interpreted to say in the verses above? Let the study begin.

 

[KittyLinda]

L - Limited Atonement

This means salvation isn't for everyone. It goes along with predestination. God chooses who will be saved, and who won't. Jesus's atonement is only limited to those
who God chooses. The Arminians would agree that Jesus's atonement is only for those who choose Jesus, but they would disagree that God's chooses most of the world
not be saved. This comes down to is it your decision that saves you, or God''s decision.
-- verses used to support this are... Acts 20:28; John 10:10; and John 10:15;

All of them are false, but how could someone say they are Christians and believe in Limited Atonement. This is usually the one I pick first when I debate those Calvinists. It just shows you how people believe in man-made doctrine and not the bible.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (KJV: Hebrews 2:9)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (KJV: 1 John 2:2)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL , to be testified in due time. (KJV: 1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (KJV: Revelation 3:20)

 

[Curtis]

All of them are false, but how could someone say they are Christians and believe in Limited Atonement. This is usually the one I pick first when I debate those Calvinists. It just shows you how people believe in man-made doctrine and not the bible.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (KJV: Hebrews 2:9)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (KJV: 1 John 2:2)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL , to be testified in due time. (KJV: 1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (KJV: Revelation 3:20)

Yes, Jesus died for "ALL" men but not all men will be saved.

If Jesus stands at the door and knocks unless a man hears his voice, and opens the door Jesus will not come in.

 

[Tanya]

As most everyone who has been on TalkJesus the last 12 years or so knows, I'm not a fan of Calvinism. I'm not a fan of TULIP either. But there are parts of it I agree with.
If you believe Wikipedia TULIP is what makes someone a Protestant. Of course the majority of Protestants don't believe in most of the 5 points of TULIP.

So... what does TULIP stand for?

T - Total Depravity

For the most part, this simply means we are spiritually dead. No one can be spiritually "born again" (born of the Spirit) without Jesus and without the Holy Spirit.
..so good, so far.. we all agree on that much. But some believe we can't even ask God for salvation. Other's believe we "must" ask God for salvation.
This is where the big conflict on this point comes in.
-- verses used to support this are... Eph 2:1-6; and John 6:44;

U - Unconditional Election

This also has two parts. First, God chooses who will be saved and who won't be (predestination). Second, there are no conditions to this salvation.
It seems for the most part Baptists and some CofE/Episcopalians are mostly the ones who believe in predestination, almost all other denominations don't.
I don't know of a single Pentecostal denomination that does. The "no conditions" for salvation is another sticking point. Arminians would say there's nothing you
can do to earn salvation, however the conditions for remaining in salvation start after you get saved.
-- verses used to support this are.. John 15:5; John 15:16;

L - Limited Atonement

This means salvation isn't for everyone. It goes along with predestination. God chooses who will be saved, and who won't. Jesus's atonement is only limited to those
who God chooses. The Arminians would agree that Jesus's atonement is only for those who choose Jesus, but they would disagree that God's chooses most of the world
not be saved. This comes down to is it your decision that saves you, or God''s decision.
-- verses used to support this are... Acts 20:28; John 10:10; and John 10:15;

I - Irresistible Grace

This means you cannot refuse God. Again, this comes down to free-will, and predestination. Some say if God picks you to be saved, there's nothing you can do to go
against it, it's not your choice, it's not your decision. You can't fight God, (many believe you won't even want to). The Arminians would say people resist God all the time.
Everytime we sin, we are resisting God. God doesn't make anyone sin.
-- verses used to support this are... John 6:37; Acts 9:6;

P - Preservation of the Saints

This is basically OSAS (Once saved, always saved). This is the belief that you cannot lose your salvation. This is closely tied to the others, because if you have no
say in your salvation and you can't resist God, then obviously you can't decide to fall away at some later point. The Arminians would of course disagree with this.
One point here. Even if you don't have say if your salvation, and God chooses you not to be saved. He may choose to make it look you are saved and allow you to believe
you are saved for a period of time (possibly even until death).
-- verses used to support this are... John 10:28; John 6:39; Rom 8:37-39;

Now no doubt there are some verses I have left out. But do these verses really say what they are interpreted to say in the verses above? Let the study begin.

I'm scratching my head so if what this says is "actually" truth," which I don't believe it is for all the people who believe in predestination please answer me this John 3:16 For God so loved the "world" that He gave His only begotten son that "WHOSOEVER" BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The only thing I know is that the Lord is not limited to time, space, etc., He is eternal. So the Lord had foreknowledge of "who" would come to Him and who would not. That's my take. The Bible verse that says The Spirit will testify with the spirit of the believer that what He says is true. So I neither understand nor believe all the legality that some people believe they have to follow.

 

[B-A-C]

Let's start with "T". The main verse usually given here is ...

John 6:44
(AMPC) No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
(ASV) No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
(CSB) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
(GNB) People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me; and I will raise them to life on the last day.
(Greek NT TR) ουδεις δυναται ελθειν προς με εαν μη ο πατηρ ο πεμψας με ελκυση αυτον και εγω αναστησω αυτον τη εσχατη ημερα
(GW) People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me brings them to me. I will bring these people back to life on the last day.
(HCSB) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
(ISV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
(KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(KJVA) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(MKJV) No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
(NAS77) "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
(NASB) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
(NIrV) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me brings him. Then I will raise him up on the last day.
(NIV) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
(NLT) For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
(RV) No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Hard to argue with that one. So what's the problem? Some person turn this around and say, if God draws them near, they will definitely be saved. Yet none of the verses above say that.
People use this verse to support predestination, but it's possible God draws "all" men. Some just refuse to accept Him.
The main two passages that cause conflict with this ideology are...

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So it seems God wants everyone to be saved. Now is everything always 100% one way? I personally don't believe so. Sometimes God does have a specific purpose for some people.

Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17; For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18; So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19; You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20; On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21; Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22; What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This is a problematic passage for both sides. It seems to say God makes some people, just so He can destroy them. He has mercy and compassion on some, but not for others.

On the other hand... why did God do this?
"THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." ... so then this could be taken again that God draws "all" men to Him at one time or another.
Finally,

Romans 9:22
(AMPC) What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction? [Pro_16:4]
(ASV) What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
(CSB) And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
(GNB) And the same is true of what God has done. He wanted to show his anger and to make his power known. But he was very patient in enduring those who were the objects of his anger, who were doomed to destruction.
(Greek NT TR) ει δε θελων ο θεος ενδειξασθαι την οργην και γνωρισαι το δυνατον αυτου ηνεγκεν εν πολλη μακροθυμια σκευη οργης κατηρτισμενα εις απωλειαν
(GW) If God wants to demonstrate his anger and reveal his power, he can do it. But can't he be extremely patient with people who are objects of his anger because they are headed for destruction?
(HCSB) And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
(ISV) Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction?
(KJV) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(KJVA) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(MKJV) What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;
(MSG) If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure
(NAS77) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
(NASB) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
(NIrV) What if God chose to show his great anger? What if he chose to make his power known? That is why he put up with people he was angry with. They had been made to be destroyed.
(NIV) What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
(NLT) In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
(RV) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:

It seems Paul is not making a theological statement here. But rather asking the question... "what if". This could be taken as Paul doesn't know for sure, he is just asking a hypothetical question.

 

[KittyLinda]

Yes, Jesus died for "ALL" men but not all men will be saved.

If Jesus stands at the door and knocks unless a man hears his voice, and opens the door Jesus will not come in.

Of course, but those Calvinists believe Jesus died only for the "elect." that you have no part in accepting or rejecting God. People need to accept and believe, or they are not saved. God is not a rapist who forces his love on anyone.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (KJV: Revelation 22:17)

 

[PloughBoy]

Of course, but those Calvinists believe Jesus died only for the "elect." that you have no part in accepting or rejecting God. People need to accept and believe, or they are not saved. God is not a rapist who forces his love on anyone.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (KJV: Revelation 22:17)

True, God is not a "Rapist" who forces his love on anyone". He is "GOD"! And if I was GOD, I might choose you, as My Queen, with a "Grace" That, would be " irresistible"! And you would not refuse, And My Will, would become your will, and nothing would be by force, but drawn by the express Love that I extend out to you. And that Love would overwhelm you so that, it has become "Irresistible" "like a Moth drawn to a flame".

 

[Rockerduck]

Hi KittyLinda,
Matthew 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.

God calls all but, too many reject God. I've seen it. Some have told me they don't need God and they haven't committed any sin to repent of.

Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I've had some start crying after hearing a Bible passage that talked to them and accepted Jesus as Savior.

Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We find this word "elect" in the New Testament many times and always refers to Gods people, saved, born again, born from above, saints. So Christ did die for the elect, which is all who accept Jesus Christ as savior

KittyLinda says: "Of course, but those Calvinists believe"

Mathew 7 :1-2 - “Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. 2 You’ll receive the same judgment you give. Whatever you deal out will be dealt out to you.

 

[PloughBoy]

A lot of people, think just because they speak words out of their mouths, people are supposed to believe the words coming out of their mouths! People grow up in this world, from a kid and learn that people are liars, and go at great length to tell lies, children know that people lie! To get what they want! They've get their first lessons in lying is with their parents, in all kinds of "avenues. Lies, get you out of trouble, watch mommy lie to daddy, giddy to mmmy and the beats goes on. "Christmas lies, from "Santa" to the Donkey traveling,carrying Mary to Jerusalem", "Fairytales" to "Dream Babies" and "Ken Dolls" lifestyles"! Now do you, think somebody who knows that people are liars is going to sale them a another "Fairtale story, About a God, they have never seen, a God who they don't know, a God who voice they have not heard! I would not believe one word coming out of your mouth, My mother did not raise a fool! And I told God, if you are real, you have to reveal yourself to me, because trust none of those Church people, liars , drinkers of alcohol, a bunch of "fornicators, sleeping around with one another, spouses, Female Sunday School Teacher, try to make me sleep with her, Can't tell no Body, be cause these are the holy people, and they will not believe me. pastor going with the Secretary! And they think we are dumb kids and no not know anything! Now here these people coming thinking they are leading People to Christ and wanting credit, if you Think your words are drawing People to Jesus Christ, you are greatly deceived still! God Do Not. need You! To drawn anything, The Pride that is in you! From your father! Continue to rise up in you! To take"Some" credit for People coming to "Christ"! "God does the calling, God does the Choosing, God does the Drawing, God does the revealing! You have nothing to Boast about, I will saying it again, you have "absolutely Nothing to do, in anyone's Salvation"! The Problem with you, is you are still in The "Adolescent" age of your "Spiritual Childhood"! Then when the "Spiritual Mature" points these points out, you go into a "Full Blown". Child of God "temper Tantrum"! And Go to "Crying" how wrong "The Adults" are! Like the person who calls out about "Their Constitutional Rights" but never even Read the "Constitution" or The "preambles"! But they know.

(Isaiah 6:9).
8“Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. 9“Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—that you may do all these abominations? 11“Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” declares the LORD.

(Matthew 13:15).
…9And He replied: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. 11Then I asked: “How long, O Lord?” And He replied: “Until cities lie in ruins without an inhabitant, until the houses are left unoccupied, and the land is desolate and ravaged,

Oh, I know you are saying , this cannot be Jesus and the Father talking like that! You see, "you don't understand, Let. me tell you what He means! let Me, explain it to you! "many will say: like you cannot read.
The same person who told the "Santa" and "The Marital Barbie & Ken Syndrome" Stories! With "The Tapestry of The Lights of "Christianity" in The "Cerebration of Christmas". "Diamond Rings", Ear Rings, "Pandora Braclets", and "Mistleoes" a "Stolen Kiss" under a "Poisonous Plant". And the myth of the plant I will not discuss.

 

[KittyLinda]

True, God is not a "Rapist" who forces his love on anyone". He is "GOD"! And if I was GOD, I might choose you, as My Queen, with a "Grace" That, would be " irresistible"! And you would not refuse, And My Will, would become your will, and nothing would be by force, but drawn by the express Love that I extend out to you. And that Love would overwhelm you so that, it has become "Irresistible" "like a Moth drawn to a flame".

Calvinism makes God worse than a rapist, but that is Calvin's God, not mine. It is like going to people in town and you go with a gun to kill someone and let others live because you love them. It provides no basis for why God chose you and not your mother in law. It is garbage. It is Nazism in a nutshell.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; 25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; (Proverbs 1:24-26)

 

[KittyLinda]

Hi KittyLinda,
Matthew 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.

God calls all but, too many reject God. I've seen it. Some have told me they don't need God and they haven't committed any sin to repent of.

Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I've had some start crying after hearing a Bible passage that talked to them and accepted Jesus as Savior.

Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We find this word "elect" in the New Testament many times and always refers to Gods people, saved, born again, born from above, saints. So Christ did die for the elect, which is all who accept Jesus Christ as savior

KittyLinda says: "Of course, but those Calvinists believe"

Mathew 7 :1-2 - “Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. 2 You’ll receive the same judgment you give. Whatever you deal out will be dealt out to you.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)

 

[KittyLinda]

I'm scratching my head so if what this says is "actually" truth," which I don't believe it is for all the people who believe in predestination please answer me this John 3:16 For God so loved the "world" that He gave His only begotten son that "WHOSOEVER" BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The only thing I know is that the Lord is not limited to time, space, etc., He is eternal. So the Lord had foreknowledge of "who" would come to Him and who would not. That's my take. The Bible verse that says The Spirit will testify with the spirit of the believer that what He says is true. So I neither understand nor believe all the legality that some people believe they have to follow.

People want to believe whatever they want to believe.

All of them are false. I'm not even half a point lol. ZERO.

 

[PloughBoy]

Some people And Christians, want God to follow and walk under their umbrella so bad, They want Him to be so sweet and kind and gentle, Some Have place a "illusionary in the place in their mind called "what I want it to be" And place God, there in the store room, for the time of "what I want". for Jesus also said this, in ,The Galilean Vernacular".
Remember He is I not like us, He doesn't think like us, Our thoughts are not His thoughts! So when you think, Do not think you can bend His will! Forget it! So concerning His plan of saving people no matter how you discern The Writting, we still come up short, Jesus has explain this fully, but many are still dull of hearing,for these things has to be Revealed and not learn, for how could a "finite mind" understand the "salvation Plans of a "Infinite God".

American Standard Version
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

New International Version
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


English Standard Version
he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

New International Version
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” f
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

You cannot determine, what the word "predestination " by a worldly Definition of a world view but must place it in "etymology" concerning biblical truth". That is why one must chose "ISBE"! For Biblical Definitions!

 

[B-A-C]

For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

NASB
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Those He foreknew. -- He (fore)knew they were going to make the choice, but He didn't make the choice for them.
He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. -- But once they made the decision, it was "predestined" they would become like Jesus.

Don't put the cart before the horse here. They made the choice themselves first.

Looks like everyone jumped ahead to "U" without me.

 

[B-A-C]

Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

I believe this is one of those verses that you always need to pair with the next verse that comes after it.

Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

 

[B-A-C]

was GOD, I might choose you, as My Queen, with a "Grace" That, would be " irresistible"! And you would not refuse, And My Will, would become your will

Some people can be pretty creepy sometimes. I think a lot of us might be glad you aren't God.

Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

 

[B-A-C]

I didn't think this thread would be as much trouble as it seems it is. I thought if there was any problem, it would be with letter P (OSAS).
So do we stop here, or do we press on?

I've been on TalkJesus for a pretty long time now. Over a decade. I sometimes pray before I start a thread. Yes "sometimes", and
I know it should be always, but if I'm being honest here... it isn't always. It seems some threads are started just to start debate.
Other threads are started just to keep the peace and say what everyone wants to hear and agrees on. But hopefully there is a middle ground.
We don't all have to agree on everything, but can we at least discuss these things?

.. so I prayed for an answer. I feel I am supposed to go on. But I sincerely hope (and pray!) that if someone doesn't agree with what we are saying, we can still love them. I know it seems that these discussions don't change anything, but sometimes they do. I have even had my opinion changed on a few things. But more than changing someone who already has their mind made up, maybe there are others who don't have their minds "made up" and this will help them.

But I do feel we have quit telling people how "dumb" they are. Maybe not in those exact words, but we have to quit telling people they are babies or immature because they don't know the Bible like a scholar. The truth is, some of them are babies. Some of them need milk, and that's Ok. We don't need to insult them for that, we need to love them. There are verses that say certain parts of scripture are hidden from some people. There are other verses that say the Holy Spirit will "reveal all things" to us. In His time. So maybe it's true you know something someone else doesn't. Maybe it's even true God gave you some divine revelation. That's great! So instead of insulting people because they don't have the same revelation, share it with us. That's all I'm trying to do here... share what I know, and sometimes just what "I think".

2Tim 2:23; But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
2Tim 2:24; The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2Tim 2:25; with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2Tim 2:26; and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

I am going to pray about this a little more, but Lord willing, I will continue with the letter U.

 

[Curtis]

Rom 9:17; For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

We normally when we read this we think it means that Pharaoh was born just for this purpose. The words, "I have raised you up" mean "to resuscitate from death" or in other words the Lord God protected Pharaoh from death from the plagues that came upon Egypt. Why would God protect Pharaoh? So that God's name would be Glorified over the power of Pharaoh throughout the land and that he Pharaoh would see it.

 

[Curtis]

Rom 9:21; Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22; What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

If God is the "creator" of all things would he not have the right to make some vessels for honor and the others for destruction?

Thank God no one was created just for destruction for all men are given the right to choose who they will serve.

My question would be why would God endure much patience on the vessels for destruction if that was their purpose?

 

[PloughBoy]

NASB
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Those He foreknew. -- He (fore)knew they were going to make the choice, but He didn't make the choice for them.
He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. -- But once they made the decision, it was "predestined" they would become like Jesus.

Don't put the cart before the horse here. They made the choice themselves first.

Looks like everyone jumped ahead to "U" without me.

So I see you like the "worlds" definition" of the word "foreknew" instead of "placing it into "Biblical etymology". Yes I do think the worlds view of God is weak, and they do not recognize God as God but have created a imaginary God in their minds and has confer a Being that is Similar to themselves. And place him in their "Terminology" of the wisdom of this world. But I will declare to you this day; the foreknew the world understands is by worldly wisdom, God had to take "a look through time to see sometime and behold its outcome.
Well the God I know or The God of "The Holy Scriputers" do not have to look no where to know the out come of "anything" for The God I know has determine what is to be before time even existed! Even before the drawing "blue prints" of Heaven or Angels and the entire universe. I see, you do not know how great Our God is! OurGod does not have to look nowhere, He declares and "ordain" of what is to be, before The Foundation that Created The World! Oh I wish I could say it like it should be! I just cannot find the words!

The word in your definition of Foreknew. Is worldly! That word in GOD terms is He Created The outcome what is to be! And who is to be in it! By a Divine. creation! "for He is The Potter and we are The Clay"! he shape us into what He wants us to be. "Now is that not "Good News"? He Chose you , and you didn't have to choose Him. Now what Love has The Father be stored unto YOU! Now Greatful are you. Do you thank Him for choosing you? And you deserved no credit whatsoever. And do the tears fall down your face of the humbleness to realizes such a grace, He looked on you before anything even existed in the entire universe, before The Angels and before Heaven existed. His mind was on you "B-A-C" now you look back into His Drawing Room, Yes you! Before there was even The Halls of Time! His mind was on you ,Shaping you, molding you into The Image of His only begotten Son.
You don't have to believe me, but I do say, will you think about what I said about our God Who is our Father, Jesus also declared it to be.

PS. And if you feel like throwing these words into the trash can of your mind. And label me a "Hypocrite" I will wear it as a "Badge of Honor" and will wear it in the Judgement Halls of Jesus Christ"!