Temporal Justification

[S.T.Ranger]

The debate between Catholics and Protestants has raged for centuries over Justification. Catholics say man is justified not by faith only, but by works also, and it is hard to argue with that...seeing that they have inspired Scripture that teaches us that. Protestants would say, "But this is a temporal context, between man and man, not God and man," which is true for the large part, however, Abraham was justified by his willingness to offer up Isaac as commanded, and that is not between man and man, but between God and Abraham. That does not nullify the fact that the context of James 2 is temporal, else we must equally conclude that men can be justified in an eternal context by giving clothing to those who are cold, and food to those who are hungry.

Now here is the question that may surprise some: why would we view Romans 4 as an eternal context?

I would suggest that we cannot, but must view this passage as identical in nature to James, speaking of Temporal Justification because...the declaration of righteousness is based on what Abraham did, just as we see in James 2. It is given as an example of the Eternal Justification Paul speaks of here:

Romans 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

And this Justification is eternal, based on what Christ did, not what we do. One might argue "But we believed!" This is true, but you would not have believed had God not enlightened your darkened mind to the truth of the Gospel. That you believe is part of...the gift.

And I would point out that despite the fact that Abraham was justified by belief, faith, and works, we can see that doesn't change the conclusion of Scripture from the eternal Perspective...

Romans 3:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Galatians 3:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

And I will point out that the Scripture was given to men after Abraham was "declared righteous." RIghteous from a temporal perspective, but from the eternal perspective of God he was in the same boat as everyone else, with the notable exception of Noah.

Abraham died still awaiting Eternal Redemption, which was obtained by Christ through His death and it is that Sacrifice by which Abraham received Reconciliation and Atonement:

Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Thanks, lol, that smiley better fits the tone I was looking for, a little humor (very little, but humor nonetheless...).

God bless.

 

[Quantrill]

S.T.Ranger

I do not see either (James 2) or (Rom. 4) as temporal, as you say.

As far as Abraham not receiving eternal redemption until the Cross, I disagree. He had eternal redemption already. He obtained it when he believed. (Gen. 15:6) It doesn't matter that the Cross was yet future. In God's eyes Christ was slain already. (Rev. 13:8)

Quantrill

 

[S.T.Ranger]

S.T.Ranger

I do not see either (James 2) or (Rom. 4) as temporal, as you say.

As far as Abraham not receiving eternal redemption until the Cross, I disagree. He had eternal redemption already. He obtained it when he believed. (Gen. 15:6) It doesn't matter that the Cross was yet future. In God's eyes Christ was slain already. (Rev. 13:8)

Quantrill

You are not alone in this belief, it is held by most. However, we see a distinct difference between the Justification declared of men in Old Testament Economies and Justification accomplished by Christ. As a first text I would share this:


Romans 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Paul makes this statement on the heels of speaking about justification among men, which is temporal in the sense that the justification is based on what they do. In Romans 2:13-16 we see that it is not the one who hears (and this is directed towards Jews, who, unlike the Gentiles had received the Word of God (Romans 3:1-2) but the one who is a doer of the Law. Now we both know that this cannot be a reference to Eternal Justification because the New Testament makes it clear that men cannot be Justified by the works of the Law. Now we either have a conflicting statement in Scripture or...we have a differing context. We see in v. 10 that it is written, there is none righteous...no, not one.

But wait, doesn't Scripture also say that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed? It does, but again the context is temporal because men are not Justified on an eternal basis believing in the veiled Gospel of Jesus Christ, but justified on an eternal basis for believing on Jesus Christ. This is the only means one can be eternally Justified. Paul and James are not in conflict because both speak in a temporal context. Here is why Abraham was justified before God:


Romans 4:16-22 King James Version (KJV)

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


First note the "promise" of v.16: A basic truth is that Abraham died not receiving the promises that he believed (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40).

Secondly, note what it is he is believing. While one might view belief in God's promise to make him a father of many nations and to give him a seed through which all nations/families of the earth would be blessed is a basis for Eternal Justification, I do not. Believing this and believing that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again are not the same. If we created this parallel we would have to acknowledge that all Jews who also believe that God will at some point in the future bless all nations/families of the earth are also justified. We would also have to view all Jews still awaiting the Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures to be saved. And I know of no-one who seriously presents that as a possibility, rather, they are designated as rejecters of the Christ of the Hebrew Scriptures. Galatians 3:8 tells us why Abraham was justified, and while you and I can understand this in a context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Abraham had no knowledge of God manifesting in flesh to die in the stead of the sinner.

Third, the Scripture that states "...there is none righteous, no not one" was written after Abraham was declared righteous, so Abraham is included in who is not justified. Because we know he was justified by belief, faith, and works (and in that order) we either see a contradiction or...a differing context.

Fourth, we see numerous people mentioned in Scripture who were also declared righteous but this does not nullify the fact they died awaiting the fulfillment of God's promises, namely Redemption through the Messiah. Zacharias and Elisabeth, for example, were righteous before God for the same reason those in Romans 2:13-15 were declared righteous (see Luke 1:5-6). But they still needed to be redeemed from the Law, which didn't take place until God sent His Son (Galatians 4:4-6).

Fifth, we see a contrast drawn between the fact that none were/are righteous and Justification by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Again, no contradiction between Romans 2:13-15 but a differing context. We see in v.21 "...now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested," the implication that this takes place at this time (a reference to Christ and His Work). The righteousness which is through faith in Christ which was not available to men prior to His coming (Galatians 3:23-26) as seen in v.22. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are therefore in need of Jesus Christ, and this includes Abraham.

Note that it is when God set forth Jesus Christ (v.25) that men are freely justified by His grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. His righteousness is declared "at this time." The implication being...the righteousness declared before was not the righteousness now being declared. And when we consider why Abraham was justified it is easy to see why Paul makes this distinction.

We need to interpret Romans 4 and Paul's statement of justification in light of Romans 3, rather than the other way around. Note in v.25 "...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past," which corresponds to numerous passages which make it clear that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed by the Sacrifice of Christ and not a moment before. The most notable statement that states both that Eternal Redemption was accomplished and obtained by Christ through His death and that the sins of men aforetime were redeemed by that Sacrifice is the following:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, Abraham died not having received the promises, and that includes the promise of Remission of sins on an eternal basis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 10:15-18) and his eternal inheritance (1 Peter 1:3-4). The sacrifices he offered up obtained remission of sins and atonement in a temporal context. Only the Sacrifice of Christ obtains remission of sins and atonement on an eternal basis.

As I said, many equate the justification ascribed to Old Testament Saints as eternal, and from the perspective that their eternal destinies were secure by grace through faith we might acknowledge this in that sense. But, these all died in faith not having received these promises, nor were they made perfect (complete in regards to remission of sins: Hebrews 10:1-4; Hebrews 10:10-14; Hebrews 11:40; Hebrews 12:23). What we would have to see is Scripture that supports the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the Old Testament Saint as well as an explanation as to how they received this promise despite Scripture's statement that they died not receiving it.

As to whether James 2 is temporal or not, that is a little easier to show, because if we say that Abraham was justified on an eternal basis by faith and works then we must equally conclude James is advocating Eternal Justification by giving clothing to those who are cold and food to those who are hungry. THis would stand as blatant contradiction to numerous statements Paul makes which makes it clear that no flesh shall be justified by works. Romans 4 and James 2 are temporal and speak about justification among men in the temporal sense, whereas when we see a statement that is soteriological...


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


...we see that salvation is by grace through faith...alone. No works. But, men are justified in a temporal sense by their works. But we have to distinguish between what is temporal and Eternal and distinguish between justification and salvation itself.


God bless.

 

[Quantrill]

You are not alone in this belief, it is held by most. However, we see a distinct difference between the Justification declared of men in Old Testament Economies and Justification accomplished by Christ. As a first text I would share this:


Romans 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Paul makes this statement on the heels of speaking about justification among men, which is temporal in the sense that the justification is based on what they do. In Romans 2:13-16 we see that it is not the one who hears (and this is directed towards Jews, who, unlike the Gentiles had received the Word of God (Romans 3:1-2) but the one who is a doer of the Law. Now we both know that this cannot be a reference to Eternal Justification because the New Testament makes it clear that men cannot be Justified by the works of the Law. Now we either have a conflicting statement in Scripture or...we have a differing context. We see in v. 10 that it is written, there is none righteous...no, not one.

But wait, doesn't Scripture also say that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed? It does, but again the context is temporal because men are not Justified on an eternal basis believing in the veiled Gospel of Jesus Christ, but justified on an eternal basis for believing on Jesus Christ. This is the only means one can be eternally Justified. Paul and James are not in conflict because both speak in a temporal context. Here is why Abraham was justified before God:


Romans 4:16-22 King James Version (KJV)

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


First note the "promise" of v.16: A basic truth is that Abraham died not receiving the promises that he believed (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40).

Secondly, note what it is he is believing. While one might view belief in God's promise to make him a father of many nations and to give him a seed through which all nations/families of the earth would be blessed is a basis for Eternal Justification, I do not. Believing this and believing that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again are not the same. If we created this parallel we would have to acknowledge that all Jews who also believe that God will at some point in the future bless all nations/families of the earth are also justified. We would also have to view all Jews still awaiting the Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures to be saved. And I know of no-one who seriously presents that as a possibility, rather, they are designated as rejecters of the Christ of the Hebrew Scriptures. Galatians 3:8 tells us why Abraham was justified, and while you and I can understand this in a context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Abraham had no knowledge of God manifesting in flesh to die in the stead of the sinner.

Third, the Scripture that states "...there is none righteous, no not one" was written after Abraham was declared righteous, so Abraham is included in who is not justified. Because we know he was justified by belief, faith, and works (and in that order) we either see a contradiction or...a differing context.

Fourth, we see numerous people mentioned in Scripture who were also declared righteous but this does not nullify the fact they died awaiting the fulfillment of God's promises, namely Redemption through the Messiah. Zacharias and Elisabeth, for example, were righteous before God for the same reason those in Romans 2:13-15 were declared righteous (see Luke 1:5-6). But they still needed to be redeemed from the Law, which didn't take place until God sent His Son (Galatians 4:4-6).

Fifth, we see a contrast drawn between the fact that none were/are righteous and Justification by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Again, no contradiction between Romans 2:13-15 but a differing context. We see in v.21 "...now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested," the implication that this takes place at this time (a reference to Christ and His Work). The righteousness which is through faith in Christ which was not available to men prior to His coming (Galatians 3:23-26) as seen in v.22. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are therefore in need of Jesus Christ, and this includes Abraham.

Note that it is when God set forth Jesus Christ (v.25) that men are freely justified by His grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. His righteousness is declared "at this time." The implication being...the righteousness declared before was not the righteousness now being declared. And when we consider why Abraham was justified it is easy to see why Paul makes this distinction.

We need to interpret Romans 4 and Paul's statement of justification in light of Romans 3, rather than the other way around. Note in v.25 "...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past," which corresponds to numerous passages which make it clear that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed by the Sacrifice of Christ and not a moment before. The most notable statement that states both that Eternal Redemption was accomplished and obtained by Christ through His death and that the sins of men aforetime were redeemed by that Sacrifice is the following:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, Abraham died not having received the promises, and that includes the promise of Remission of sins on an eternal basis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 10:15-18) and his eternal inheritance (1 Peter 1:3-4). The sacrifices he offered up obtained remission of sins and atonement in a temporal context. Only the Sacrifice of Christ obtains remission of sins and atonement on an eternal basis.

As I said, many equate the justification ascribed to Old Testament Saints as eternal, and from the perspective that their eternal destinies were secure by grace through faith we might acknowledge this in that sense. But, these all died in faith not having received these promises, nor were they made perfect (complete in regards to remission of sins: Hebrews 10:1-4; Hebrews 10:10-14; Hebrews 11:40; Hebrews 12:23). What we would have to see is Scripture that supports the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the Old Testament Saint as well as an explanation as to how they received this promise despite Scripture's statement that they died not receiving it.

As to whether James 2 is temporal or not, that is a little easier to show, because if we say that Abraham was justified on an eternal basis by faith and works then we must equally conclude James is advocating Eternal Justification by giving clothing to those who are cold and food to those who are hungry. THis would stand as blatant contradiction to numerous statements Paul makes which makes it clear that no flesh shall be justified by works. Romans 4 and James 2 are temporal and speak about justification among men in the temporal sense, whereas when we see a statement that is soteriological...


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


...we see that salvation is by grace through faith...alone. No works. But, men are justified in a temporal sense by their works. But we have to distinguish between what is temporal and Eternal and distinguish between justification and salvation itself.


God bless.

You misunderstand (Rom. 2). In (Rom. 2) Paul is continuing to describe those who the wrath of God is against. (1:18) It is not describing the way Old Testament saints are justified. It is saying the law will judge you who claim you are keeping the law. And the wrath of God is against you because you hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Abraham and any other believer in the Old Testament would be justified by faith and righteousness imputed to him giving him therefore eternal life.

I am not buying this 'temporal' justification you speak of.

Quantrill

 

[Sue D.]

The Old Testament people had as much knowledge of God as they needed to accept Him -- the Galations 3:6 passage shows that. Abraham believed God -- His promises. Hebrews 11 shows all the ways that Abraham and others in the Old Testament believed. Their faith.

Much the same way that God gives us in many ways -- even in nature -- the fact of His existence. A person can see the orderliness of the world , etc.

It depends on what a person does with the 'light' he / she is given. What is in our hearts.

 

[norapture]

You are not alone in this belief, it is held by most. However, we see a distinct difference between the Justification declared of men in Old Testament Economies and Justification accomplished by Christ. As a first text I would share this:


Romans 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Paul makes this statement on the heels of speaking about justification among men, which is temporal in the sense that the justification is based on what they do. In Romans 2:13-16 we see that it is not the one who hears (and this is directed towards Jews, who, unlike the Gentiles had received the Word of God (Romans 3:1-2) but the one who is a doer of the Law. Now we both know that this cannot be a reference to Eternal Justification because the New Testament makes it clear that men cannot be Justified by the works of the Law. Now we either have a conflicting statement in Scripture or...we have a differing context. We see in v. 10 that it is written, there is none righteous...no, not one.

But wait, doesn't Scripture also say that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed? It does, but again the context is temporal because men are not Justified on an eternal basis believing in the veiled Gospel of Jesus Christ, but justified on an eternal basis for believing on Jesus Christ. This is the only means one can be eternally Justified. Paul and James are not in conflict because both speak in a temporal context. Here is why Abraham was justified before God:


Romans 4:16-22 King James Version (KJV)

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


First note the "promise" of v.16: A basic truth is that Abraham died not receiving the promises that he believed (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40).

Secondly, note what it is he is believing. While one might view belief in God's promise to make him a father of many nations and to give him a seed through which all nations/families of the earth would be blessed is a basis for Eternal Justification, I do not. Believing this and believing that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again are not the same. If we created this parallel we would have to acknowledge that all Jews who also believe that God will at some point in the future bless all nations/families of the earth are also justified. We would also have to view all Jews still awaiting the Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures to be saved. And I know of no-one who seriously presents that as a possibility, rather, they are designated as rejecters of the Christ of the Hebrew Scriptures. Galatians 3:8 tells us why Abraham was justified, and while you and I can understand this in a context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Abraham had no knowledge of God manifesting in flesh to die in the stead of the sinner.

Third, the Scripture that states "...there is none righteous, no not one" was written after Abraham was declared righteous, so Abraham is included in who is not justified. Because we know he was justified by belief, faith, and works (and in that order) we either see a contradiction or...a differing context.

Fourth, we see numerous people mentioned in Scripture who were also declared righteous but this does not nullify the fact they died awaiting the fulfillment of God's promises, namely Redemption through the Messiah. Zacharias and Elisabeth, for example, were righteous before God for the same reason those in Romans 2:13-15 were declared righteous (see Luke 1:5-6). But they still needed to be redeemed from the Law, which didn't take place until God sent His Son (Galatians 4:4-6).

Fifth, we see a contrast drawn between the fact that none were/are righteous and Justification by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Again, no contradiction between Romans 2:13-15 but a differing context. We see in v.21 "...now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested," the implication that this takes place at this time (a reference to Christ and His Work). The righteousness which is through faith in Christ which was not available to men prior to His coming (Galatians 3:23-26) as seen in v.22. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are therefore in need of Jesus Christ, and this includes Abraham.

Note that it is when God set forth Jesus Christ (v.25) that men are freely justified by His grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. His righteousness is declared "at this time." The implication being...the righteousness declared before was not the righteousness now being declared. And when we consider why Abraham was justified it is easy to see why Paul makes this distinction.

We need to interpret Romans 4 and Paul's statement of justification in light of Romans 3, rather than the other way around. Note in v.25 "...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past," which corresponds to numerous passages which make it clear that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed by the Sacrifice of Christ and not a moment before. The most notable statement that states both that Eternal Redemption was accomplished and obtained by Christ through His death and that the sins of men aforetime were redeemed by that Sacrifice is the following:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, Abraham died not having received the promises, and that includes the promise of Remission of sins on an eternal basis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 10:15-18) and his eternal inheritance (1 Peter 1:3-4). The sacrifices he offered up obtained remission of sins and atonement in a temporal context. Only the Sacrifice of Christ obtains remission of sins and atonement on an eternal basis.

As I said, many equate the justification ascribed to Old Testament Saints as eternal, and from the perspective that their eternal destinies were secure by grace through faith we might acknowledge this in that sense. But, these all died in faith not having received these promises, nor were they made perfect (complete in regards to remission of sins: Hebrews 10:1-4; Hebrews 10:10-14; Hebrews 11:40; Hebrews 12:23). What we would have to see is Scripture that supports the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the Old Testament Saint as well as an explanation as to how they received this promise despite Scripture's statement that they died not receiving it.

As to whether James 2 is temporal or not, that is a little easier to show, because if we say that Abraham was justified on an eternal basis by faith and works then we must equally conclude James is advocating Eternal Justification by giving clothing to those who are cold and food to those who are hungry. THis would stand as blatant contradiction to numerous statements Paul makes which makes it clear that no flesh shall be justified by works. Romans 4 and James 2 are temporal and speak about justification among men in the temporal sense, whereas when we see a statement that is soteriological...


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


...we see that salvation is by grace through faith...alone. No works. But, men are justified in a temporal sense by their works. But we have to distinguish between what is temporal and Eternal and distinguish between justification and salvation itself.


God bless.

Works of the law, no flesh will be justified
Works of faith- Is the only way a man will be justified.

These are not the same, so when Paul says not by works he mean works of the law.

And when James says a man is not justified by faith alone, but with works is faith made perfect, he is talking about works of faith.

 

[norapture]

Let me ask what James ask, can faith save a man without work?

James2:14

 

[Sue D.]

They go together. Faith 1st.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

You misunderstand (Rom. 2). In (Rom. 2) Paul is continuing to describe those who the wrath of God is against. (1:18) It is not describing the way Old Testament saints are justified.

It is a very clear statement:

Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


We aren't going to change the simple statements made:

1. One is not justified simply because they hear the Law (and this has specific relevance to the fact that Jews received the Oracles (Word) of God, not the Gentiles (Romans 3:1-2));

2. Those who do the Law shall be justified: can we really construe this to mean otherwise? Is Scripture in error here, men will not be justified by the Law?

3. Gentiles show the Law written on their hearts (this is an internal witness and revelation from God to men outside of the sphere of the Word of God) and do the things contained in the Law. This means that they judge each other based on what is written on their hearts.


The conclusion is that if Gentiles do in fact perform the works of the Law they are doers of the Law, not simply hearers...and they will be justified.

But not in an eternal context. They will still be judged (at the Great White Throne, in my view, that is what I primarily lean to):


Romans 2:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


It's very simple: those who do the works of the Law (written on their hearts by God) shall be justified. But if we impose an eternal context into this we miss the point. This shows how God bestows His grace on those who have not received direct revelation through the Word, Prophets, Preaching, etc. It looks back to those, during the Age of Law, who were outside that sphere. This conflicts with the popular (and erroneous) teaching that men can only go to Heaven if they hear the Gospel and embrace it. We have an entire Old Testament filled with men and women of faith who were not privy to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...because it was a Mystery not revealed to men (Romans 16:26-7; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). It was not even until the Prophets that a more concise Prophecy of Christ began to be given. So to impose the possibility of "trusting in Jesus Christ" not only lacks the first Scripture to support it, it denies the very Scripture that teaches...it simply wasn't the case. One cannot even kame a case for the disciples trusting in Christ:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Note that at this late date in Christ's Ministry that Scripture states He began at that time to give them the Gospel (v.21).

Note that Peter rejects the Gospel (v.22).

And we will see Peter try to keep Christ from the Cross with physical violence (Matthew 26:51-52; Mark 14:47; John 18:10-11), and when that fails...he abandons the Lord (Matthew 26:71-72).

The reason?


John 20:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


So what we need is an answer from Scripture to support the concept that Abraham had eternal life and that he did not need to be eternally redeemed by Christ. We need to see where the Atonement was imputed to Abraham. We need to see where we can support men being Reconciled to God and explain why this is not accomplished by Christ as Scripture states:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


When was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself? How were men reconciled before He manifested in the flesh? How did they become sons of God through the adoption of sins before they were redeemed from the Law (Galatians 4:4-6)?

It is saying the law will judge you who claim you are keeping the law.

It says that those who do the works of the Law will be justified. Only if someone tries to impose an eternal context into it do we see a conflict with Scripture. It's just a fact, men and women were justified by the works of the Law in a temporal context:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Why is this righteousness different from the righteousness of Abraham? Both are based on what they did...as opposed to what Christ did that men might be by the grace of God freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

And the wrath of God is against you because you hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Nothing about the Gentiles holding the truth in unrighteousness, they are doers of the Law. And the text is clear, not the hearers of the Law are justified, but the doers. They do not even have the Oracles of God yet they can be justified by being obedient to the Law written on their hearts. This is the grace of God.

Abraham and any other believer in the Old Testament would be justified by faith and righteousness imputed to him giving him therefore eternal life.

So show me that in Scripture, and address the points which show this isn't the case. Abraham died not receiving the promises. Those that equate Eternal Life with Temporal Justification are creating two ways by which a man can be saved. The Atonement was not applied prior to the Cross, though this is popularly taught and believed. We would have to see a Scriptural basis for it and it simply isn't there. We have only the doctrine of Catholics and Protestants that both equate being justified by what a man does with being Justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

I am not buying this 'temporal' justification you speak of.

Quantrill

I know, it's not for sale. It can only be had through diligent study.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Works of the law, no flesh will be justified

Then explain why Scripture states that those who do the works of the Law will be justified:


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Deny that Paul states "...the doers of the Law shall be justified."

You can't, no-one can. Where you are having a problem is that you are confusing this with an eternal context, which is what Paul contrasts this statement with:


Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Two entirely differing contexts.

Works of faith- Is the only way a man will be justified.

In a temporal context a man can be justified by "works of faith," but salvation in Christ has no works associated with it...at all. Not works of the Law, not works of faith...

...it is by grace alone:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

These are not the same, so when Paul says not by works he mean works of the law.

No, actually, when Paul speaks of no works he means no works at all.

Justification through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus is given freely based on what Christ did, not what men do. You don't get faith then have works and then you are justified, you are justified and then you have works. No different than we see with Abraham, who believed, had faith, and then had works (and in that order). But it was the grace of God which allowed Abraham to hear the promises that Abraham believed, which created the faith that told Abraham that if he sacrificed Isaac God would have to raise him from the dead to fulfill His promises. And that followed the belief by which Abraham was justified.

I know you mean well but you are in error about this, and you are denying a very simple statement in Scripture because you cannot distinguish the difference between an eternal context and a temporal:


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Here are two people justified because of their obedience to the Law:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Justified yet still in need of a Savior, and the Atonemnt, and Reconciliation, and the Promised Spirit.

And when James says a man is not justified by faith alone, but with works is faith made perfect, he is talking about works of faith.

No, he isn't. James is speaking in a temporal context and this means that the justification in view has a horizontal application, between men and men. Not a vertical application between God and man as Paul speaks of in Romans 4. THen we consider that prior to faith in Christ being available to men, when they are justified it is still justification based on their earthly existence, not their eternal standing with God. Abraham was justified by his belief. His belief is the basis of his faith. His faith is the basis of his works, and the specific works spoken of in James 2 is the willingness to offer up Isaac, so if you want to say Abraham is justified in an eternal context based on what he did, and call that a "work of faith, you can. It won't be correct, though. James' point is simple, just because someone professes something doesn't mean it's a reality.

And the biggest problem with making this an eternal context is that if Abraham was justified on an eternal basis for what he did (offering up Isaac), then we must equally conclude that one can be justified if they give clothing to the cold and food to the hungry. Both absurd, as I am sure you would agree.

Because Catholicism imposed an equation between Abraham's justification for his willingness to offer up Isaac and salvation itself they corrupt many other passages. Protestants are not much better because they too ignore that James 2 and Romans 4 are dealing with Justification...

...not salvation.

That is what they are actually arguing about, whether men are saved by faith alone or by faith and works, and the simple fact of the matter is that neither passages are saying Abraham was saved, but that he was...

...justified.


God bless.

 

[Sue D.]

Justification = God sees us through the blood of Christ -- just as if we'd never sinned.

Justification is part Of -- so -- yes Abraham was saved / justified.

 

[Quantrill]

It is a very clear statement:

Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


We aren't going to change the simple statements made:

1. One is not justified simply because they hear the Law (and this has specific relevance to the fact that Jews received the Oracles (Word) of God, not the Gentiles (Romans 3:1-2));

2. Those who do the Law shall be justified: can we really construe this to mean otherwise? Is Scripture in error here, men will not be justified by the Law?

3. Gentiles show the Law written on their hearts (this is an internal witness and revelation from God to men outside of the sphere of the Word of God) and do the things contained in the Law. This means that they judge each other based on what is written on their hearts.


The conclusion is that if Gentiles do in fact perform the works of the Law they are doers of the Law, not simply hearers...and they will be justified.

But not in an eternal context. They will still be judged (at the Great White Throne, in my view, that is what I primarily lean to):


Romans 2:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


It's very simple: those who do the works of the Law (written on their hearts by God) shall be justified. But if we impose an eternal context into this we miss the point. This shows how God bestows His grace on those who have not received direct revelation through the Word, Prophets, Preaching, etc. It looks back to those, during the Age of Law, who were outside that sphere. This conflicts with the popular (and erroneous) teaching that men can only go to Heaven if they hear the Gospel and embrace it. We have an entire Old Testament filled with men and women of faith who were not privy to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...because it was a Mystery not revealed to men (Romans 16:26-7; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). It was not even until the Prophets that a more concise Prophecy of Christ began to be given. So to impose the possibility of "trusting in Jesus Christ" not only lacks the first Scripture to support it, it denies the very Scripture that teaches...it simply wasn't the case. One cannot even kame a case for the disciples trusting in Christ:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Note that at this late date in Christ's Ministry that Scripture states He began at that time to give them the Gospel (v.21).

Note that Peter rejects the Gospel (v.22).

And we will see Peter try to keep Christ from the Cross with physical violence (Matthew 26:51-52; Mark 14:47; John 18:10-11), and when that fails...he abandons the Lord (Matthew 26:71-72).

The reason?


John 20:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


So what we need is an answer from Scripture to support the concept that Abraham had eternal life and that he did not need to be eternally redeemed by Christ. We need to see where the Atonement was imputed to Abraham. We need to see where we can support men being Reconciled to God and explain why this is not accomplished by Christ as Scripture states:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


When was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself? How were men reconciled before He manifested in the flesh? How did they become sons of God through the adoption of sins before they were redeemed from the Law (Galatians 4:4-6)?




It says that those who do the works of the Law will be justified. Only if someone tries to impose an eternal context into it do we see a conflict with Scripture. It's just a fact, men and women were justified by the works of the Law in a temporal context:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Why is this righteousness different from the righteousness of Abraham? Both are based on what they did...as opposed to what Christ did that men might be by the grace of God freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.




Nothing about the Gentiles holding the truth in unrighteousness, they are doers of the Law. And the text is clear, not the hearers of the Law are justified, but the doers. They do not even have the Oracles of God yet they can be justified by being obedient to the Law written on their hearts. This is the grace of God.




So show me that in Scripture, and address the points which show this isn't the case. Abraham died not receiving the promises. Those that equate Eternal Life with Temporal Justification are creating two ways by which a man can be saved. The Atonement was not applied prior to the Cross, though this is popularly taught and believed. We would have to see a Scriptural basis for it and it simply isn't there. We have only the doctrine of Catholics and Protestants that both equate being justified by what a man does with being Justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.



I know, it's not for sale. It can only be had through diligent study.


God bless.

Yes, it is clear. It is set in (Rom. 2:1). "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou doest the same things."

So, (Rom. 2:12-13) is a chastisement against you who claim you are keeping the law. The point is no one keeps the law. That you have the law, yes. That you are keeping the law, no. Thus when you see yourself as better than those described in (Rom. 1:18-32), the wrath of God is upon you also because you hold the truth in unrighteousness. (1;18)

This is why Paul says in (Rom. 2:16), "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel." It will be revealed then that none are justifed by the law, for none keep the law. Though they make claim to.

Sorry, as I said, I am not buying this 'temporal justification' talk. (Rom. 2) is against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (2:1).

Quantrill

 

[S.T.Ranger]

The Old Testament people had as much knowledge of God as they needed to accept Him -- the Galations 3:6 passage shows that. Abraham believed God -- His promises. Hebrews 11 shows all the ways that Abraham and others in the Old Testament believed. Their faith.

Much the same way that God gives us in many ways -- even in nature -- the fact of His existence. A person can see the orderliness of the world , etc.

It depends on what a person does with the 'light' he / she is given. What is in our hearts.

Sorry I didn't see this yesterday. I am on a tablet right now so I'm not going to be able to post Scripture and will be limited in my responses.

I agree they had all they needed in order to be "saved" from an eternal perspective, however we hawave to deal with the fact that the Gospel of Christ was, like the Rapture, still a Mystery. They were saved but still awaiting Redemption just as we are saved and awaiting glorification.

Perhaps it would be best VB to address these points one at a time and since Quantrill has a focus on Romans 3:13-15 I'd ask you to adresss the points given here...


It is a very clear statement:

Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


We aren't going to change the simple statements made:

1. One is not justified simply because they hear the Law (and this has specific relevance to the fact that Jews received the Oracles (Word) of God, not the Gentiles (Romans 3:1-2));

2. Those who do the Law shall be justified: can we really construe this to mean otherwise? Is Scripture in error here, men will not be justified by the Law?

3. Gentiles show the Law written on their hearts (this is an internal witness and revelation from God to men outside of the sphere of the Word of God) and do the things contained in the Law. This means that they judge each other based on what is written on their hearts.


The conclusion is that if Gentiles do in fact perform the works of the Law they are doers of the Law, not simply hearers...and they will be justified.

But not in an eternal context.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Yes, it is clear. It is set in (Rom. 2:1). "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou doest the same things."

So, (Rom. 2:12-13) is a chastisement against you who claim you are keeping the law. The point is no one keeps the law. That you have the law, yes. That you are keeping the law, no. Thus when you see yourself as better than those described in (Rom. 1:18-32), the wrath of God is upon you also because you hold the truth in unrighteousness. (1;18)

This is why Paul says in (Rom. 2:16), "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel." It will be revealed then that none are justifed by the law, for none keep the law. Though they make claim to.

Sorry, as I said, I am not buying this 'temporal justification' talk. (Rom. 2) is against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (2:1).

Quantrill

The Old Testament people had as much knowledge of God as they needed to accept Him -- the Galations 3:6 passage shows that. Abraham believed God -- His promises. Hebrews 11 shows all the ways that Abraham and others in the Old Testament believed. Their faith.

Much the same way that God gives us in many ways -- even in nature -- the fact of His existence. A person can see the orderliness of the world , etc.

It depends on what a person does with the 'light' he / she is given. What is in our hearts.[/QUOTE]

Let's take a closer look at a point already made. You say the following passage teaches no one can keep the Law but we have two aspects we consider: first I agree that no one keeps it perfectly so from that perspective no on "keeps the Law," but that doesn't mean we ignore that from a temporal perspective men ever kept the Law:

Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

They...kept the Law.

Just as Gentiles performed the works of the Law written on their hearts and the point is that the doers of the Law will be justified.


I'd ask you to adresss the points given here...


It is a very clear statement:

Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


We aren't going to change the simple statements made:

1. One is not justified simply because they hear the Law (and this has specific relevance to the fact that Jews received the Oracles (Word) of God, not the Gentiles (Romans 3:1-2));

2. Those who do the Law shall be justified: can we really construe this to mean otherwise? Is Scripture in error here, men will not be justified by the Law?

3. Gentiles show the Law written on their hearts (this is an internal witness and revelation from God to men outside of the sphere of the Word of God) and do the things contained in the Law. This means that they judge each other based on what is written on their hearts.


The conclusion is that if Gentiles do/did in fact perform the works of the Law they are doers of the Law, not simply hearers...and they will be justified.

But not in an eternal context.

It is because people ignore the temporal aspect of the Law that they become antinomian. I'd suggest a read of Ezekiel 18 and careful consideration that God is telling them if they keep the Law they will live (physically) and if they don't they will die (physically). This is a basic principle of the Law, failure to keep it brought physical death. And what Paul is pointing out is that when Gentiles who had not received the Law kept it they were justified. This is contrasted with Jews who had received the Law and thought they were justified because they heard it.

There isn't anything in the statement that denies he means what he is saying.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Justification = God sees us through the blood of Christ -- just as if we'd never sinned.

Justification is part Of -- so -- yes Abraham was saved / justified.

But He didn't see the Old Testament Saint as justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus until Christ actually died in their stead. They died still needing their sins redeemed.

Romans 3:25 King James Version (KJV)

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hebrews 9:15 KJV

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Ephesians 2:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


The penalty of the Law still hung over them when they died.

And I'm getting better with copy and paste on this tablet so am actually able to post a few.

God bless.

 

[Sue D.]

The Old Testament people looked Towards a future Savior -- they were making yearly animal sacrifices to take care of their sins. Because they Did have the prophets to tell them / warn them and their need to repent. King David did that. His sins and his repentence.

All those 'by faith' people. And all of us 'by faith' people. They -- anticipating a future Savior and us looking back at the past risen Savior.

Put 'us' back in the Old Testament times Now -- how would we be getting saved?

I'm a NKJ person. I grew up with KJ -- it was the only Bible available. We even had Dr. Scoffields' notes at the bottom of the pages with either dark blue or black cover.

 

[Quantrill]

@S.T.Ranger

Sorry. I know you want to use the term 'temporal' as it is involved in the subject of this thread. But I disagree with what you are trying to do with it. The Israelites were never able to keep the Law. They broke the Law constantly. The demands of the Law, they fell short of.

Now, to the believing Israelites under the Law, they recognized this. And they recognized the provision the Law gave for a sacrifice when you fail under the Law. And so the believing Israelite would see that he broke the Law and he would come with his sacrifice which was a product of his faith. These were as Zacharias, and Elisabeth. They were not righteous before God because they never broke the Law. They were righteous before God because they saw they could not keep the Law and in faith would bring the correct sacrifice. And with that faith, God imputed righteousness to them. This is why God gave the Law. He didn't give it for man to think that he could keep it. He gave it to reveal man's need of a Saviour.

Concerning (Rom. 2) I have already addressed it. You have missed entirely what Paul is saying. If man can keep the Law, is he justified? Yes. But he can't keep the Law. Thus you who sit in judgment of others because you think you are keeping the Law, are guilty as well, because no one can keep the Law. (Rom. 2:1) The Jews had the Law. The Gentiles knew the Law given to them by nature. Both are guilty if they sit in judgement of others as if they were not guilty.

No, the conclusion is, (Rom. 2:12) "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law."

Both Jew and Gentile are accountable to God as both have the Law. Both Jew and Gentile are guilty under the Law. They are not justified because of the Law. They are guilty under the Law. There is no temporal justification by the law. The only justification will be by faith. The Law cares not for temporal or eternal.

Quantrill

 

[Sue D.]

Realized that I hadn't finished my thought about the yearly animal sacrifices -- Jesus Chris became the Final Perfect Lamb of God. So all those many years of yearly sacrifices were done in obedience to God.

 

[Quantrill]

The Old Testament people looked Towards a future Savior -- they were making yearly animal sacrifices to take care of their sins. Because they Did have the prophets to tell them / warn them and their need to repent. King David did that. His sins and his repentence.

All those 'by faith' people. And all of us 'by faith' people. They -- anticipating a future Savior and us looking back at the past risen Savior.

Put 'us' back in the Old Testament times Now -- how would we be getting saved?

I'm a NKJ person. I grew up with KJ -- it was the only Bible available. We even had Dr. Scoffields' notes at the bottom of the pages with either dark blue or black cover.

Good man, Scofield.

Quantrill