The Bible and Guns (What is the Christian position)

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Some may have heard about the gun confiscation in Virginia (USA).
As a Christian what should be our position when it comes to gun control
in light of the news headline above.


I'm seeking people who can truly dialogue and want to be married to the truth
not married to their position. I won't share my thoughts yet, but want to hear what our
lovely community has to say before I share my initial thoughts.

Love,

-WNL

 

[hopefulson]

Freedom is Freedom, Responsibility is Responsibility because it involves the free will of others I will hold my tongue. Should someone come to take mine I will not mistake what is being done nor would I softheadedly try to redefine what freedom is or shirk my responsibility to it. Hard sad choices would result however the Word of The Lord stands forth to be as harmless as a dove. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. Nonetheless this word also accompanies our choices RESPONSIBILITY. Any choices like all choices of direction should come as a result of prayer. May God's will prevail in our nation and my heart.

 

[Hekuran]

Writing from the UK where restrictions on gun ownership are fairly tight and mass shooting very rare.

The fewer weapons in circulation, the safer everybody is.

A Christian approach is to overcome evil with good, not to overpower evil with the threat of violence

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I always like to listen first before I speak.

 

[Hekuran]

I was a bit sloppy in my Bible quoting there. Here's what Paul actually said:

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[hopefulson]

I was a bit sloppy in my Bible quoting there. Here's what Paul actually said:

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

That is why it is so so important to be in The Spirit literally the right course is not up to us but it is up to God. I am one who feels duty bound to defend. However duty is not the will of God unless He says so.

 

[hopefulson]

There is so much to this. I am not even sure we are entitled to defend ourselves but I am sure we cannot dismiss the value of and responsibility for others without conviction even though I have to state we, each of us, have a very personal God.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone @hopefulson @Hekuran . So this is how I'm seeing it currently and feel free to shine your light and walk with
me on these thoughts.

So this is first an issue of the role of the government. The general issue is that some feel that their 2nd amendment rights
are being violated. Would this be the case in other countries where their constitution does not have a similar 2nd amendment (right to bear arms)?
Likely not.

Issue one: Is the Virginia governor going against the rule of rule with an unjust law that infringes upon the Constitution?
If the issue is yes, then the law is unjust and the Supreme court should change it. If the issue is no, then the citizens should
accept the ruling or try to ratify (change) the constitution to spell out more clearly what right they want when they come to guns.
What are the constitutional scholars saying about what the 2nd amendment means when it speaks of a well regulated militia?

Issue two: As Christians what should be our perspective on having guns to protect ourselves as citizen. Put another way,
should we support the 2nd amendment as Christians, or are we to submit to the government and not try to overthrow it
because God establishes it. Put another way, if the Constitution of the USA was being changed, as Christians should be
put for the 2nd amendment to stay or take it out?

Issue three: As Christians what should be our response when the government infringes upon our rights? If we assume that
the Virginian law is unconstitutional for the sake illustrating issue three, what should be the Christian response? How did
Jesus respond when the Roman government was not honoring his rights and falsely accusing Him?



Thoughts--------------
Issue one:
I think many will say that the VA law does infringe to some degree on the 2nd amendment but they
feel that such high powered rifles are not needed for hunting and will not do any good against the government
which has tanks. However is that really the issue? The 2nd amendment was not meant to own guns for hunting
and to protect from deer, it was to protect from the government. Obviously the government has more
firepower, but does that change the the fact that we still have given the citizens this right? I think if the citizens
of the USA feel that the 2nd amendment is outdated and the guns are the problem than change the constitution
instead of having a 2nd amendment and than making laws that undermine it.

Issue two & three:
For this issue I think that God is a God of order and rule and that it is the role of the government
to enforce the law, not people by force. I think that is the norm with God. Even Egypt when the Hebrews
were in slavery, God didn't send Moses with an army to free them, He sent Moses to do diplomacy
and convince Pharoah to "Let me people go". That isn't to say that God is against self defense because
Jesus told the disciples in Luke 22:36 "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and
if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." So there are instances when God has
called people to take arms, and times in the old testament when he send his people to defeat
other nations by force. However the norm in terms of citizens is often to wait on the deliverance of
the Lord instead of pushing off the tyrant by force.



*** In your response do me a favor and label, (issue 1, 2, 3, etc) so I know which one you are speaking off. *****
*** In your response do me a favor and label, (issue 1, 2, 3, etc) so I know which one you are speaking off. *****
*** In your response do me a favor and label, (issue 1, 2, 3, etc) so I know which one you are speaking off. *****

 

[hopefulson]

Issue 1 in regards to Virginia it is not my state however it is my constitution. The fact that every time we turn around a new interpretation, a new restriction or constriction of the liberties defined within it is taking place is telling me that the deep respect I have for it is not shared by the general populace. This leaves an expectation that it won't be long before it is made irrelevant. So have we a duty, an obligation, a responsibility? Would it not be a good thing to curtail lawbreakers than the legitimate rights of others?

Issue 2 In what place would you put the American Revolution outside of God's will?

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Issue 1 in regards to Virginia it is not my state however it is my constitution. The fact that every time we turn around a new interpretation, a new restriction or constriction of the liberties defined within it is taking place is telling me that the deep respect I have for it is not shared by the general populace. This leaves an expectation that it won't be long before it is made irrelevant. So have we a duty, an obligation, a responsibility? Would it not be a good thing to curtail lawbreakers than the legitimate rights of others?

Issue 2 In what place would you put the American Revolution outside of God's will?

Good points on issue 1. I agree that many are not respecting the constitution and if it continues it will mean nothing.

With issue 2, your question I must say I don't know. I think sometimes we look at an outcome which we see as good
and therefore assume that God's hand was in it. Don't get me wrong I believe God is sovereign but that does not mean
just because something good happens God wanted it to happen that way.

What Im' trying to say is, for example Romans 8:28 (all things work for good for those who love the Lord and are called according
to his purpose), just because John Doe may have made a mistake and been a drug addict and his addiction was used
to help others doesn't mean that God led him to the sin of addiction. Or just because Susan was a prostitute and after
getting clean she helps others in that same sin doesn't mean that God led her to be a prostitute.

Meaning we should not confuse God cleaning up our mess with Him leading us to make the mess in the first place.

So that said, I think God has definitely been with this country (USA) in many ways, but I don't have an answer as I don't know
if God wanted the colonies to rebel. Perhaps our submission to the British would have given us a more humble attitude
as a people having us not so rebellious and individualistic as a people.

I think of Joseph who eventually became a high ranking official in Egypt, after being sold into slavery
by His brothers. God worked it out through all of the mishaps, but I don't think that means we should say that
God wanted Him to be put into slavery. I would just say that God gives us freewill and He is able to use even
the evils to work out for good.

So I don't know for your second question, but makes one think . It does.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Going back to your question.

You asked for it God's WILL. Though we may not know specifically we know God's character and can infer.

You said was it God's WILL.....

Well we know that God's WILL is for His people to be free. What type of freedom is this. Is this
freedom from government or freedom from sin?

We know God's WILL is for all to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Does this mean that
it was good for Africans to be taking in chains on slave ships and brought to a land where the
can hear the gospel?

For some it seems like the only time Africans heard the gospel was during the slave trade, but if you
read the Bible, the gospel was in Africa way before America was a nation. In the New Testament remember
the Ethophian who was Baptized. Surely we went and spread the gospel in His area.

We know it is God's WILL for citizens to submit to government, yet we know that it is His WILL for the
government to treat the people well.

Things to consider as we think this out. Looking forward to your response. Much love.
Your brother in Christ

-WNL

 

[Hekuran]

I've done a little digging around on the subject of arms control. I found this genuinely disturbing, and makes sense of things such as mass shooting drills in schools. Horrifying.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I've done a little digging around on the subject of arms control. I found this genuinely disturbing, and makes sense of things such as mass shooting drills in schools. Horrifying.

Thanks for sharing @Hekuran . I think your post goes to the heart of the issue.
Though mass shootings are by far a very very very very little percentage of the homicide
rate, death by guns in general contributes greatly to the homicide rate.

I think the 2nd amendment was put in the constitution during a time when force was
the way to overthrow governments, as people saw it. But now we live in a time when
the way to do that is through our elected officials. Through petitions, writing your law
representatives. Sharing your issues, changing the minds of people and just changing their
votes and thus putting in the people in office that will change the laws.

Thus I think the path would be to amend the constitution, but that is very difficult
because many don't want to give up that right. But hopefully productive debate will
help others see another perspective.

I think that America is too much in love with their (our) guns. They (we) value too much
the individual right at the expense of the general safety of the population.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Blake H]

I pose the question, if the enemy attacks us say a church shouldn't we defend ourselves?

Leviticus 24:19-20 (MEV) "If anyone causes injury to his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him, fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused an injury to another, so shall it be done to him."

 

[Hekuran]

Jesus said: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person. But whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other as well."

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I pose the question, if the enemy attacks us say a church shouldn't we defend ourselves?

Leviticus 24:19-20 (MEV) "If anyone causes injury to his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him, fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused an injury to another, so shall it be done to him."

I think self defense is not a bad thing. I don't think anyone would say that if their home were broken into by a robber at night,
that they would allow the robber to violate their wife and kidnap their children because God does not condone violence.

I think self-defense is not a bad thing.
However I think with such discussion and often with the WORD of God the focus is not solely on the act but the motivation
and the heart.

I would say that perhaps God does not want us having an attitude of taking the law into our own hands or putting our confidence
in our firearms. That is not to say that defending oneself is a bad thing. If we had a culture where the norm is we all have our guns
to defend ourselves and uphold the law, what happens when I feel someone has wronged me and the law isn't doing their part.
Does that encourage more people to take the law into their own hands because the government is acting too slow for their liking?

In terms of the Christian as an individual citizen, not speaking in this moment about the role of government but the Christian citizen,
I think that we are to live as peaceful people. Not inviting danger yet protecting ourselves but not putting our faith in anything
other than God knowing that He alone is our true strength.

I don't think any pastor would tell a woman not to carry pepper spray to stop herself from being raped, however
I don't think a lady should put her confidence in the pepper spray and go to parties where alcohol is served
and guys are acting crazy or the likelihood (as with many college campuses) is high for sexual assault to happen.
So carrying the pepper spray (defending herself) is a good thing, but putting her confidence in it and letting
that give her a sense of confidence in situations that she should not be in the first place is not a good thing.

In that situation I'm in no way blaming the victim as I know that most sexual assault are committed by people who
know their attacker, that was just used as an example.

Also statistics show that those who own a gun are more likely to be at risk of gun violence than those who don't.
So I understand that many buy a gun for protection, but the stats are staggering last when I checked 15 years ago
showing that just by owning a gun your risk goes up very high for being at risk.

So I think defending self is not a bad thing, but when we start with that in mind we often put self in the driver's seat
and we think that it is our responsibility to protect ourselves, when we have an almighty heaven Father that is greater
than all and can protect us. Jesus didn't carry weapons on Him but not a finger was laid on Him until His time had come.
He walked in God's WILL and was protected, He even defended himself (by running) by escaping the crowds.

So again I think defending one's self is not bad or ungodly. I think however that we should remember that our safety
is God's responsibility if we are walking in His WILL. That does not mean that we don't take common sense
precautions like wearing a seat belt, but it means that we are not motivated by a spirit of fear, but a spirit of faith,
and led by the Holy Spirit.

I'll share a personal experience. So I am a African American male. When I was at college, some 18 years ago, I had the
thought to carry a knife in my pocket for protection incase I ever got attacked but I felt the Holy Spirit was telling me not to.
I listened. One night, while walking back from the Honors house (I was in the Honors Program) University police stopped me
because they thought I was suspicious. They searched me and found nothing and let me go. I had not committed any crimes.

That incident reminded me that if I had a knife on me at that point it could had been a different situation. They could have seen
it as a weapons and thought I was out trying to attack someone, or if some crimes had happened that night, they could
have thought that I was the one who did it. So I was glad that for my sake I did not have any weapons on me.

I know everyone has their own philosophy on life but for me I've trusted God to protect me and not needed to defend myself
(this is coming from a kid that was bullied all in middle school, I would run away, not fight back). And God has not failed
me yet with protecting me. Not saying bad things have not happened, or that I haven't been in a car accident or haven't
had my car broken into. Things have happened but I can't really look back in my life at the now age of 37 and say on
so and so day I which I really had a gun to protect myself. I think God is doing an A++ job of protecting me thus far.

For me having a gun would just shift my dependency and focus to myself or the gun for protection instead of focusing
on God and staying humble knowing that He is my protection.

 

[rag4acrown1]

We should not put ourselves in a place to have the finger pointed at us.
Yet, proclaiming Jesus is Lord and preaching the gospel... the fingers of "saints" and "demons" are pointing at us.
Hence, we are not the Judge; but if we judge make righteous judgements, according to the Word of God.
David was ordained of God to take out Goliath.
Our journeys in Him may differ, according to the purpose of His will; yet we are striving for the same crown to be found in "The Book of Life".
Hence, not all speak in tongues, not all are teachers, not all are prophets... and not all are ordained like David.
Many are called, but few are chosen.
Be harmless as a dove, dont put self in position, to be pointed at.
Go about minding His business and not the world's business.
This is a worldly matter...guns.
A pencil can be just as deadly a weapon.
What is the intentions of the user holding it?
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth; the world conducts their business in this manner.
Have we rose above this world...or are we just as they are?
We point the finger, and yet do the same thing.
Do we know Him yet?
Have we forsaken all (our worldly matters), picked up our cross (yet) and followed in His steps?
Obviously not; like cattle being led to the slaughter.
All praise, glory and honor be unto God.

 

[rag4acrown1]

I think self defense is not a bad thing. I don't think anyone would say that if their home were broken into by a robber at night,
that they would allow the robber to violate their wife and kidnap their children because God does not condone violence.

I think self-defense is not a bad thing.
However I think with such discussion and often with the WORD of God the focus is not solely on the act but the motivation
and the heart.

I would say that perhaps God does not want us having an attitude of taking the law into our own hands or putting our confidence
in our firearms. That is not to say that defending oneself is a bad thing. If we had a culture where the norm is we all have our guns
to defend ourselves and uphold the law, what happens when I feel someone has wronged me and the law isn't doing their part.
Does that encourage more people to take the law into their own hands because the government is acting too slow for their liking?

In terms of the Christian as an individual citizen, not speaking in this moment about the role of government but the Christian citizen,
I think that we are to live as peaceful people. Not inviting danger yet protecting ourselves but not putting our faith in anything
other than God knowing that He alone is our true strength.

I don't think any pastor would tell a woman not to carry pepper spray to stop herself from being raped, however
I don't think a lady should put her confidence in the pepper spray and go to parties where alcohol is served
and guys are acting crazy or the likelihood (as with many college campuses) is high for sexual assault to happen.
So carrying the pepper spray (defending herself) is a good thing, but putting her confidence in it and letting
that give her a sense of confidence in situations that she should not be in the first place is not a good thing.

In that situation I'm in no way blaming the victim as I know that most sexual assault are committed by people who
know their attacker, that was just used as an example.

Also statistics show that those who own a gun are more likely to be at risk of gun violence than those who don't.
So I understand that many buy a gun for protection, but the stats are staggering last when I checked 15 years ago
showing that just by owning a gun your risk goes up very high for being at risk.

So I think defending self is not a bad thing, but when we start with that in mind we often put self in the driver's seat
and we think that it is our responsibility to protect ourselves, when we have an almighty heaven Father that is greater
than all and can protect us. Jesus didn't carry weapons on Him but not a finger was laid on Him until His time had come.
He walked in God's WILL and was protected, He even defended himself (by running) by escaping the crowds.

So again I think defending one's self is not bad or ungodly. I think however that we should remember that our safety
is God's responsibility if we are walking in His WILL. That does not mean that we don't take common sense
precautions like wearing a seat belt, but it means that we are not motivated by a spirit of fear, but a spirit of faith,
and led by the Holy Spirit.

I'll share a personal experience. So I am a African American male. When I was at college, some 18 years ago, I had the
thought to carry a knife in my pocket for protection incase I ever got attacked but I felt the Holy Spirit was telling me not to.
I listened. One night, while walking back from the Honors house (I was in the Honors Program) University police stopped me
because they thought I was suspicious. They searched me and found nothing and let me go. I had not committed any crimes.

That incident reminded me that if I had a knife on me at that point it could had been a different situation. They could have seen
it as a weapons and thought I was out trying to attack someone, or if some crimes had happened that night, they could
have thought that I was the one who did it. So I was glad that for my sake I did not have any weapons on me.

I know everyone has their own philosophy on life but for me I've trusted God to protect me and not needed to defend myself
(this is coming from a kid that was bullied all in middle school, I would run away, not fight back). And God has not failed
me yet with protecting me. Not saying bad things have not happened, or that I haven't been in a car accident or haven't
had my car broken into. Things have happened but I can't really look back in my life at the now age of 37 and say on
so and so day I which I really had a gun to protect myself. I think God is doing an A++ job of protecting me thus far.

For me having a gun would just shift my dependency and focus to myself or the gun for protection instead of focusing
on God and staying humble knowing that He is my protection.

Jesus did not have to tend to such matters; as He went about to please Father God. Jesus did not fight back, He freely went with them. He pleaded "let them go, it is me you seek".
A married woman, seeks to please her husband.
A single woman, seeks to please God.
Take a wife, and be good to her, cherish her, adore her, for she seeks to be pleasing to you. And somewhere through it all that God would be pleased with her.
All praise be to God.

 

[Blake H]

Jesus said: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person. But whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other as well."

I wonder if this applies to wartime or something like that.

 

[Blake H]

This is interesting.

Luke 11:21 (AMP) "When the strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his belongings are undisturbed and secure."