The State of the Dead

[theLeadmonger]

I've been giving some thought to denominational give and take, banter, competition, and even outright controversy. There are a lot of different kinds of churches for people to go to, and they can be equally Christian in any one of them, but judging whether one of the church's approaches to salvation is true or not, in and of itself, I'm thinking can be told by its institutional view on the state of the dead.

What I mean is that whether or not you are saved by Christ in your church doesn't depend on who your family are, which always determines which neighborhood you grow up in and which nearby church you attend, assuming that your family takes you to one. It's described as "personal relationship with Jesus Christ", and everyone knows what that phrase means already. He lived over two thousand years ago, but that's ok, partly because you have a Bible on earth to read and partly because He's in Heaven, not the grave. Also, your own prayers are private and individual.

But what about your church, as a foundation, with and incorporation as a nonprofit religious organization. It has a doctrinal rule book, there is a published statement of spiritual beliefs somewhere in the office, and you know there is, because that is a requirement in lieu of a commercial business model for the organization to get its license.

What I really mean to say is, if you were an out of towner with or without family, looking for a church, and only thinking Christian rather than specific denominational brand of Christin, and you wanted to be sure that the pastor was definitely preaching methodology that would get you to Heaven if you followed it, I'd look first at the church's statements regarding teaching on the state of the dead.

 

[Twistie]

I've been giving some thought to denominational give and take, banter, competition, and even outright controversy. There are a lot of different kinds of churches for people to go to, and they can be equally Christian in any one of them, but judging whether one of the church's approaches to salvation is true or not, in and of itself, I'm thinking can be told by its institutional view on the state of the dead.

What I mean is that whether or not you are saved by Christ in your church doesn't depend on who your family are, which always determines which neighborhood you grow up in and which nearby church you attend, assuming that your family takes you to one. It's described as "personal relationship with Jesus Christ", and everyone knows what that phrase means already. He lived over two thousand years ago, but that's ok, partly because you have a Bible on earth to read and partly because He's in Heaven, not the grave. Also, your own prayers are private and individual.

But what about your church, as a foundation, with and incorporation as a nonprofit religious organization. It has a doctrinal rule book, there is a published statement of spiritual beliefs somewhere in the office, and you know there is, because that is a requirement in lieu of a commercial business model for the organization to get its license.

What I really mean to say is, if you were an out of towner with or without family, looking for a church, and only thinking Christian rather than specific denominational brand of Christin, and you wanted to be sure that the pastor was definitely preaching methodology that would get you to Heaven if you followed it, I'd look first at the church's statements regarding teaching on the state of the dead.

Hebrews 8
8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


I personally don't attend any temples for 1. none is even walking distance and for 2. Those that we got to visit we were not welcomed. N to b frankly honest they were not if YH they was about wordly wealth n ways n concerns n looked like a concert getting ready for the world to come party


Twistie

 

[theLeadmonger]

Hebrews 8
8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


I personally don't attend any temples for 1. none is even walking distance and for 2. Those that we got to visit we were not welcomed. N to b frankly honest they were not if YH they was about wordly wealth n ways n concerns n looked like a concert getting ready for the world to come party


Twistie

Those are your beliefs based on citation. The Bible is always true, rather than false, with true and false being understood as mutually exclusive opposites. I'm well known for going off on people over editions, translations, versions and study guides, that's just me being a reader, honestly. Even if what we were reading in a group (like at a newspaper business meeting, in a classroom at one of America's Great Books colleges, or maybe even in a poetry club or library reading circle) wasn't the Bible I'd still be that way.

It sometimes comes up in a religious argument (by which I mean hostile argumentative encounter more than I mean sober scholarly logic paper) that "that church is just there to make money". It probably is not, if it's a legally incorporated religious foundation. Unfortunately, under state law, you as a church member, pastor, or Sabbath school teacher cannot legally hold another member of you congregation, regardless of in-church hierarchy status, to a promise made such as sacramental baptism, the seal of the confession, or duties attending to acceptance of communion. This effects the famous "Church Discipline".

The above statement does not apply to under 18 family members or have any consequences for proximate neighbors who only met in private houses either for other reasons and in conversations during which the Bible came up, was the principal topic, or even when the meeting was only to read the Bible, due to the inability of such social meetings to verify a roster entry of membership.

 

[Twistie]

Those are your beliefs based on citation. The Bible is always true, rather than false, with true and false being understood as mutually exclusive opposites. I'm well known for going off on people over editions, translations, versions and study guides, that's just me being a reader, honestly. Even if what we were reading in a group (like at a newspaper business meeting, in a classroom at one of America's Great Books colleges, or maybe even in a poetry club or library reading circle) wasn't the Bible I'd still be that way.

It sometimes comes up in a religious argument (by which I mean hostile argumentative encounter more than I mean sober scholarly logic paper) that "that church is just there to make money". It probably is not, if it's a legally incorporated religious foundation. Unfortunately, under state law, you as a church member, pastor, or Sabbath school teacher cannot legally hold another member of you congregation, regardless of in-church hierarchy status, to a promise made such as sacramental baptism, the seal of the confession, or duties attending to acceptance of communion. This effects the famous "Church Discipline".

The above statement does not apply to under 18 family members or have any consequences for proximate neighbors who only met in private houses either for other reasons and in conversations during which the Bible came up, was the principal topic, or even when the meeting was only to read the Bible, due to the inability of such social meetings to verify a roster entry of membership.

It's all written.. many say They believe the Word but few believe what The Words says..


He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?



Twistie

 

[theLeadmonger]

It's all written.. many say They believe the Word but few believe what The Words says..


He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?



Twistie

Indeed. I know that too, and so do the state office that grants you your nonprofit business license to open a church. That's why you have to have a codified doctrinal statement to get the license. What I'm actually thinking isn't something to do with absolute metaphysical "True Christianity Proofs", to a very great extent you will just have to wait for resurrection morning to find that out. There's another kind of business that uses Biblical references and claims to engage in practices with the same titles as those found in Biblical scholarship. There are commercial wedding chapels. You could have gotten married in a court proceeding; you can also be married by a legally documented and licensed church incorporation. Besides that, there are wedding chapels. They say they're chapels, but actually, all they do is preform marriages. It's a business facade, the primary trade conducted by the establishment is candid photography.

 

[Twistie]

Indeed. I know that too, and so do the state office that grants you your nonprofit business license to open a church. That's why you have to have a codified doctrinal statement to get the license. What I'm actually thinking isn't something to do with absolute metaphysical "True Christianity Proofs", to a very great extent you will just have to wait for resurrection morning to find that out. There's another kind of business that uses Biblical references and claims to engage in practices with the same titles as those found in Biblical scholarship. There are commercial wedding chapels. You could have gotten married in a court proceeding; you can also be married by a legally documented and licensed church incorporation. Besides that, there are wedding chapels. They say they're chapels, but actually, all they do is preform marriages. It's a business facade, the primary trade conducted by the establishment is candid photography.

That's all wordly not into it.. be ye separate from the world.. I'm not part of it..I'm not a Christian neither.. nothing derogatory comes from YH..

Only one Teacher.. One Good...

But you must not be called 'Teacher,' because you have only one Teacher, and you are all brothers and sisters together. And don't call any person on earth 'Father,' because you have one Father, who is in heaven.

Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. The rich young ruler approached Jesus and asked, “What good thing must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good.”

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own

For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.


Twistie

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

and what is 'the state of the dead'?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Greetings,

and what is 'the state of the dead'?


Bless you ....><>

Born Again = Home in heaven.
Not Born again = In hell.

There are no other options, the Roman Catholic "Purgatory" isn't real, and there's no "second CHances", or "Re-incarnation".

 

[theLeadmonger]

Greetings,

and what is 'the state of the dead'?


Bless you ....><>

A church's belief's on "the state of the dead" are its teachings about whether or not they are conscious in the grave. Jesus compared death to sleep. Dante Alighieri famously thought that the dead were conscious in Heaven Hell or Purgatory, without specifying in his poetry whether his action was allegorical, set after the resurrection, or whether should go straight to either Heaven or Hell.

Beyond Western Cathoilsim, the question I'm digging into in business terms centers on the fact that some cities have church foundations which are actually spiritualist. I don't know if you've ever seen one, most people on Christian chat website know about the "community" at least from internet reports, and books written by various researchers. Believe it or not, there are places claiming to have legally church status that believe in reincarnation, contact ghosts in their practice (and I do mean other than the Holy Ghost mentioned in the Bible!), and engage in all manner of contact with the spirit world beyond prophecy. The reason they're financial pages news is that they meet in buildings which were purposely constructed as churches in the past, by architects who belonged to certain denominations, and which were built with offering funds by startup congregations.

The fact that I'm theorizing that the best way to determine whether any building, built to contain a church congregation and advertising itself as a church on its signage is legally Christian or not is legally Christian is to see if they believe in Resurrection or Reincarnation is that a spiritualist practice, "contacting ghosts", by any "means" is universally concentrated in new age movements who's doctrine on death and the afterlife is predicated on reincarnation.

That's just where I set the cone, or how far I opened the dividers, to employ a metaphor. It's a working hypothisis.