The subtle Bible changers.

[B-A-C]

There are several phrases in the Bible like...

John 5:34; "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
John 16:1; "These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling.
John 17:21; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
John 17:22; "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
Acts 8:22; "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

It says in the verse that you "may" be saved. You "may" be with Jesus. You "may" be kept from stumbling. You "may" be forgiven.
This phrase "may be" occurs over 30 times in the New testament. But it seems many Bible teachers these days turn this into "you definitely will be".
We used to play a game when I was a child, called "Mother may I". The word "may" implies that some could happen, but doesn't mean that it definitely will happen.

There are other similar phrases as well.

John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Now of course no one can be saved without Jesus, no argument there. But again, some people turn this into .."that the world will all be definitely saved" .. through Him.
But that isn't what it says, it says "might be". Some people might be saved, some people might not be saved. To say everyone is saved is to change the Bible.

Gal 2:2; It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

Paul doesn't say that he definitely failed here, he doesn't say I know my work was in vain. But he does acknowledge.. it "might be" in vain. It could be.

There are literally dozens of verses like this. And there are literally dozens of examples, even right here on TalkJesus, where turn what "might be", or "may be" or "could be" into "it definitely will be".

It's just a subtle change. But it changes the meaning quite a bit.

.. next, the word "if"....

 

[Samson2020]

How is salvation provided and to whom is it available?

"Ye are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." KJV
"God saved you by His grace when you believed. And YOU CANT' TAKE CREDIT for this; it is a gift from God." NLT
"For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is NOT from yourselves; IT IS GODS GIFT." CSB

Matt 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, BECAUSE IT IS GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,
BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN."

WHY NOT ALL? BECAUSE THEY ALL WERE NOT CHOSEN? Yes. Now why would that be?
Is it possible that God is only concerned with the first fruits at this time? Sure.

If as the above verses say, that salvation is a gift then God is the picker of the winners and losers yes?
Why? Is it possible that the ones not gifted salvation at this time are the souls used to mature the ones who are chosen? Looks like thats what happened to Jesus.
He was matured. perfected etc... when there was only Him, and all the rest were not as they had not the Holy Ghost yet.
Now when it was given we are told that God saved "SUCH AS SHOULD BE SAVED", so why should those who were saved be saved? The Fathers choice? Yes.
It is the Father who works His will according to His purposes that He purposed in Himself before the world was formed.

Do we suppose that Jesus or Paul knew who God would choose? Paul definitely not, Jesus maybe but the word MAY was used simply because they
did not know whom God would choose or when.
If I were preaching in a crowd of say 100 people, do you think that God would save them all that very day? No. But it is possible as it is the goodness of God
that leadeth thee to repentance. But unless God acts on your behalf you ain't gonna repent, unless God gives the heart Faith necessary to believe you ain't
gonna believe. See above.
Now if the person does not receive from God that which is necessary to believe, how are they held accountable for not having received what was never given?

In short what did we receive that God did not GIVE us? Nothing! And if we have received these things why do we boast as though they were earned and
not a GIFT? 1 Co 4:7
Summed up we believe that God somehow by gifting salvation to us requires Him to burn everybody else in a torturous hell for all eternity whom He has not
gifted salvation to yet.
That doesn't sound like love to me at all.
But rather the opposite.

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam(flesh) all die, even so in Christ(the spirit) all shall be made alive. But EVERY man in his own order.............This agrees with Rom 5:18
Again we come back to an order of salvation, or order of entering into life. Do we make the word of God void simply because we cannot grasp Gods timing
or workings concerning these things? Hardly. We cannot stop what He sent His word to accomplish. Isa 55:11

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one(Adam) judgement came upon ALL men to condemnation,................Is there anyone who believes that there is even
one person other than Jesus who this did not apply to?
2nd half Even so by the righteous act of one(Jesus), the FREE GIFT came upon ALL men to justification of life. Is there anyone that believes ALL is really just
some or is this portion of the verse a misprint, a lie?

Who bought and paid for you with His own blood? Is He not your owner then? Are you His to do whatsoever He will with you? 1Co 6:20 1 Co 7:23
And if He paid for your redemption from the condemnation that you were born into, why would He want anything other than fellowship with you?

Off subject but can anyone account for all the people who were born prior to the giving of the Holy Ghost or those who will be born and die during
the millenial reign? Where do they come into play concerning EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER? Obviously once the Lord returns and Satan is locked
up the process that matures a chosen son of God will stop, and those who have been changed are the first born sons.
When do we get the others into the life that was bought for them by Jesus' blood as Rom 5:18 states?

 

[Br. Bear]

How is salvation provided and to whom is it available?

"Ye are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." KJV
"God saved you by His grace when you believed. And YOU CANT' TAKE CREDIT for this; it is a gift from God." NLT
"For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is NOT from yourselves; IT IS GODS GIFT." CSB

Matt 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, BECAUSE IT IS GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,
BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN."

WHY NOT ALL? BECAUSE THEY ALL WERE NOT CHOSEN? Yes. Now why would that be?
Is it possible that God is only concerned with the first fruits at this time? Sure.

If as the above verses say, that salvation is a gift then God is the picker of the winners and losers yes?
Why? Is it possible that the ones not gifted salvation at this time are the souls used to mature the ones who are chosen? Looks like thats what happened to Jesus.
He was matured. perfected etc... when there was only Him, and all the rest were not as they had not the Holy Ghost yet.
Now when it was given we are told that God saved "SUCH AS SHOULD BE SAVED", so why should those who were saved be saved? The Fathers choice? Yes.
It is the Father who works His will according to His purposes that He purposed in Himself before the world was formed.

Do we suppose that Jesus or Paul knew who God would choose? Paul definitely not, Jesus maybe but the word MAY was used simply because they
did not know whom God would choose or when.
If I were preaching in a crowd of say 100 people, do you think that God would save them all that very day? No. But it is possible as it is the goodness of God
that leadeth thee to repentance. But unless God acts on your behalf you ain't gonna repent, unless God gives the heart Faith necessary to believe you ain't
gonna believe. See above.
Now if the person does not receive from God that which is necessary to believe, how are they held accountable for not having received what was never given?

In short what did we receive that God did not GIVE us? Nothing! And if we have received these things why do we boast as though they were earned and
not a GIFT? 1 Co 4:7
Summed up we believe that God somehow by gifting salvation to us requires Him to burn everybody else in a torturous hell for all eternity whom He has not
gifted salvation to yet.
That doesn't sound like love to me at all.
But rather the opposite.

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam(flesh) all die, even so in Christ(the spirit) all shall be made alive. But EVERY man in his own order.............This agrees with Rom 5:18
Again we come back to an order of salvation, or order of entering into life. Do we make the word of God void simply because we cannot grasp Gods timing
or workings concerning these things? Hardly. We cannot stop what He sent His word to accomplish. Isa 55:11

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one(Adam) judgement came upon ALL men to condemnation,................Is there anyone who believes that there is even
one person other than Jesus who this did not apply to?
2nd half Even so by the righteous act of one(Jesus), the FREE GIFT came upon ALL men to justification of life. Is there anyone that believes ALL is really just
some or is this portion of the verse a misprint, a lie?

Who bought and paid for you with His own blood? Is He not your owner then? Are you His to do whatsoever He will with you? 1Co 6:20 1 Co 7:23
And if He paid for your redemption from the condemnation that you were born into, why would He want anything other than fellowship with you?

Off subject but can anyone account for all the people who were born prior to the giving of the Holy Ghost or those who will be born and die during
the millenial reign? Where do they come into play concerning EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER? Obviously once the Lord returns and Satan is locked
up the process that matures a chosen son of God will stop, and those who have been changed are the first born sons.
When do we get the others into the life that was bought for them by Jesus' blood as Rom 5:18 states?

Greetings,

Can you please tell me why we find instruction to take up your cross and follow Jesus?
Surely, under your suggestions (above) @Samson2020 , the Lord would not expect such a thing and would pick it up for them and carry their cross's for them and would never expect anyone to have to do following?

Do you understand the contradiction here?

Regarding

1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam(flesh) all die, even so in Christ(the spirit) all shall be made alive

don't forget the 'in' part. Not sure where your addition of " (the spirit) " comes from?

Matt 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, BECAUSE IT IS GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,
BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN."

WHY NOT ALL? BECAUSE THEY ALL WERE NOT CHOSEN? Yes.

No.
Who was Jesus addressing?
If all be the foundation, where would the Building be? No, because your statement here is used as backing up the gist of your universalist bent that interferes with what is actually written, which is what this thread is addressing; changing meaning to suit different doctrine.

I was recently given a gift which I gave back to the giver. Does that mean I was never given it?

the millenial reign? Where do they come into play concerning EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER?

Again, using a one liner out of context to back up universalism. Perhaps you can't see that? I perceive you do not have bad intent and your belief is genuine but that never automatically equates to truth, does it?

Obviously

Only if the road you are paving is to be believed, ie it is obvious if one accepts the warped rendition that you submit and obviously believe.

I 'speak' to you in love, not war, that I may help you to see what your writings look like. If you accept my help, let us thank God, but you are not obliged to accept even though I choose to offer you my help.

O taste and see that the LORD is good. He will not force that upon you .

Those who believe not, are condemned already, said Jesus. Do you know why? Also, what is 'condemned'?


Bless you ....><>

PS... Please try to keep to the OP and thread

 

[Samson2020]

Can you please tell me why we find instruction to take up your cross and follow Jesus?

Who can take up their cross and follow Him other than those who have received the faith to believe in Him?
This was my point in several posts.
Salvation is the gift of God, but maturity comes in the form of overcoming the world, if that is the goal then the cross is completely necessary for each
individual to carry their own and crucify the flesh. The disciple is chosen to begin that process. "Many are called but few are chosen"

Again, using a one liner out of context to back up universalism. Perhaps you can't see that? I perceive you do not have bad intent and your belief is genuine but that never automatically equates to truth, does it?

Well, 1 Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE
OF THE TRUTH.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

I see these scriptures quite plainly stating that Jesus died for ALL and God will have ALL to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. My position is
completely valid based on these scriptures.
Now if they seem to contradict other scripture then I guess we either have to decide which stance we take or which verses to believe and which to disregard.
But knowing that ALL scripture is given by HG inspiration they do not contradict at all it's just a matter of understanding what were reading.

No.
Who was Jesus addressing?
If all be the foundation, where would the Building be? No, because your statement here is used as backing up the gist of your universalist bent that interferes with what is actually written, which is what this thread is addressing; changing meaning to suit different doctrine.

I was recently given a gift which I gave back to the giver. Does that mean I was never given it?

You actually make my point in that those whom were called, the disciples he speaks to, were given the kingdom information and those not called were left out.
If those uncalled are left out it is because God didn't call them i.e didn't give them the faith necessary to believe yet. "Israel blinded in part until"
And here you are making the assumption that every man has already been gifted the faith necessary and they are rejecting the gift.
How would God mature those he has called out if nobody was contrary to them? The contrary to us world is absolutely necessary for our maturity,
in order to forgive the sin they bring to upon us, the unconditional love in the face of hatred and sarcasm, the giving even though we know were being used etc...
Is this their fault that they are used to mature us? No This is the Mystery of iniquity that Paul speaks of and the reason it exists. 2 Th 2:7

Only if the road you are paving is to be believed, ie it is obvious if one accepts the warped rendition that you submit and obviously believe

I would refer you back to the Mystery of Iniquity I mentioned as the path that matures a called out one of God. Once the forces of Satan and the horde are locked
away those necessary elements won't be available for any maturing in that 1000 yrs as that is Gods day of rest, the 7th 1000 yr period or day.

Those who believe not, are condemned already, said Jesus. Do you know why? Also, what is 'condemned'?

Yes they have been condemned to a fallen carnal mind from the time of Adam. Rom 5:18 speaks to that exact issue. Until the day they taste of the heavenly gift
they will remain in that same state. And that will happen according to Gods order. 1 Co 15:23
Condemned to me is simply being ruled by the mind that is at odds with their even being a God much less adhering to the things He says. We see this in most
everyone and as Paul says we all had our conversation in this mind at times, because we were all condemned from birth to be sinners. If we were not
then we wouldn't need Jesus. But we both know we do so we confess that we are sinners by confessing we need Him.

You and I just don't quite see eye to eye yet, but as we work through these things it will become more clear that the real issue is a time frame.
We as beings who will die see things from a time perspective, God being limitless and not bound by time is able to do what we cannot perceive
He could or would do in order to fulfill His own will. 1Ti 2:3-4

There is a moment in time when a called out one is conceived, the moment the Spirit is given to help one overcome the world, but that happens pretty
slowly, overcoming, so our walk is one of a slow death for we are still in the world and must still function in it.
Shall we call this period a gestational period where in the newly formed embryo begins to read the Bible, hear from the Lord, do the things He asks of
us personally, to confirm us, ie casting out unclean spirits, laying hands on the sick and they recover, speaking what He has given us to say to someone else etc...
and to begin to understand what we have been called for. As that child continues to form into the image of the first born Son He is being
perfected and even that is not his doing for he is to be dead to the things of the world, meaning his actions are centered in loving God and his neighbor
as himself so everything else dies including self for he begins to see what is the hope of what he has been called unto and that is the fullness of God
in him.

I never said anybody gets a free pass to heaven for that is not the goal. The kingdom of God/heaven is the fullness of God residing in you as a son.
ie an heir of God through Christ. "It is Gods good pleasure to give you the kingdom"

Now concerning the Christ(spirit) issue form 1 Co 15 As in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Christ as we both know is the body of all who truly are believers of which Jesus is the head, thus Christ is not a last name, it is the Spirit to which we have
all been baptized into once the Spirit has been given.
This is why I say Christ(spirit).
We know that flesh and blood (Adam) cannot inherit the kingdom of God for it is the spirit in a man destined to be the inheritor of the fullness of God.
Thus when a dead man, in spirit, is born again he becomes one in the same spirit as Jesus, a part of Christ.
Thus the verse is saying that God condemned all flesh to die for the flesh is the center of sin, but even so he has ordained all to life through the gifting
of the Spirit as part of the initial experience of salvation, that is given by grace. Eph 1:10-11 Eph 2:8
And again I am not saying anybody gets a free pass for as Paul stated "Work out your own salvation(maturation) with fear and trembling." Phl 2:12
And that would never begin UNTIL God gives you the faith to believe in the finished work of the cross and the Spirit.

I 'speak' to you in love, not war, that I may help you to see what your writings look like. If you accept my help, let us thank God, but you are not obliged to accept even though I choose to offer you my help.

I can say the same to you as you can not see what is the glorious outcome that God is bringing to fruition. If one is unable to see it sometimes it is because
they have been blinded to it, or have not earned the right to the Hidden Manna that will bring it to light.
Given 1 Ti 2:3-6 I am not sure how the Bible itself could make that statement any clearer. And as I have shown through the years there are many supporting
verses by Jesus and Paul to back them up.
Which just leaves us with how do we reconcile what seems to be contradiction knowing that the Bible does not contradict itself?? All in Gods time.

Peace

I know you guys as moderators have a big job in policing the content of the site, sometimes what we believe is a good thing only takes our time away
from further and higher understanding of the word.
I mean no disrespect and hope none is taken.
As the Lord ask me to ask Him the words of Jeremiah 33:3 some 20 odd yrs ago, I did and He has given
more than I could ever expect or imagine and has shown what is that grand picture that He purposed in Himself before the world began.
He promised life in Titus 1:2 prior to the world and supplied it by the death of His only begotten Son, Thus fulfilling His promise. But it is still up to
Him to decide when a human will begin the maturing process into a son.