The Truth Shall Make You Free

[Charlie24]

The theme of the Holy Bible from the beginning in the Garden of Eden, to the end when the angels proclaim that the Throne the God is with men on the New Earth, is Jesus Christ and Him crucified for the sins of the world. It's a redemption story from beginning to end.

Every single author of the Holy Bible was trying in one way or another, inspired by the Holy Spirit to teach us that Christ is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him.

Before Christ came and sacrificed Himself on the Cross for our sins, His sacrifice was represented by an innocent animal sacrifice in the shedding of its blood. This sacrifice goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden, and we continuously read about it in the Bible.

In John chapter 8, John tells us that Christ came early in the morning to teach in the temple, and many believed on Him (vs. 30). Then Christ said to those who He knew believed,

"If you continue in my Word, then are you my disciples indeed, and you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free." (vs. 31-32).

Jesus Christ is the Truth that makes us free! But Christ warns them, "IF you continue in My Word..."

The apostle Paul told us that this Christian walk/life with Christ is a race to the finish line with a prize awaiting the winner. We will all be winners "IF" we continue in His Word, and the Truth shall make us free. Not only in the eternal life to come, but right now in this present life He will set us free from the bondage of sin, the evil in this world. He is the answer for every problem we will face in this life.

 

[Rhema]

His sacrifice was represented by an innocent animal sacrifice in the shedding of its blood.

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV)

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.​

(Isaiah 66:3-4 KJV)

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.​

(Psalms 40:6 KJV)

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.​

(Mark 11:15-17 KJV)

He forbade the sacrifices and even the grain offerings.

In truth,
Rhema

 

[Charlie24]

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV)

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.​

(Isaiah 66:3-4 KJV)

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.​

(Psalms 40:6 KJV)

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.​

(Mark 11:15-17 KJV)

He forbade the sacrifices and even the grain offerings.

In truth,
Rhema

Ok, Rhema, this is fair. Let's take a look at why God didn't desire these sacrifices.

Christ is hidden in the OT Scripture, represented by types and shadows. As time passed in the OT Scripture so did the knowledge of the Messiah.

The first recorded animal sacrifice in Scripture took place in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned and realized they were naked. God provided "coats of skin" to cover them. These animals shed their blood to provide that covering for sin.

Next, Cain and Abel brought sacrifices before the Lord. Abel brought an animal sacrifice and was accepted by God, Cain brought a sacrifice of the fruits of the earth (vegetables) and was rejected.

Cain knew as well as Abel to bring an animal sacrifice before the Lord, but he was in rebellion against God. The Scripture doesn't tell us how they knew to bring an animal sacrifice, but they knew. Maybe God told them and explained it, maybe Adam told them, the Scripture just doesn't tell us. But we know that Cain brought an animal sacrifice before the Lord that represented the sacrifice of the Messiah and God accepted it.

And so it was with Noah and Abraham offering animal sacrifices before the Lord, but now the alter is introduced to offer the sacrifice. Knowledge of the Messiah and His offering is growing. Eventually the animal sacrifice that represented Christ would become the Law of God given to Moses.

You pointed out in Jer. 7:22 that God didn't give instructions to the Hebrews on the animal sacrifice when He led them out of Egypt. That was when the Hebrews, soon to be Israelites, made the biggest mistake possible, and that mistake took root right up to the day Christ came. They were attempting to make the sacrifices into a rite of salvation within themselves. They had lost all understanding as to what these sacrifices represented. Christ was no longer in the sacrifice.

Hosea 6:6-7
"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me."

The true meaning of the animal sacrifice is now lost to the Israelites, the meaning in Christ brought mercy and knowledge, saving mercy and knowledge. This is the biggest mistake that Israel could have possibly committed against God. He says, "they have dealt treacherously with me."

 

[Rhema]

Ok, Rhema, this is fair. Let's take a look at why God didn't desire these sacrifices.

God never desired any sacrifices. ever.

So God frees his people in quite a dramatic way (i.e. the Exodus) and they arrive at the Holy Mountain. Did they sacrifice to the God who freed them? No. Did the God who freed them say, "Okay, you're here, Rejoice !!! Now let's have a couple of those dead animals and blood sacrifices offered up to me." No. He didn't.

Read the text yourself. With a fine tooth comb.

When the Hebrews get to Mount Sinai (the real one located in Saudi Arabia), who does the animal-blood-sacrifice-burnt-offering thing? Moses? No. His father in law did.... Jethro, a Priest of Midian. (LINK)

But Jethro didn't even know that YHWH was greater than all the gods !!! (It says so.)

I'd say trust me because I've been through this word by word, but DON'T trust me. It is necessary for you to find out for yourself. But we'll hit the highlights.

And Jethro, Moses' father in law, came with his sons and his wife unto Moses into the wilderness, where he encamped at the mount of God:​

(Exodus 18:5 KJV)

And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them.​

(Exodus 18:8 KJV)

And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.​

(Exodus 18:10-12 KJV)

Jethro, a not priest of YHWH taught Moses the burnt offering and blood sacrifices thing. Jeremiah was truthful that God said no such thing.

So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.​

(Exodus 18:24 KJV)

Christ is hidden in the OT Scripture, represented by types and shadows.

Types and shadows are Fake Doctrine. Christian fiction. There is no scripture verse where Jesus ever says this. Christ is not hidden. The prophecies are clear and shout to the rooftops.

The first recorded animal sacrifice in Scripture took place in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned and realized they were naked. God provided "coats of skin" to cover them. These animals shed their blood to provide that covering for sin.

Again, Fake Doctrine. But it's a popular Evangelical fiction. YES, God provided furs. It gets cold when it snows, and fig leaves weren't going to cut it. But nowhere in the narrative are these animals EVER presented or described or postured as "animal sacrifices." Sacrifices to whom? Were these sacrifices to God? How? God killed them. Did God make animal sacrifices to himself? Even you have to admit that sounds weird. Did Adam and Eve sacrifice to God? No. God killed the animals. So... no sacrifice.

The animals didn't shed their blood. (That's your exact words... QUOTE... "These animals shed their blood." UNQUOTE. No they didn't. God did. Given the damage done to the planet, the truth, the message, the purpose of God giving them new clothes of fur was to give permission (by example) for men to kill animals. You go beyond what is written and fabricate Christian fairy tales.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

(Genesis 3:21 KJV)

And that's it.

That's all you have to go by. There's not a single word about blood. There's not a single word about sacrifice. And for all we know, the "skins" may have been those normally shed by snakes who were still alive, although the LXX tends to use "skins" for leather goods.

The premise rejects itself if one does not go beyond what is written.

Next, Cain and Abel brought sacrifices before the Lord. Abel brought an animal sacrifice and was accepted by God, Cain brought a sacrifice of the fruits of the earth (vegetables) and was rejected.

No.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but again, you added words. "Accepted" is not in the text. "Rejected" is not in the text.

Just read the actual Hebrew and then read the Strong's entry for H8159. I won't explain further here, other than to say that you've been lied to by your tradition and your translators' bias. But you're smart enough to work it out for yourself.

Cain knew as well as Abel to bring an animal sacrifice before the Lord,

How?

How did Cain know? There is nothing in scripture that says "Cain knew." And YOU even admit this.

This is why I'M in the Twilight Zone, Charlie, because y'all add things into the text and then swear that they're written there when they are not. And that's why you're in the Twilight Zone, because your teachers added things into their interpretations and you didn't check twice like Santa does.

The Scripture doesn't tell us how they knew to bring an animal sacrifice, but they knew.

If you are SO willing to make up $%^@ and then swear to it, then there's no further reason for us to discuss anything. Please stop turning the Bible into a comic book. This is the kind of stuff that makes Christianity a laughingstock.

But we know that Cain brought an animal sacrifice before the Lord that represented the sacrifice of the Messiah and God accepted it.

No.

That's not knowledge, that's fiction. And I am stunned that you can't see the difference.
(And I'm pretty sure you meant to say Abel....) Do I even have to fix your work now?

And so it was with Noah and Abraham offering animal sacrifices before the Lord, but now the alter is introduced to offer the sacrifice.

God never told Abraham to sacrifice an animal. Period. If you think so, then you didn't actually read the book (English or otherwise).

Go read it again. And this time slowly. If you can show one verse where GOD told Abraham to sacrifice an animal, I will leave this forum permanently.

And as for Noah...

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. ​

(Genesis 9:3-6 KJV)

God forbade the shedding of man's blood by man.

And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.​

(Genesis 8:20 KJV)

Where did God command Noah to do this? He didn't. Noah did. Noah decided to do that on his own. And in verse 21, the LXX records that God smelled a "foul odor" "journeying up across the way." But take a step back. Get an overview of the narrative.

Noah offers up many sacrifices, yes? But look at God's reaction to this:

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.​

(Genesis 8:21 KJV)

Charlie, God just killed everybody on the earth but Noah's family, right? So then Noah offers up these burnt offerings, and God's next thought was "the imagination of man's heart IS evil from his youth." Not was, but IS. So God says, nope won't do it anymore. Won't curse the ground (since that didn't work did it?). Won't smite all living things anymore, (since that didn't work either). Nope I'm done, not gonna do it.... for the imagination of man's heart IS evil from his youth

Noah kills these animals, and God says "man's heart is evil..."

Why didn't God say, "Rejoice, there is no more evil on the earth." Because the one righteous person he just saved went and killed animals as a gift to God. Instead God said, "...man's heart is evil..."

The burnt offerings of Noah came from Noah's imagination - for the imagination of man's heart IS evil from his youth

Eventually the animal sacrifice that represented Christ would become the Law of God given to Moses.

The Law? The LAW? You don't have the Law.

How can you say, "We are wise, and the law (TORAH) of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

You pointed out in Jer. 7:22 that God didn't give instructions to the Hebrews on the animal sacrifice when He led them out of Egypt. That was when the Hebrews, soon to be Israelites, made the biggest mistake possible, and that mistake took root right up to the day Christ came. They were attempting to make the sacrifices into a rite of salvation within themselves. They had lost all understanding as to what these sacrifices represented. Christ was no longer in the sacrifice.

Christ was never in the sacrifice, because God never ever gave them any command to sacrifice.

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV)

I'd say read the entirety of Jeremiah 7 and 8, but I'm not sure you can take off your rose colored (okay blood colored) glasses. And Jeremiah did not limit the declaration of God to a time limit. Rather God distinctly declared through the Prophet Jeremiah that during the time Frame when the blood animal sacrifices were encoded into the TORAH by the lying scribes, God said nothing and gave no such command.

Hosea 6:6-7

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.​

(Hosea 6:6-7 KJV)

YES. ABSOLUTELY. They transgressed the covenant that had NO such thing as animal sacrifices and dealt treacherously against God by adding in all the burnt animal sacrificial blood offering things to what God revealed.

The true meaning of the animal sacrifice is now lost to the Israelites

There is no true meaning to what God doesn't command.

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you." Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but, in the stubbornness of their evil will, they walked in their own counsels, and looked backward rather than forward.​

(Jeremiah 7:22-24 NRSV)

God said not one dang thing about burnt offerings and blood sacrifices. But the command He did give was, "Obey my voice (what I SAY) and things will be well with you." But they did not obey and in the stubbornness of their evil will, they looked backward and walking in their own counsels, institutionalized burnt offerings and blood sacrifices.

He says, "they have dealt treacherously with me."

Yes, by creating Sacrificial Atonement, which finally turned the Messiah into a human blood sacrifice offered up to the gods to appease His wrath by blood payment. They turned the Messiah who spoke against sacrifice into a human sacrifice himself.

I just cannot be an Aztec Christian, Charlie. The Truth of Jesus' teachings about the Forgiveness of Sin shall set you free from Blood payment for sin.

I know it's a lot to take in, but I've addressed each of your concerns here. Just don't reject things out of hand. (And I know there should be more questions.)

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Charlie24]

God never desired any sacrifices. ever.

So God frees his people in quite a dramatic way (i.e. the Exodus) and they arrive at the Holy Mountain. Did they sacrifice to the God who freed them? No. Did the God who freed them say, "Okay, you're here, Rejoice !!! Now let's have a couple of those dead animals and blood sacrifices offered up to me." No. He didn't.

Read the text yourself. With a fine tooth comb.

When the Hebrews get to Mount Sinai (the real one located in Saudi Arabia), who does the animal-blood-sacrifice-burnt-offering thing? Moses? No. His father in law did.... Jethro, a Priest of Midian. (LINK)

But Jethro didn't even know that YHWH was greater than all the gods !!! (It says so.)

I'd say trust me because I've been through this word by word, but DON'T trust me. It is necessary for you to find out for yourself. But we'll hit the highlights.

And Jethro, Moses' father in law, came with his sons and his wife unto Moses into the wilderness, where he encamped at the mount of God:​

(Exodus 18:5 KJV)

And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them.​

(Exodus 18:8 KJV)

And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.​

(Exodus 18:10-12 KJV)

Jethro, a not priest of YHWH taught Moses the burnt offering and blood sacrifices thing. Jeremiah was truthful that God said no such thing.

So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.​

(Exodus 18:24 KJV)


Types and shadows are Fake Doctrine. Christian fiction. There is no scripture verse where Jesus ever says this. Christ is not hidden. The prophecies are clear and shout to the rooftops.


Again, Fake Doctrine. But it's a popular Evangelical fiction. YES, God provided furs. It gets cold when it snows, and fig leaves weren't going to cut it. But nowhere in the narrative are these animals EVER presented or described or postured as "animal sacrifices." Sacrifices to whom? Were these sacrifices to God? How? God killed them. Did God make animal sacrifices to himself? Even you have to admit that sounds weird. Did Adam and Eve sacrifice to God? No. God killed the animals. So... no sacrifice.

The animals didn't shed their blood. (That's your exact words... QUOTE... "These animals shed their blood." UNQUOTE. No they didn't. God did. Given the damage done to the planet, the truth, the message, the purpose of God giving them new clothes of fur was to give permission (by example) for men to kill animals. You go beyond what is written and fabricate Christian fairy tales.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

(Genesis 3:21 KJV)

And that's it.

That's all you have to go by. There's not a single word about blood. There's not a single word about sacrifice. And for all we know, the "skins" may have been those normally shed by snakes who were still alive, although the LXX tends to use "skins" for leather goods.

The premise rejects itself if one does not go beyond what is written.


No.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but again, you added words. "Accepted" is not in the text. "Rejected" is not in the text.

Just read the actual Hebrew and then read the Strong's entry for H8159. I won't explain further here, other than to say that you've been lied to by your tradition and your translators' bias. But you're smart enough to work it out for yourself.


How?

How did Cain know? There is nothing in scripture that says "Cain knew." And YOU even admit this.

This is why I'M in the Twilight Zone, Charlie, because y'all add things into the text and then swear that they're written there when they are not. And that's why you're in the Twilight Zone, because your teachers added things into their interpretations and you didn't check twice like Santa does.


If you are SO willing to make up $%^@ and then swear to it, then there's no further reason for us to discuss anything. Please stop turning the Bible into a comic book. This is the kind of stuff that makes Christianity a laughingstock.


No.

That's not knowledge, that's fiction. And I am stunned that you can't see the difference.
(And I'm pretty sure you meant to say Abel....) Do I even have to fix your work now?


God never told Abraham to sacrifice an animal. Period. If you think so, then you didn't actually read the book (English or otherwise).

Go read it again. And this time slowly. If you can show one verse where GOD told Abraham to sacrifice an animal, I will leave this forum permanently.

And as for Noah...

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. ​

(Genesis 9:3-6 KJV)

God forbade the shedding of man's blood by man.

And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.​

(Genesis 8:20 KJV)

Where did God command Noah to do this? He didn't. Noah did. Noah decided to do that on his own. And in verse 21, the LXX records that God smelled a "foul odor" "journeying up across the way." But take a step back. Get an overview of the narrative.

Noah offers up many sacrifices, yes? But look at God's reaction to this:

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.​

(Genesis 8:21 KJV)

Charlie, God just killed everybody on the earth but Noah's family, right? So then Noah offers up these burnt offerings, and God's next thought was "the imagination of man's heart IS evil from his youth." Not was, but IS. So God says, nope won't do it anymore. Won't curse the ground (since that didn't work did it?). Won't smite all living things anymore, (since that didn't work either). Nope I'm done, not gonna do it.... for the imagination of man's heart IS evil from his youth

Noah kills these animals, and God says "man's heart is evil..."

Why didn't God say, "Rejoice, there is no more evil on the earth." Because the one righteous person he just saved went and killed animals as a gift to God. Instead God said, "...man's heart is evil..."

The burnt offerings of Noah came from Noah's imagination - for the imagination of man's heart IS evil from his youth



The Law? The LAW? You don't have the Law.

How can you say, "We are wise, and the law (TORAH) of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)


Christ was never in the sacrifice, because God never ever gave them any command to sacrifice.

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV)

I'd say read the entirety of Jeremiah 7 and 8, but I'm not sure you can take off your rose colored (okay blood colored) glasses. And Jeremiah did not limit the declaration of God to a time limit. Rather God distinctly declared through the Prophet Jeremiah that during the time Frame when the blood animal sacrifices were encoded into the TORAH by the lying scribes, God said nothing and gave no such command.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.​

(Hosea 6:6-7 KJV)

YES. ABSOLUTELY. They transgressed the covenant that had NO such thing as animal sacrifices and dealt treacherously against God by adding in all the burnt animal sacrificial blood offering things to what God revealed.



There is no true meaning to what God doesn't command.

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you." Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but, in the stubbornness of their evil will, they walked in their own counsels, and looked backward rather than forward.​

(Jeremiah 7:22-24 NRSV)

God said not one dang thing about burnt offerings and blood sacrifices. But the command He did give was, "Obey my voice (what I SAY) and things will be well with you." But they did not obey and in the stubbornness of their evil will, they looked backward and walking in their own counsels, institutionalized burnt offerings and blood sacrifices.


Yes, by creating Sacrificial Atonement, which finally turned the Messiah into a human blood sacrifice offered up to the gods to appease His wrath by blood payment. They turned the Messiah who spoke against sacrifice into a human sacrifice himself.

I just cannot be an Aztec Christian, Charlie. The Truth of Jesus' teachings about the Forgiveness of Sin shall set you free from Blood payment for sin.

I know it's a lot to take in, but I've addressed each of your concerns here. Just don't reject things out of hand. (And I know there should be more questions.)

Kindly,
Rhema

My Lord, this is almost unbelievable! You are one confused individual, Rhema!!!

You're supposed be some kind of a scholar and you can't even recognize Christ as the type of the forgiveness of sin in the animal sacrifice from the very beginning of man.

God explains it in Lev. 17:11,

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

From the very beginning man was saved and his sins forgiven through faith in what the animal sacrifice represented, faith in the coming Messiah. The shedding of blood that Christ would shed for man.

God even shows us how the sin is transferred from the sinner to the animal by laying his hand upon the head of the animal. Just as our sin is laid upon Christ when we accept Him as our Savior.

Lev. 4:24-26
"And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the Lord: it is a sin offering.

And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.

And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him."

 

[Rhema]

My Lord, this is almost unbelievable! You are one confused individual, Rhema!!!

And yet you are the one involved in a religion that offers up the blood of a human sacrifice to pay for your sins.

Quoting the Law of Leviticus does not help. How Could it?

How can you say, "We are wise, and the law (TORAH) of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

Have you never dealt with these two chapters (7&8). Have you never considered their astonishing truth?

You are one confused individual, Rhema!!!

And yet, I'm not the one offering up blood from a human sacrifice to appease and pay God for my sins. That's how far pagan idolatry has adulterated the Gospel message of Jesus. The same pagan idolatry of the Canaanites that adulterated Judaism.

The Jews were taught through the corruption of the TORAH (to which Jeremiah testified above) that they had to make blood animal sacrificial offerings to be forgiven their sins. That's obvious. Forgiveness was granted by their god at the day of atonement (Yom Kippur). Yet Jesus shut down ALL offerings and sacrifices in the Temple including Yom Kippur.

And that's the astonishing thing that Jesus taught against.

For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:​

(Jeremiah 7:22 KJV)

Have you never dealt with these two chapters (7&8)? Have you never considered their astonishing truth?

I'm not the one confused here, brother. Jesus taught quite plainly about how one is to be forgiven their sins. ASK. Ask the Father. Just ask in repentance, and forgiveness will be given to you by your Father in heaven. (It is a gift.) Jesus even commands this, as "pray" (ask) is in the imperative mood. (It is a command.)

PRAY !!! Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. .... forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. ... For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

(Matthew 6:9, 12, 14-15 KJV)

I seriously ask, don't you believe this? If one repents and asks forgiveness, are they not forgiven? And if one's sins are forgiven, are they not saved? Jesus said that all one needs to do in order to be forgiven is to repent and ask the Father for forgiveness. Don't you believe this?

Now I know you have been taught that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but Mark 1:4 testifies otherwise.

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

(Mark 1:4 NKJV)

Where did John, the cousin of Jesus, ever say, "... and then go kill some animals and offer blood" ???
Where in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus ever say this?
Where in the Sermon on the Plain did Jesus ever say this?

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."​

(Mark 1:14-15 NKJV)

What Gospel? If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached. And Jesus traveled throughout all of Judea preaching the same Gospel that is summed up in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain.

Where did Jesus ever preach that the Father has to be paid for the sins you commit? And where did Jesus ever preach that his blood would pay the Father for the sins you commit? (I'm deadly serous. Tell me. Show me. Quote a JESUS verse.)

You've already committed the blasphemy of saying that Jesus was unable to teach the true Gospel to his Disciples, even though Jesus commanded these very Eleven to teach what He taught...

Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. ... Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.​

(Matthew 28:16, 19-20 NKJV)

Now you might think that they didn't do a very good job, but Jesus would be an idiot to command the Eleven to preach a Gospel that He knew they didn't understand. Especially after spending 40 days of giving them intense instruction after His resurrection.

Note the phrase, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you," and understand that the Lord's Prayer is one of those things that He commanded. ASK the Father, in repentance, to Forgive your sins, and they shall be forgiven, remembering to forgive others. Should we adulterate (add to) this teaching?

I understand your astonishment. The Jews were so astonished that they killed Jesus.

But please don't lose it. You posted quite a number of objections in post #3, and I replied to each one. But you didn't actually process my reply did you? You got hung up on the skin thing, and then shot left down some rabbit hole into Leviticus.

I was hoping that you'd deal with Cain and Able, and Abraham, and Noah.

Can we do that first?

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Dave M]

"If you continue in my Word, then are you my disciples indeed, and you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free." (vs. 31-32).

thank you so much brother !! you know the most spiritual mature believers I know all start there day in the word of God !! Im not sure how one can make it through the day with out the word of God, love this scripture not sure I have seen it before in this light praise him !!

 

[Rhema]

thank you so much brother !! you know the most spiritual mature believers I know all start there day in the word of God !! Im not sure how one can make it through the day with out the word of God, love this scripture not sure I have seen it before in this light praise him !!

Hi Dave,

I just wanted to mention that the definitions of terms we use are very important. By "the word of God" I know you mean the Bible. But when I read "Word of God" I mean the teachings of Jesus.

One of these days, I'll have the entire Sermon on the Mount memorized, if my brain cooperates.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Charlie24]

And yet you are the one involved in a religion that offers up the blood of a human sacrifice to pay for your sins.

Quoting the Law of Leviticus does not help. How Could it?

How can you say, "We are wise, and the law (TORAH) of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

Have you never dealt with these two chapters (7&8). Have you never considered their astonishing truth?


And yet, I'm not the one offering up blood from a human sacrifice to appease and pay God for my sins. That's how far pagan idolatry has adulterated the Gospel message of Jesus. The same pagan idolatry of the Canaanites that adulterated Judaism.

The Jews were taught through the corruption of the TORAH (to which Jeremiah testified above) that they had to make blood animal sacrificial offerings to be forgiven their sins. That's obvious. Forgiveness was granted by their god at the day of atonement (Yom Kippur). Yet Jesus shut down ALL offerings and sacrifices in the Temple including Yom Kippur.

And that's the astonishing thing that Jesus taught against.

For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:​

(Jeremiah 7:22 KJV)

Have you never dealt with these two chapters (7&8)? Have you never considered their astonishing truth?

I'm not the one confused here, brother. Jesus taught quite plainly about how one is to be forgiven their sins. ASK. Ask the Father. Just ask in repentance, and forgiveness will be given to you by your Father in heaven. (It is a gift.) Jesus even commands this, as "pray" (ask) is in the imperative mood. (It is a command.)

PRAY !!! Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. .... forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. ... For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

(Matthew 6:9, 12, 14-15 KJV)

I seriously ask, don't you believe this? If one repents and asks forgiveness, are they not forgiven? And if one's sins are forgiven, are they not saved? Jesus said that all one needs to do in order to be forgiven is to repent and ask the Father for forgiveness. Don't you believe this?

Now I know you have been taught that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but Mark 1:4 testifies otherwise.

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

(Mark 1:4 NKJV)

Where did John, the cousin of Jesus, ever say, "... and then go kill some animals and offer blood" ???
Where in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus ever say this?
Where in the Sermon on the Plain did Jesus ever say this?

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."​

(Mark 1:14-15 NKJV)

What Gospel? If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached. And Jesus traveled throughout all of Judea preaching the same Gospel that is summed up in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain.

Where did Jesus ever preach that the Father has to be paid for the sins you commit? And where did Jesus ever preach that his blood would pay the Father for the sins you commit? (I'm deadly serous. Tell me. Show me. Quote a JESUS verse.)

You've already committed the blasphemy of saying that Jesus was unable to teach the true Gospel to his Disciples, even though Jesus commanded these very Eleven to teach what He taught...

Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. ... Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.​

(Matthew 28:16, 19-20 NKJV)

Now you might think that they didn't do a very good job, but Jesus would be an idiot to command the Eleven to preach a Gospel that He knew they didn't understand. Especially after spending 40 days of giving them intense instruction after His resurrection.

Note the phrase, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you," and understand that the Lord's Prayer is one of those things that He commanded. ASK the Father, in repentance, to Forgive your sins, and they shall be forgiven, remembering to forgive others. Should we adulterate (add to) this teaching?

I understand your astonishment. The Jews were so astonished that they killed Jesus.

But please don't lose it. You posted quite a number of objections in post #3, and I replied to each one. But you didn't actually process my reply did you? You got hung up on the skin thing, and then shot left down some rabbit hole into Leviticus.

I was hoping that you'd deal with Cain and Able, and Abraham, and Noah.

Can we do that first?

Kindly,
Rhema

In case you've forgotten the concept of the Pascal Lamb, let's take a look at where it came from.

1Cor. 5:7
"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:"

John the Baptist introduced Christ as "Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world."

Christ is the fulfillment of the animal sacrifice in the Passover that forgives in.

In Revelation, John seen Him in a vision, "and I seen in the midst of the throne a Lamb as if it had been slain."

Peter called Him, "the perfect Lamb without blemish and without spot."

You're a smart guy, now trace this Lamb back to Genesis with Abraham, Noah, Cain and Abel, to the very Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve.

I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

[Charlie24]

thank you so much brother !! you know the most spiritual mature believers I know all start there day in the word of God !! Im not sure how one can make it through the day with out the word of God, love this scripture not sure I have seen it before in this light praise him !!

I know you love the Scripture and our Lord, I see it very often in your posts!

God bless you, Brother!

 

[Rhema]

In case you've forgotten the concept of the Pascal Lamb, let's take a look at where it came from.

Oh I have most NOT forgotten the concept of the Paschal Lamb.
And I am very well aware from whence it came.
And I know where it did NOT come from.

Did Jesus ever say such a thing? That he was the Paschal Lamb? Or did Jesus say he was the Shepherd? (cf. Mark 14:27)

Charlie, are you going to deal honestly with me or not? I'm trying to establish what Jesus said.

I was hoping that you'd deal with Cain and Able, and Abraham, and Noah.

Can we do that first?

YOU brought up numerous objections, and I've dealt with them. Can you admit that? Maybe not.

So let's address Cain and Abel in more detail. (Without hopping around all over the place.)

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had H8159 unto Abel and to his offering:​

(Genesis 4:4 KJV)

Strong's Entry for H8159:

A primitive root; to gaze at or about (properly for help); by implication to inspect, consider, compassionate, be nonplussed (as looking around in amazement) or bewildered:​

​

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD was bewildered about Abel and his offering:​

(Genesis 4:4)

Abel brings a dead animal to God as an offering, and the LORD gazed at it, looking around for help in amazement because it bewildered him. The God of LIFE is offered a dead animal?

The LXX was so scandalized when trying to translate this, all they could come up with was "looked"-

And Abel also brought of the first born of his sheep and of his fatlings, and God looked upon Abel and his gifts,​

(Genesis 4:4 Brenton)

But the Greek word for "looked upon" is epeidon, and I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Greek Lexicon

A.look upon, behold, see, of evils,​

God was DISMAYED. And lest you think I make this up, let's look at the Hebrew once more - straight up King James.

Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed H8159 ; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.​

(Isaiah 41:10 KJV)

Should I continue? (We can....)

Rhema
Charlie, I am very well aware of what you believe and the house of cards upon which it is built. I'm just trying to deal with one card at a time. I should have done that to begin with.

 

[Curtis]

So let's address Cain and Abel in more detail. (Without hopping around all over the place.)

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering Genesis 4:4 KJV)

Gen 4:4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, (NKJV)

Gen 4:4 But Abel brought the fattest parts of some of the lambs from his flock. They were the male animals that were born first to their mothers. The LORD was pleased with Abel and his offering. (NIRV)

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: (KJV)


Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

[Rhema]

Gen 4:4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, (NKJV)

Gen 4:4 But Abel brought the fattest parts of some of the lambs from his flock. They were the male animals that were born first to their mothers. The LORD was pleased with Abel and his offering. (NIRV)

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: (KJV)

Curtis, how does quoting bad and biased translations prove anything?

The words "respected" and "pleased" and "had respect" are NOT in the Hebrew.

(Did you even read my post?)

It's the Hebrew word that matters, not the perverted and twisted English translations that lie to you.

​

Strong's Entry for H8159:​

A primitive root; to gaze at or about (properly for help); by implication to inspect, consider, compassionate, be nonplussed (as looking around in amazement) or bewildered:​

You could at least make some attempt to prove Strong's wrong. Make some argument that H8159 means something else from some other Hebrew Lexicon.....

Read my post again. It makes perfect sense.

Abel brings a dead animal to the God of LIFE as an offering, and the LORD gazed at it, looking around for help in amazement because it bewildered him. The God of LIFE is offered a dead animal?

Your scribes has made your Bible into a lie.

Don't be led by the blind.

By the love of God,
Rhema

 

[Charlie24]

Oh I have most NOT forgotten the concept of the Paschal Lamb.
And I am very well aware from whence it came.
And I know where it did NOT come from.

Did Jesus ever say such a thing? That he was the Paschal Lamb? Or did Jesus say he was the Shepherd? (cf. Mark 14:27)

Charlie, are you going to deal honestly with me or not? I'm trying to establish what Jesus said.


YOU brought up numerous objections, and I've dealt with them. Can you admit that? Maybe not.

So let's address Cain and Abel in more detail. (Without hopping around all over the place.)

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had H8159 unto Abel and to his offering:​

(Genesis 4:4 KJV)

Strong's Entry for H8159:

A primitive root; to gaze at or about (properly for help); by implication to inspect, consider, compassionate, be nonplussed (as looking around in amazement) or bewildered:​

​

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD was bewildered about Abel and his offering:​

(Genesis 4:4)

Abel brings a dead animal to God as an offering, and the LORD gazed at it, looking around for help in amazement because it bewildered him. The God of LIFE is offered a dead animal?

The LXX was so scandalized when trying to translate this, all they could come up with was "looked"-

And Abel also brought of the first born of his sheep and of his fatlings, and God looked upon Abel and his gifts,​

(Genesis 4:4 Brenton)

But the Greek word for "looked upon" is epeidon, and I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Greek Lexicon

A.look upon, behold, see, of evils,​

God was DISMAYED. And lest you think I make this up, let's look at the Hebrew once more - straight up King James.

Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed H8159 ; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.​

(Isaiah 41:10 KJV)

Should I continue? (We can....)

Rhema
Charlie, I am very well aware of what you believe and the house of cards upon which it is built. I'm just trying to deal with one card at a time. I should have done that to begin with.

I rest my case on your being reckless with the Word of God!

@Curtis laid it out perfectly, but you will not accept it.

 

[Rhema]

I rest my case on your being reckless with the Word of God!

@Curtis laid it out perfectly, but you will not accept it.

And I rest my case that you deny Jesus and his teachings before men, dealing dishonorably with the Hebrew scriptures. I laid it out perfectly, but you will not accept it.

As you are well aware, the book of Hebrews (Curtis' "proof"?) teaches that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but Mark 1:4 testifies otherwise. I already showed you this, and you reject it.

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

(Mark 1:4 NKJV)

John taught a remission of sin without the shedding of blood. Where did John, the cousin of Jesus, ever say, "... and then go kill some animals and offer blood sacrifices" ???

Was John the Baptizer wrong?

And will you be honorable to actually answer that question = Was John the Baptizer wrong?
(It's a simple yes or no.)

And Jesus taught a remission of sin without the shedding of blood. Where in the Sermon on the Mount or in the Sermon on the Plain did Jesus ever say this? Repent, be baptized and offer blood? Show me. It should be easy.

At Pentecost, when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit, what did he preach?
Offer blood sacrifices? Burnt offerings? Did Peter preach that they should proclaim that Jesus' blood pays for their sins?

NO. You want to honor the Word - then Honor it.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.​

(Acts 2:37-41 KJV)

Why was that generation untoward? Because they relied upon their sacrifices of blood and burnt animals to pay God to "forgive" them.

I've given you Three proofs from John tB, Peter, and Jesus Himself, and you reject the testimony of all three based on a book whose author is unknown. (You even reject the proclamations of the prophet Jeremiah, and then accuse ME of being reckless? )

Ok, Rhema, this is fair.

Then deal with the issues I've presented instead of getting emotionally bent out of shape, hurting accusations and storming off in a huff.

You want a civil conversation, then be civil and present your case. Prove that the three testimonies I've presented are wrong.

Rhema

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.​

(John 9:41 KJV)

 

[Charlie24]

And I rest my case that you deny Jesus and his teachings before men, dealing dishonorably with the Hebrew scriptures. I laid it out perfectly, but you will not accept it.

As you are well aware, the book of Hebrews (Curtis' "proof"?) teaches that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but Mark 1:4 testifies otherwise. I already showed you this, and you reject it.

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

(Mark 1:4 NKJV)

John taught a remission of sin without the shedding of blood. Where did John, the cousin of Jesus, ever say, "... and then go kill some animals and offer blood sacrifices" ???

Was John the Baptizer wrong?

And will you be honorable to actually answer that question = Was John the Baptizer wrong?
(It's a simple yes or no.)

And Jesus taught a remission of sin without the shedding of blood. Where in the Sermon on the Mount or in the Sermon on the Plain did Jesus ever say this? Repent, be baptized and offer blood? Show me. It should be easy.

At Pentecost, when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit, what did he preach?
Offer blood sacrifices? Burnt offerings? Did Peter preach that they should proclaim that Jesus' blood pays for their sins?

NO. You want to honor the Word - then Honor it.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.​

(Acts 2:37-41 KJV)

Why was that generation untoward? Because they relied upon their sacrifices of blood and burnt animals to pay God to "forgive" them.

I've given you Three proofs from John tB, Peter, and Jesus Himself, and you reject the testimony of all three based on a book whose author is unknown. (You even reject the proclamations of the prophet Jeremiah, and then accuse ME of being reckless? )


Then deal with the issues I've presented instead of getting emotionally bent out of shape, hurting accusations and storming off in a huff.

You want a civil conversation, then be civil and present your case. Prove that the three testimonies I've presented are wrong.

Rhema

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.​

(John 9:41 KJV)

This just keeps getting worse! Hebrews 9:22 plainly states "without the shedding of blood there is no remission."

The animal sacrifices that represented Christ could only cover sin and it was forgiven. But when Christ came He took away the sin, in which the animal sacrifices could not do.

The animal sacrifice goes all the way back to the beginning, and there is no forgiveness of sins without that shedding of blood through the animals blood that represented Christ.

Then came the Law with the Sacrificial System where God explained the animal Sacrifice. It was the Blood that atoned for the soul. Lev. 17:11. This Blood represented the Blood of Christ to come that would take away sin.

John the Baptist preached Repentance of sins by faith in Christ for salvation. The people had forgotten and long lost the value of the true meaning of the sacrifice. But that would not stop Christ from fulfilling the type/shadow of the animal sacrifice in His own Blood.

 

[Charlie24]

This just keeps getting worse! Hebrews 9:22 plainly states "without the shedding of blood there is no remission."

The animal sacrifices that represented Christ could only cover sin and it was forgiven. But when Christ came He took away the sin, in which the animal sacrifices could not do.

The animal sacrifice goes all the way back to the beginning, and there is no forgiveness of sins without that shedding of blood through the animals blood that represented Christ.

Then came the Law with the Sacrificial System where God explained the animal Sacrifice. It was the Blood that atoned for the soul. Lev. 17:11. This Blood represented the Blood of Christ to come that would take away sin.

John the Baptist preached Repentance of sins by faith in Christ for salvation. The people had forgotten and long lost the value of the true meaning of the sacrifice. But that would not stop Christ from fulfilling the type/shadow of the animal sacrifice in His own Blood.

Something tht may help to understand this is Rom. 5:13,

“(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”

During the days of Abraham, Noah, Cain and Abel, as well as Adam and Eve, there was no Law of God.

There was no sin imputed to these before the Law but they were still sinners by nature, and they faced the punishment of such.

They only know what God told them! Even though it's not written in Scripture, we know that God told them about the purpose of the animal sacrifice that represented the Coming Messiah.

How else would they know anything about the animal sacrifice? How would they know to offer an animal sacrifice?

It was the faith in the blood of those animal sacrifices that represented the coming Messiah that they were found righteous before God.

 

[Rhema]

This just keeps getting worse! Hebrews 9:22 plainly states "without the shedding of blood there is no remission."

I'm glad you see how bad things can get.

WAS JOHN THE BAPTIZER WRONG?

Why can't you bring yourself to answer this simple question?

You remind me of the Pharisees:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.​

(Matthew 21:24-26 KJV)

So then, Charlie, the baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven? or of men?

If of heaven, then John did... "preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" without a shedding of blood (cf. Mark 1:4).

Were those baptized into repentance for the remission of sin NOT saved, though there was no blood?

Whatever point that the author of Hebrews was trying to make, it's most certain that he did not have at hand a copy of the Synoptic Gospels or he would have known of a remission of sin without the shedding of blood. Christ even warned of false preaches and false gospels coming after him.

I'm tempted to stop here and press you for an answer, but I doubt I'll get an honest answer from you about John, without you hopping all over the place into things that John tB did not say, and things that Jesus did not say.

What I'll leave you with is what the Son of God, the Messiah (whom you say you believe) taught...

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.​

(Mark 1:14-15 KJV)

Can you let the Truth set you free? (as the OP claims....)

By the teachings of Jesus,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

John the Baptist preached Repentance of sins by faith in Christ for salvation.

I am perplexed. Why do you make things up?

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.​

(Acts 19:2-6 KJV)

Here we have people who were actually baptized into John's baptism, and they heard nothing of "faith in Christ for salvation," or even the existence of the Holy Ghost. Neither did Paul say that John "preached Repentance of sins by faith in Christ for salvation." (I put what Paul did say about John in bold, so we can be clear about this.)

Did these people lie? Did John just forget and leave that part out one day when preaching "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins"? Did Paul lie?

Look at the testimony found in the Gospel according to John -

And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. For John was not yet cast into prison.​

(John 3:23-24 KJV)

You claim that John tB preached FOLLOW JESUS (or Follow Christ), but it doesn't say that here. To make that claim, it needs to be written that way. (I recall you saying that you "fill in the blanks." And yet I'M the one being accused of being reckless with scripture? Interesting.)

Granted, John tB did preach that another would come after him, and did prophecy of Acts 2.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.​

(Matthew 3:11-12 KJV)

But then what happened in Acts 19? Where is it written that John tB went around the countryside preaching "FOLLOW JESUS !!" As I have shown, such a claim isn't in the Gospel according to John or even the synoptics, because he didn't. John tB did not run around preaching "follow Christ," or "follow Jesus." It is written that John tB wondered if Jesus was even the right guy!

Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?​

(Matthew 11:2-3 KJV)

When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?​

(Luke 7:20 KJV)

And John tB certainly did not preach that Jesus' blood would pay for sins. He preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sin (with water as seal of surety). Such baptism is also the foundation of the teachings of Jesus, the one who came after John.

Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; ... From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:12, 17 KJV)

This same firm foundation taught by John tB and Jesus is even proclaimed by Peter in Acts 2.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ​

(Acts 2:37-38 KJV)

Read and read and read that passage again. Peter said nothing of Jesus' blood paying for sins at all. (But I recall you claiming that Peter didn't know what he was talking about.) Now repent means, to ask forgiveness. "... in the name of Jesus Christ" means to follow the teachings that Jesus proclaimed.

Did Jesus preach more than what John did? Yes, of course. But Jesus taught the same clear path to forgiveness as did John. A path of asking the Father in prayer, where the mercy of the Father is to forgive sin, although the surety of Jesus is the (actual) indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Who are those misled people who declare that the Father cannot forgive sin? Who are those who deny the sovereignty of the Father to forgive sin?

In renouncing the forgiveness (same word as remission) of sin by the Father without a shedding of blood, they are none of His. They reject the teachings of Jesus. .... Unless you can show me where Jesus preached this. After all, shouldn't the Truth set us free?

In the name of Jesus,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Even though it's not written in Scripture, we know that God told them about the purpose of the animal sacrifice that represented the Coming Messiah.