The Two Witnesses Again:

[tulsa 2011]

The Two Witnesses Again: On the Two Olive Trees, and Their "Killing" By the Beast of the Bottomless Pit


"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Revelation 11: 4

This is a reference to Zechariah 4: 2-3

"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3. And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof." Zechariah 4: 2-3

Ezra 3: 3 and 3: 8 explain that Jeshua and Zerubbabel were important in the rebuilding of the Wall and Temple at Jerusalem.
"Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God." Ezra 3: 3

"Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD." Ezra 3: 8

The first part of Revelation 11 is a kind of very short history of the Body of Christ. Jeshua and Zerubbabel, the two leaders in the rebuilding of Jerusalem, represent the restoration of Israel and its transformation in Christ - who can be seen metaphorically as olive trees, and the oil of grace as the truth.

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified............And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Even John Gill (1697-1771) in his commentary on Revelation 11 did not believe the Two Witnesses were literally two men. He says "And I will give power unto my two witnesses,.... By whom are meant, not Enoch and Elias, as some of the ancient fathers thought...........but these witnesses intend the ministers of the Gospel and churches of Christ, who have bore testimony for Christ, and against antichrist, ever since he appeared in the world; "

I would have to add that the Two Witnesses not only represent the ministers of the Gospel but also all the elect of Christ who are viewed in this chapter.

Nor did John Gill, writing before Christian Zionism began in the 19th century, think that the beast who comes up out of the bottomless pit literally kills the Two Witnesses. He says "And kill them; not corporeally, but civilly; for as their dead bodies lying three days and a half, that is, three years and a half, unburied, and their resurrection from the dead, and ascension to heaven, cannot be understood literally............they will be silenced; they will be banished, or removed into corners."

The Two Witnesses, representing, as Gill says, many ministers of the Gospel of Christ, are "killed" by the beast who comes up out of the bottomless pit. Gill says this beast is the "Romish antichrist," but he is the same entity seen in Revelation 9: 1-2, 11, the angel of the bottomless pit, a fallen angel or demon, called Abaddon and Apollyon. Since fallen angels do not run around literally killing people, this is a clue that the killing is metaphor. The beast or angel of the bottomless pit inspires the huge number of false prophets seen in Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 to "kill" the spiritual life in the Two Witnesses.

The Two Witnesses, after they are spiritually "killed" by the false prophets inspired by the beast of the bottomless pit are given spiritual life by the Spirit of God in Revelation 11: 11.

 

[james1523]

I like John Gill but in this instance he is merely exercising abstract through and imagination. The two witnesses are not symbolic for the church, but are literally two men. The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, Law and Prophets. They do the same things that Moses and Elijah did. There are at least 10 scriptures which confirm this. There is less proof that the two witnesses are the church. Most clear proof is Mal 4:5, Matt 17:11, where Jesus says Elijah will come before He returns.

 

[Travis]

Most clear proof is Mal 4:5, Matt 17:11, where Jesus says Elijah will come before He returns.

I think this whole topic is a really fascinating one. I have a lot of my own opinions about it.

But, I just want to add one thing that might stir some conversation.

Jesus seems to insinuate that at least part of the fulfillment of the last verse of the book of Malachi was in John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

So it would seem that the spirit of Elijah came before Jesus's first coming, not the actual Elijah. Maybe there is some room for someone other than the literal "Elijah," coming before his second coming as well?

Just something I think about.

Grace and peace from the Lord Jesus Christ,

Travis

 

[james1523]

I think this whole topic is a really fascinating one. I have a lot of my own opinions about it.

But, I just want to add one thing that might stir some conversation.

Jesus seems to insinuate that at least part of the fulfillment of the last verse of the book of Malachi was in John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

So it would seem that the spirit of Elijah came before Jesus's first coming, not the actual Elijah. Maybe there is some room for someone other than the literal "Elijah," coming before his second coming as well?

Just something I think about.

Grace and peace from the Lord Jesus Christ,

Travis

Yes Mal 4:5 also applies to John. In the same way that Jesus came and will come, in a number of various ways, Elijah also came and will come, in a number of ways. But the actual, literal fulfillment of Mal 4:5 will be during the great tribulation, I believe. Rev 11, the language is very specific as referring to individuals, rather than corporate entities such as the church or gospel missionaries. So I think there is room for someone other than the Elijah (perhaps even John the Baptist?), but Elijah and Moses themselves would be prime candidates, considering that God gave special treatment of their bodies, and I think that is somehow significant, in that their bodies are preserved for a future return. In Luke 1:17, the angel is more explicit in saying that John came in the "spirit of Elijah", so we can be certain about John.

 

[Trax]

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth:
at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Before Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain were judged and destroyed, the Lord sent two
witnesses. This is God's due process. Its His law and He is going to have two witnesses in place.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth:
at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Before Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain were judged and destroyed, the Lord sent two
witnesses. This is God's due process. Its His law and He is going to have two witnesses in place.

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of My Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.
Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before His face into every city and place, whither He Himself would come.
Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with Him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Mark 16:12-13 After that He appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And then also there were the two fish that were given for the multitude to eat (see : Luke 9:13 & Matthew 14:19)

Bless you ....><>

 

[Byfaith]

I like John Gill but in this instance he is merely exercising abstract through and imagination. The two witnesses are not symbolic for the church, but are literally two men. The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, Law and Prophets. They do the same things that Moses and Elijah did. There are at least 10 scriptures which confirm this. There is less proof that the two witnesses are the church. Most clear proof is Mal 4:5, Matt 17:11, where Jesus says Elijah will come before He returns.

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
(Mat 17:11-13)

Jesus said Elijah will come before he "Returns"?? Good luck finding that scripture. References to Elijah were to Mal and John the Baptist.

Also, just one place it reads.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
(Luk 1:17)
The Greek is not denoting the actual spirit of Elias, but it denotes John shall come in that same spirit (Power God gives through the Holy Spirit) and same power God gave Elijah.

The two witnesses are people we don't yet know, for the same Anointing on Elijah is here today, as it was for John the Baptist.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
(Mal 4:5-6)

Jesus said at least part of this has already happened. He comes before the day of the Lord which is referenced to the 6th and 7th seal. Unless your a preterist, then the 6th and 7th seal are still in our future. One issue with reading these types of Bible passages is that the Lord considers the End of days starting with the last 2,000 years and when Jesus was here.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 1:2)

So before the great and dreadful day of he Lord could mean 2,000 years ago Before.Since the last days started to tick after Jesus came.