Trinity: Is Jesus really God?
- Thread starter Yollie
- Start date
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,620
Yes x 2.
"In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God." Gospel of John 1:1
In this single phrase, you see the Word ( Jesus) is both with God and is God
In the same book of John in 17:3 Jesus himself said that his Father was the only true God. If his father is the only true God, what kind of god is Jesus? Also, in the Greek which John used when writing John 1:1 John used the definite article "the" when he said in the beginning was "the" word and also when he wrote "the" word was with God, but left it out when he said and word was god. You might know that there is no indefinite article a, an in the Greek. I don't think he did this by accident. It was the only way he could show that Jesus was not "the" God.
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,073
One of the foremost experts in Koine Greek, Dr. Danial Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary, said that in his decades of reading Greek, even he cannot find a pattern for the use of the definite or indefinite article.
As a modern example, Americans say, "I'm going to the hospital." While the Brits would say, "I'm going to hosptial."
And in America there is a difference between, "I'm going to church," and "I'm going to the church."
If you search, there are a number of threads here on the Trinity, and from what I gather, the moderators tend to frown on discussion about the Trinity, because such threads multiply like weeds and become pretty contentious.
If one relies on the Bible, Jesus was the Son of God - the only one physically born.
Peter:
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
(Acts 2:22 KJV)Paul:
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(Acts 13:38 KJV)For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)I am likely one of the very few non-Trinitarians on this site, and I know just how nasty we can be treated. If you'd like to discus the divinity of Jesus further, please feel free to reach out by PM
Kindly,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,073
Hi Bill, without spending the six hours necessary to build the academic scaffolding, I offer an alternative translation that is just as valid as the simplistic ones found scattered around the globe in various bibles.
(John 1:1) The Pattern (λογος) was suffused throughout the cosmic protoplasm, and the Pattern has continued on for the Divine Good, and Sovereign still is the Pattern.
It's not mainstream, but it's also never been rejected by any Greek expert.
Kindly,
Rhema
On John 1:1
Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (theos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father. The previous phrase, “the Word was with God,” shows that the Logos is distinct in person from God the Father. From the NET2.1 Bible annotations.
For further study and research:
Jehovah’s Witnesses and John 1:1: New Evidence Advances the Discussion - Christian Research Institute
This article first appeared in CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL, volume 35, number 03 (2012). The full text of this article in PDF format can be obtained by clicking here. For further information or to subscribe to the CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL go to: http://www.equip.org/christian-research-journal/...
www.equip.org
In some ways the answer is easy: "son of man" is man; 'son of God" is God. Another way to look at it, how much cherry picking translations must you do to attempt to deny that Jesus is God incarnate?
"In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God’s presence, and what God was, the Word was. He was with God at the beginning, and through him all things came to be; without him no created thing came into being." (John 1:1-3 Revised English Bible, UK, 1989)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being" (Joh 1:1-3 NRSVue, USA, 2021)
"No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known." (Joh 1:18 NRSVue)
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,073
Is it any wonder that Trinitarians will produce a Trinitarian translation? (Along with complex convoluted rationalizations to support their already-having-been-believed doctrine?)
@Yollie
I had accepted this doctrine on the surface, until I did a deep dive into the Greek, and lo and behold, found it to be a religious fiction.
At this point, Dr. Daniel Wallace (although a Trinitarian) would be the best expert on the definite article (whether anarthrous or not.) Of the Trinitarian scholars I have read, none would state that the doctrine actually relies upon John 1:1.
Kindly,
Rhema
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11,752
Yes and Yes. Though there are some who do not believe this to be true or see it with a twist. Even within the belief of Trinitarians there are subdivisions, and then you have the non-Trinitarians who have subdivisions themselves like, Oneness, Mormonism, JW's, Christian Science, and the list goes on and on. Does this help you with coming to a complete understanding of God? Nope, but then that is what Eternity is for, but to know God and the Son He sent. (John 17:3)
John 1:14 (Greek Interlinear)
And the Word flesh became and tabernacled among us, and we beheld the glory of him, glory as of an only begotten from a father, full of grace and of truth.
Know there are threads a plenty here on Talk Jesus dedicated to the subject in one way or another.
For some reason it rarely goes away. Someone brings it up (like you),
and away we go! lolI would tell you to stick with Scripture. Pray about it and ask God the Father, or God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit! hehehe
Keep asking those questions, and in Christ Jesus, trust the Holy Spirit to open your understanding!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,620
Lol , it should have been rejected , LOL
The leaf has a pattern that was subjected to cosmic protoplasm, and the pattern has continued on for the good of the tree and the sovereign tree is still the pattern . This is not mainstream either but it also has never been rejected by Greek experts
Acts 3:26
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 3&version=KJV
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 3&version=KJV
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,719
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Jesus is GOD the SON.
God the FATHER is GOD the FATHER.
God the Holy Spirit is GOD the HOLY SPIRIT.
I think you're missing something, so take a look here at what the demons said to Jesus:
Mark 1:24
“Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.”Then, once again, Acts 3:19-26
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Quoting you:
"The Bible says GOD created Earth and everything on it in 6 days. Jesus instantly raised dead bodies and instantly turned two loaves into food for 5000 so it is reasonable to believe GOD and Jesus could created Earth and all in 6 days."
6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
"The Bible says GOD created Earth and everything on it in 6 days. Jesus instantly raised dead bodies and instantly turned two loaves into food for 5000 so it is reasonable to believe GOD and Jesus could created Earth and all in 6 days."
Isaiah 54:5-6
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
My understanding is limited, but I believe that Christ is the Son of God, and He was with God from the beginning, and is God.
Don't You?
"and the Word was God."
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Don't You?
"and the Word was God."
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11,752
Dear Posters,
Member Rxlx has been banned from replying to this thread. Calling those with different beliefs liars, such as Satan, is not acceptable simply because they hold different views. Plus looking at the Statement of Faith of Talk Jesus, clearly states that its of Trinitarian belief. If this was going to be troublesome for someone they shouldn't have joined, or at the very least been civil in discussing their discontent.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
Member Rxlx has been banned from replying to this thread. Calling those with different beliefs liars, such as Satan, is not acceptable simply because they hold different views. Plus looking at the Statement of Faith of Talk Jesus, clearly states that its of Trinitarian belief. If this was going to be troublesome for someone they shouldn't have joined, or at the very least been civil in discussing their discontent.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11,752
Dear Posters,
In addition to Member Rxlx being banned from posting on this thread, Member Rhema has also been banned. I apologize for not mentioning this earlier.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
In addition to Member Rxlx being banned from posting on this thread, Member Rhema has also been banned. I apologize for not mentioning this earlier.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,134
Why does this doctrine always get protected? It seems to me the only reason a doctrine would be protected is if it cannot be defended. One problem with protecting doctrine is that if it is wrong, people don't ever learn the truth. It simply perpetuates error. I'm sure God doesn't need any of us to protect His word. He's been doing just fine for centuries. If a doctrine is Biblical there is no need to protect it. On most Christian forums this doctrine gets put behind a wall so that no one can challenge it. I wonder why that is. Actually, I don't. I know why that is. That it gets protected speaks volumes.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11,752
Dear Butch5,
Actually, here lately I've been pretty lenient in allowing the pros/cons of the Trinity to get posted. However, what normally comes with the posting of this subject, is the lack of civility between all concerned in how they address those on the other side of the discussion. I have more of a problem with this lack of civility than the positions being held.
Sadly, too often even if I were to nail the SOF above their monitors, they will be of the belief, that it holds no water to them, since it's a lie and because of this "fact", I can treat any opposition to their own belief as the enemy of God and so to their own belief.
That being said Brother, they come they go. For the years I've been here, that is how it has been, for any number of subjects. Oh, by the way, as you have said that God does not need our help to protect His Word, you could also include, He doesn't need our help in defining who He is either.
Then again, on His Word, depending on who you are talking to will also determine what is considered the Word of God, and what is not. I'm sure you'd not be surprised by this either. I've looked at it as members need to be able to "agree to disagree" in a civil manner and be grown up enough in God's Word to be able to walk away and turn it over to God in prayer.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,134
Hi Nick,Dear Butch5,
Actually, here lately I've been pretty lenient in allowing the pros/cons of the Trinity to get posted. However, what normally comes with the posting of this subject, is the lack of civility between all concerned in how they address those on the other side of the discussion. I have more of a problem with this lack of civility than the positions being held.
Sadly, too often even if I were to nail the SOF above their monitors, they will be of the belief, that it holds no water to them, since it's a lie and because of this "fact", I can treat any opposition to their own belief as the enemy of God and so to their own belief.
That being said Brother, they come they go. For the years I've been here, that is how it has been, for any number of subjects. Oh, by the way, as you have said that God does not need our help to protect His Word, you could also include, He doesn't need our help in defining who He is either.
I've looked at it as members need to be able to "agree to disagree" in a civil manner and be grown up enough in God's Word to be able to walk away and turn it over to God in prayer.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
I know you have been lenient on this subject. I've noticed that in past discussions. My point is that almost everywhere I go this doctrine is protected behind a wall. Not just in forums but even in churches. Take my pastor for instance, I've shown time and time again, from Scripture where this doctrine is not Biblical. He skips right by all it, not engaging with any of the evidence. This is a teacher of God's word and he's not engaging with the Scriptures on this subject. That makes me wonder why. Is he embarrassed? Does he not want to change his view? Does he not want to be seen as being wrong? I don't know. I just know he doesn't engage the text. I have looked at this doctrine in depth over about a year and am more convinced than ever that this doctrine is not what the Bible teaches.
I agree with you about the way people treat one another. There is no excuse for being rude. As Christians we are called to edify one another not belittle one another. Sadly the old self comes out sometimes.
