TULIP from the 2021 NRSV Updated Edition

[Dylan569]

The 2021 NRSVue is an academic translation considered the most accurate English translation, and that does not translate according to theology. How does the "TULIP" come out in this modern translation? Since the Bible mentions upon the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses, I'll only give 3 passages or verses under each of the 5 points. I could of course give many more.

Total Depravity being Total Inability
"as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness; there is not even one.'” Rom 3:10-12 NRSVue

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else," Eph 2:1-3 NRSVue

"The heart is devious above all else; it is perverse— who can understand it?" Jer 17:9 NRSVue

Unconditional Election
"who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, and this grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," 2Ti 1:9 NRSVue

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Eph 1:3-6 NRSVue *He chose us "to be holy and blameless, not because we were somehow already so.

"and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered." Rev 13:8 NRSVue

Limited Atonement, being a Particular Redemption and Definite Atonement
"They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to break its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;" Rev 5:9 NRSVue

"It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; these follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been redeemed from humankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb" Rev 14:4 NRSVue

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep." Joh 10:14-15 NRSVue

Irresistible or Efficacious Grace
"Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away," Joh 6:37 NRSVue

"When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." Act 13:48 NRSVue

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence but much more now in my absence, work on your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13 NRSVue

Perseverance of the Saints
"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." Joh 10:27-28 NRSVue *If one can lose their eternal life, it was not eternal

"Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." Jud 1:24-25 NRSVue

"May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this." 1Th 5:23-24 NRSVue

For a 'baker's dozen', I'll add a couple of overall passages -

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." 1Pe 1:1-2 NRSVue

"For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him." 1Th 5:9-10 NRSVue

**There will be those of course, who will create contradictions in the scriptures. They do so giving their universal sounding verses, without explaining the verses I posted above.

 

[KingJ]

Why do you have to be a Calvinist?

Limited atonement is a sick belief. As bad as satanism.

Explain to me how YOU would feel if YOUR daughter was NOT among those SPECIALLY selected for Jesus to die for!!

Teaching that God specially select people for heaven, suggests He is a respecter of persons, showing favoritism to those He has cherry picked for heaven. This is pure evil. You are teaching that God is pure evil. You should be terrified of Him!!

Prophets who knew Him better then you or I had this to say of Him:

Acts 10:34 God is no respecter of persons.
1 Tim 2:4 God wills all to be saved.
Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways.
Job 34:12 It is UNTHNKABLE that God would do what is wicked or pervert justice.

If you teach that God, the creator of all, cherry picks some for heaven and some for fire, you are teaching all that He is pure evil. How are you not? Going 100% against every scripture above and many more I could quote. Just think of every scripture that says God IS Just!!!! And then try grasp that cherry picking is a perversion of justice.

You have a sick belief and if I were you, I would count my days. God is not impressed with you presenting Him to the unsaved as pure evil!

 

[Dylan569]

Why do you have to be a Calvinist?

Limited atonement is a sick belief. As bad as satanism.

Explain to me how YOU would feel if YOUR daughter was NOT among those SPECIALLY selected for Jesus to die for!!

Teaching that God specially select people for heaven, suggests He is a respecter of persons, showing favoritism to those He has cherry picked for heaven. This is pure evil. You are teaching that God is pure evil. You should be terrified of Him!!

Prophets who knew Him better then you or I had this to say of Him:

Acts 10:34 God is no respecter of persons.
1 Tim 2:4 God wills all to be saved.
Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways.
Job 34:12 It is UNTHNKABLE that God would do what is wicked or pervert justice.

If you teach that God, the creator of all, cherry picks some for heaven and some for fire, you are teaching all that He is pure evil. How are you not? Going 100% against every scripture above and many more I could quote. Just think of every scripture that says God IS Just!!!! And then try grasp that cherry picking is a perversion of justice.

You have a sick belief and if I were you, I would count my days. God is not impressed with you presenting Him to the unsaved as pure evil!

You have done exactly what I predicted in the last statement of my OP. You cannot explain away the clear statements of scripture that I quoted, so you merely offer what you think contradicts the scriptures I posted. I am not going to play that game with you. But, just for curiosity, I'll let John C. answer to the first reference you gave. I'll quote Acts 10:34 in context, because vs34 & 35 are the entire sentence; and then I'll lift from Calvin's commentary.

"Cornelius replied, 'Four days ago at this very hour, at three o’clock, I was praying in my house when suddenly a man in dazzling clothes stood before me. He said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms have been remembered before God. Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon, who is called Peter; he is staying in the home of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ Therefore I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. So now all of us are here in the presence of God to listen to all that the Lord has commanded you to say.' Then Peter began to speak to them: 'I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every people anyone who fears him and practices righteousness is acceptable to him.'" Act 10:30-35 NRSVAue

Taken from John Calvin's commentary on Acts 10:34
"In truth I find. Καταλαμβανεσθαι is to apprehend, or to gather by reasons, signs, and conjectures. Cornelius was a Gentile born, yet God heareth his prayers; he vouchsafeth to show him the light of the gospel; he appointed and sendeth an angel to him particularly; thereby doth Peter know that, without respect of persons, those do please God which live godly and innocently. For before, (being wholly possessed with this prejudice, that the Jews alone were beloved of God, as they alone were chosen out of all people,) [nations,] he did not think that the grace of God could come unto others. He was not, indeed, so gross that he thought that godliness and innocency of life were condemned because they were in a man that was a Gentile; but, seeing he did simply snatch at that, that all those were estranged from the kingdom of God, and were profane, which were uncircumcised, he entangleth himself unawares in that so filthy an error, that God did despise his pure worship and an holy life, where there was no circumcision; because uncircumcision made all virtues unsavory to the Jews. By which example, we are taught how greatly we ought to beware of prejudices, which make us oftentimes judge amiss.

Furthermore, we must note what the word person doth signify, because many are thereby deceived, whilst that they expound it generally, that one man is preferred before another. So Pelagius denied in times past that some are chosen and some are [re]proved of God; because God did not accept persons. But by this word we must understand the external state or appearance, as they call it; and whatsoever is about man himself, which doth either bring him in favor, or cause him to be hated; riches, nobility, multitude of servants, honor, do make a man to be in great favor; poverty, baseness of lineage, and such like things, make him to be despised. In this respect, the Lord doth oftentimes forbid the accepting of persons, because men cannot judge aright so often as external respects do lead them away from the matter. In this place, it is referred unto the nation; and the meaning is, that circumcision is no let, but that God may allow righteousness in a man that is a Gentile. But it shall seem by this means that God did respect persons for a time. For, when as he did choose the Jews to be his people, passing over the Gentiles, did he not respect persons? I answer, that the cause of this difference ought not to be sought in the persons of men, but it doth wholly depend upon the hidden counsel of God. For, in that he rather adopted Abraham, that with him he might make his covenant, than the Egyptians, he did not this being moved with any external respect, but (all) the whole cause remained in his wonderful counsel. Therefore, God was never tied to persons."

Acts 10 - Calvin's Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Acts 10, Calvin's Commentary on the Bible, John Calvin's Commentaries offer Christians profound insights by blending careful analysis of original texts with historical context.

www.studylight.org

When I quote from scripture, I keep the following statement in mind:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there until they have watered the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose and succeed in the thing for which I sent it." Isa 55:10-11 NRSVAue

I can't answer all the questions that can come up, but I do believe that when I post God's word, God the Holy Spirit will take it from there and use it for His purpose.

 

[Dylan569]

When Calvinism is discussed, the matter of "free-will" always comes up. The problem is, if you teach free-will, you are teaching a man merits his salvation, where another did not merit his salvation. Here are Martin Luther's comments, NOT John Calvin -

From The Bondage of the Will, by Dr. Martin Luther
And what will the advocates of "Free-will" say to that which follows, "being justified freely by His grace?" (Rom. iii. 24). What is the meaning of the word "freely?" What is the meaning of "by His grace?" How will merit, and endeavour, accord with freely-given righteousness? But, perhaps, they will here say—that they attribute to "Free-will" a very little indeed, and that which is by no means the 'merit of worthiness' (meritum condignum!) These, however, are mere empty words: for all that is sought for in the defence of "Free-will," is to make place for merit. This is manifest: for the Diatribe has, throughout, argued and expostulated thus,

—"If there be no freedom of will, how can there be place for merit? And if there be no place for merit, how can there be place for reward? To whom will the reward be assigned, if justification be without merit?

Paul here gives you an answer.—That there is no such thing as merit at all; but that all who are justified are justified "freely;" that this is ascribed to no one but to the grace of God.—And when this righteousness is given, the kingdom and life eternal are given with it! Where is your endeavouring now? Where is your devoted effort? Where are your works? Where are your merits of "Free-will?" Where is the profit of them all put together? You cannot here make, as a pretence, 'obscurity and ambiguity:' the facts and the works are most clear and most plain. But be it so, that they attribute to "Free-will" a very little indeed, yet they teach us that by that very little we can attain unto righteousness and grace. Nor do they solve that question, Why does God justify one and leave another? in any other way, than by asserting the freedom of the will, and saying, Because, the one endeavours and the other does not: and God regards the one for his endeavouring, and despises the other for his not endeavouring; lest, if he did otherwise, He should appear to be unjust.

And notwithstanding all their pretence, both by their tongue and pen, that they do not profess to attain unto grace by 'the merit of worthiness' (meritum condignum) nor call it the merit of worthiness, yet they only mock us with a term, and hold fast their tenet all the while. For what is the amount of their pretence that they do not call it 'the merit of worthiness,' if nevertheless they assign unto it all that belongs to the merit of worthiness?—saying, that he in the sight of God attains unto grace who endeavours, and he who does not endeavour, does not attain unto it? Is this not plainly making it to be the merit of worthiness? Is it not making God a respecter of works, of merits, and of persons to say that one man is devoid of grace from his own fault, because he did not endeavour after it, but that another, because he did endeavour after it, has attained unto grace, unto which he would not have attained, if he had not endeavoured after it? If this be not 'the merit of worthiness,' then I should like to be informed what it is that is called 'the merit of worthiness.'

In this way you may play a game of mockery upon all words; and say, it is not indeed the merit of worthiness, but is in effect the same as the 'merit of worthiness.'—The thorn is not a bad tree, but is in effect the same as a bad tree!—The fig is not a good tree, but is in effect the same as a good tree!—The Diatribe is not, indeed, impious, but says and does nothing but what is impious!

TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

Martin Luther's writing is not particularly easy, so you have to read carefully, and often reread it to grasp what he is saying.

 

[KingJ]

You have done exactly what I predicted

As have you. You ignore my question as you cannot give a sensible answer that does not incriminate God. You fail at grasping the meaning of dictionary words like ''just'' and ''righteous'' and you want me to discuss the meaning of scriptures.....

Let's just pray that you are one of the chosen. Though by how you represent God, it seems doubtful.

 

[KingJ]

When Calvinism is discussed, the matter of "free-will" always comes up. The problem is, if you teach free-will, you are teaching a man merits his salvation, where another did not merit his salvation. Here are Martin Luther's comments, NOT John Calvin -

From The Bondage of the Will, by Dr. Martin Luther
And what will the advocates of "Free-will" say to that which follows, "being justified freely by His grace?" (Rom. iii. 24). What is the meaning of the word "freely?" What is the meaning of "by His grace?" How will merit, and endeavour, accord with freely-given righteousness? But, perhaps, they will here say—that they attribute to "Free-will" a very little indeed, and that which is by no means the 'merit of worthiness' (meritum condignum!) These, however, are mere empty words: for all that is sought for in the defence of "Free-will," is to make place for merit. This is manifest: for the Diatribe has, throughout, argued and expostulated thus,

—"If there be no freedom of will, how can there be place for merit? And if there be no place for merit, how can there be place for reward? To whom will the reward be assigned, if justification be without merit?

Paul here gives you an answer.—That there is no such thing as merit at all; but that all who are justified are justified "freely;" that this is ascribed to no one but to the grace of God.—And when this righteousness is given, the kingdom and life eternal are given with it! Where is your endeavouring now? Where is your devoted effort? Where are your works? Where are your merits of "Free-will?" Where is the profit of them all put together? You cannot here make, as a pretence, 'obscurity and ambiguity:' the facts and the works are most clear and most plain. But be it so, that they attribute to "Free-will" a very little indeed, yet they teach us that by that very little we can attain unto righteousness and grace. Nor do they solve that question, Why does God justify one and leave another? in any other way, than by asserting the freedom of the will, and saying, Because, the one endeavours and the other does not: and God regards the one for his endeavouring, and despises the other for his not endeavouring; lest, if he did otherwise, He should appear to be unjust.

And notwithstanding all their pretence, both by their tongue and pen, that they do not profess to attain unto grace by 'the merit of worthiness' (meritum condignum) nor call it the merit of worthiness, yet they only mock us with a term, and hold fast their tenet all the while. For what is the amount of their pretence that they do not call it 'the merit of worthiness,' if nevertheless they assign unto it all that belongs to the merit of worthiness?—saying, that he in the sight of God attains unto grace who endeavours, and he who does not endeavour, does not attain unto it? Is this not plainly making it to be the merit of worthiness? Is it not making God a respecter of works, of merits, and of persons to say that one man is devoid of grace from his own fault, because he did not endeavour after it, but that another, because he did endeavour after it, has attained unto grace, unto which he would not have attained, if he had not endeavoured after it? If this be not 'the merit of worthiness,' then I should like to be informed what it is that is called 'the merit of worthiness.'

In this way you may play a game of mockery upon all words; and say, it is not indeed the merit of worthiness, but is in effect the same as the 'merit of worthiness.'—The thorn is not a bad tree, but is in effect the same as a bad tree!—The fig is not a good tree, but is in effect the same as a good tree!—The Diatribe is not, indeed, impious, but says and does nothing but what is impious!

TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

Martin Luther's writing is not particularly easy, so you have to read carefully, and often reread it to grasp what he is saying.

Do you really believe God can't give true free will?

5 pt Calvinism is based on the assumption that He can't. All scripture, all creation, points to free will.

Merit is valid and a matter separate from salvation! Consider:

1. True repentance Psalm 51:17
2. Living works James 1:27
3. Martyrdom Rev 2:10

All who do the above and pass God scrutiny of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11 receive salvation. Consider Hades in Luke 16, sinners in fire and sinners in paradise. Divided because those sinners in passed God's judgement in one or more of the three points above.

The commentary you posted on Acts 10:34 is dancing around the point being made. It reads like a slight of hand magic trick.

 

[Charlie24]

The 2021 NRSVue is an academic translation considered the most accurate English translation, and that does not translate according to theology. How does the "TULIP" come out in this modern translation? Since the Bible mentions upon the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses, I'll only give 3 passages or verses under each of the 5 points. I could of course give many more.

Total Depravity being Total Inability
"as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness; there is not even one.'” Rom 3:10-12 NRSVue

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else," Eph 2:1-3 NRSVue

"The heart is devious above all else; it is perverse— who can understand it?" Jer 17:9 NRSVue

Unconditional Election
"who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, and this grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," 2Ti 1:9 NRSVue

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Eph 1:3-6 NRSVue *He chose us "to be holy and blameless, not because we were somehow already so.

"and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered." Rev 13:8 NRSVue

Limited Atonement, being a Particular Redemption and Definite Atonement
"They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to break its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;" Rev 5:9 NRSVue

"It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; these follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been redeemed from humankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb" Rev 14:4 NRSVue

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep." Joh 10:14-15 NRSVue

Irresistible or Efficacious Grace
"Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away," Joh 6:37 NRSVue

"When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." Act 13:48 NRSVue

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence but much more now in my absence, work on your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13 NRSVue

Perseverance of the Saints
"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." Joh 10:27-28 NRSVue *If one can lose their eternal life, it was not eternal

"Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." Jud 1:24-25 NRSVue

"May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this." 1Th 5:23-24 NRSVue

For a 'baker's dozen', I'll add a couple of overall passages -

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." 1Pe 1:1-2 NRSVue

"For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him." 1Th 5:9-10 NRSVue

**There will be those of course, who will create contradictions in the scriptures. They do so giving their universal sounding verses, without explaining the verses I posted above.

Is it possible that Calvin got it wrong, that his reasoning is flawed? Let's go to the counterargument of Calvin's theory.

If man has no say in his salvation as Calvin says, no free will to choose God, then it's God who chose man for salvation and man has no choice but to be saved and follow Christ. Man didn't choose his salvation so he can't lose his salvation. The end result is Once Saved Always Saved. There's no other way it could be.

So Calvin's theory stands or falls on OSAS. Let's go to the Scripture to see if OSAS is true or false in the Words God gave to Ezekiel.

We know that the OT saints were saved the same way as we NT saints, we are declared righteous before God in justification by faith in Christ. They looked forward to the sacrifice of the coming Messiah through the animal sacrifice that represented Christ, and we look back to the Cross at the sacrifice of the Messiah.

Ezekiel 18:20

"The soul that sins , it shall die..."

This is a spiritual death that leads to eternal separation from God. It is the death of the soul of man vs the life of the soul through faith in Christ that leads to eternal life.

So what does God tell Ezekiel about the "Righteous Man" who turns from his righteousness? Remember this righteous man is justified by faith, but now has turned from that righteousness into unbelief.

Ezekiel 18:24

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

This righteous man has turned from his faith that declared him righteous and is now no longer righteous. All the good he has done is now no longer recognized, and if he continues in this unrighteous state, he will die in his sins and lose his soul.

So OSAS is not true, and Calvin's theory falls to the ground. Man can lose his salvation proving Calvin's theory has a very serious flaw.

 

[KingJ]

@Charlie24

Just my two cents. I don't believe you win an argument with Calvinists by debating OSAS.

OSAS is sound and true at a point in time when God properly vets a person's heart. Overwhelming amount of scripture for that and it is logical.

The problem with Calvinism is purely that it incriminates God as evil by teaching all the He IS INDEED a respecter of persons. Shows favouritism!!

Limited atonement = Pure evil!

-----------------------

I have yet to meet a Calvinist that gives a sound and logical explanation of how God is not evil for this.

Now, Calvin was sure to package the belief with a belief in annihilation. So, to their credit, it goes from a 10/10 evil to maybe only a 5-6/10 evil. If the consequence of God's favouritism was some suffering eternal punishment in fire, He would certainly sit atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live.

@Dylan569 How does a friendly chat with God over a cup of tea go? ''Dear Lord, you gave me a daughter and annihilated her. Why did I not get an option to take her place?''. Calvinism teaches and implies that God is heartless, the cross and all that exists is ''God going through the motions''.

It becomes a wicked belief the moment they share it with the unsaved. Any person with more than half a working brain knows that Calvinism is pushing favouritism, and that favouritism is a large evil! Just ask a black man in America or a Jew in WW2.

 

[Dylan569]

There is NO 'free will' of man that can guide, help or even give desire to seek God.

"What then? Are we any better off? No, not at all; for we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God. All have turned aside, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, there is not even one." Rom 3:9-12 NRSV

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2:1-9 NRSV

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Php 2:12-13 NRSV

Those who boast of man's free will never answer the direct statements of scripture, but as usual, they only pick out verses that they can 'read into' the idea that man since Adam's sin has free will.

There is a difference between true "free will" which man DID HAVE before Adam's sin; and that of the "free agency" of man where we make choices every day. The difference is, before Adam's sin man did not have a sin nature, 'original sin'. All men now can only express their will based on their nature which is only biased against the holiness of God. In free agency, where we choose things every day, we choose according to our nature, and how that sin nature is expressed by individuals. We have free agency because we make our own choices, they are not made and forced upon us.

If God did not choose a particular people, the elect, and Jesus died for those elect; if Jesus died for ever man who ever lived, what makes the difference between the one how is saved and the unsaved? The only answer that general atonement people can make is, not all men have faith or will believe. So, that amounts to the fact that Jesus did not truly provide the salvation for those saved people, man provided that for himself by his choice to believe, his faith. That can only mean faith has become a work, something that merits salvation.

So, yes, we make choices every day but those choices are made according to our own nature, which is sinful, original sin. ALL are spiritually dead before God gives birth from above. It is God who provides ALL needed for the salvation of his elect.

"His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature." 2Pe 1:3-4 NRSV

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

Just my two cents. I don't believe you win an argument with Calvinists by debating OSAS.

OSAS is sound and true at a point in time when God properly vets a person's heart. Overwhelming amount of scripture for that and it is logical.

The problem with Calvinism is purely that it incriminates God as evil by teaching all the He IS INDEED a respecter of persons. Shows favouritism!!

Limited atonement = Pure evil!

-----------------------

I have yet to meet a Calvinist that gives a sound and logical explanation of how God is not evil for this.

Now, Calvin was sure to package the belief with a belief in annihilation. So, to their credit, it goes from a 10/10 evil to maybe only a 5-6/10 evil. If the consequence of God's favouritism was some suffering eternal punishment in fire, He would certainly sit atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live.

@Dylan569 How does a friendly chat with God over a cup of tea go? ''Dear Lord, you gave me a daughter and annihilated her. Why did I not get an option to take her place?''. Calvinism teaches and implies that God is heartless, the cross and all that exists is ''God going through the motions''.

It becomes a wicked belief the moment they share it with the unsaved. Any person with more than half a working brain knows that Calvinism is pushing favouritism, and that favouritism is a large evil! Just ask a black man in America or a Jew in WW2.

I think the problem is that Calvin's theory involves so much misinterpretation that it will never be solved that way.

On the other hand in the point I make there are so many who are not Calvinists who believe osas is true.

The truth is that osas came from Calvin's theory of predestination. But that doesn't matter to some who are convinced osas is true.

 

[Dylan569]

I think the problem is that Calvin's theory involves so much misinterpretation that it will never be solved that way.

On the other hand in the point I make there are so many who are not Calvinists who believe osas is true.

The truth is that osas came from Calvin's theory of predestination. But that doesn't matter to some who are convinced osas is true.

The belief of the Calvinists and Reformed is NOT what is today referred to as OSAS; but it is referred to as "Perseverance of the Saints" which is quite different.

You write: "Calvin's theory involves so much misinterpretation", but I do not see the free willers using the standard, recognized principles of interpretation to point out the various "misinterpretations". I can give a reasonable interpretation of the free willer's various universalist misinterpretations. Producing contradictions in the word of God is NOT being a student of the Bible, it gives a perverted, lop-sided twisting of the truth of God's word. To use the KJV, YLT and Weymouth translations; let us hear the explanation of the following verse, if it does not teach "particular redemption", a redemption that accomplishes that for which it was intended, a "definite atonement".

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9 KJV)

"and they sing a new song, saying, 'Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation," (Rev 5:9 YLT)

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9 Weymouth)

 

[Charlie24]

The belief of the Calvinists and Reformed is NOT what is today referred to as OSAS; but it is referred to as "Perseverance of the Saints" which is quite different.

You write: "Calvin's theory involves so much misinterpretation", but I do not see the free willers using the standard, recognized principles of interpretation to point out the various "misinterpretations". I can give a reasonable interpretation of the free willer's various universalist misinterpretations. Producing contradictions in the word of God is NOT being a student of the Bible, it gives a perverted, lop-sided twisting of the truth of God's word. To use the KJV, YLT and Weymouth translations; let us hear the explanation of the following verse, if it does not teach "particular redemption", a redemption that accomplishes that for which it was intended, a "definite atonement".

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9 KJV)

"and they sing a new song, saying, 'Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation," (Rev 5:9 YLT)

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9 Weymouth)

There are several problems in the interpretation of predestination.

The main problem, as I see it, not speaking for anyone but myself, is found in Romans 8:29.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

The "predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son" is speaking of the plan to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Paul is not referring to the individual being predestined/chosen by God for salvation as Calvin suggests, but God in His foreknowledge of who would accept Christ in free will were predestined to the redemption plan of being conformed into the image of Christ.

 

[Dylan569]

Is it possible that Calvin got it wrong, that his reasoning is flawed? Let's go to the counterargument of Calvin's theory.

If man has no say in his salvation as Calvin says, no free will to choose God, then it's God who chose man for salvation and man has no choice but to be saved and follow Christ. Man didn't choose his salvation so he can't lose his salvation. The end result is Once Saved Always Saved. There's no other way it could be.

So Calvin's theory stands or falls on OSAS. Let's go to the Scripture to see if OSAS is true or false in the Words God gave to Ezekiel.

We know that the OT saints were saved the same way as we NT saints, we are declared righteous before God in justification by faith in Christ. They looked forward to the sacrifice of the coming Messiah through the animal sacrifice that represented Christ, and we look back to the Cross at the sacrifice of the Messiah.

Ezekiel 18:20

"The soul that sins , it shall die..."

This is a spiritual death that leads to eternal separation from God. It is the death of the soul of man vs the life of the soul through faith in Christ that leads to eternal life.

So what does God tell Ezekiel about the "Righteous Man" who turns from his righteousness? Remember this righteous man is justified by faith, but now has turned from that righteousness into unbelief.

Ezekiel 18:24

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

This righteous man has turned from his faith that declared him righteous and is now no longer righteous. All the good he has done is now no longer recognized, and if he continues in this unrighteous state, he will die in his sins and lose his soul.

So OSAS is not true, and Calvin's theory falls to the ground. Man can lose his salvation proving Calvin's theory has a very serious flaw.

Chapter 18 of Ezekiel at the beginning states:

"What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge'”? Eze 18:2 NRSVue

Then down through the verses are listed so many sins, then the statement is made:

"takes advance or accrued interest, shall he then live? He shall not. He has done all these abominable things; he shall surely be put to death; his blood shall be upon himself." Eze 18:13 NRSVue

THIS IS CLEARLY SPEAKING OF THE PUNISHMENTS OF EVIL DOERS IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL, LIFE IN THE HERE AND NOW, AT THE TIME OF EZEKIEL. THESE VERSES ARE NOT ABOUT ETERNAL SALVATION. ETERNAL DEATH IS NOT PUT INTO THE HANDS OF MEN TO EXECUTE!

The listing of sins continue and then the statement:

"withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no advance or accrued interest, observes my ordinances, and follows my statutes, he shall not die for his father’s iniquity; he shall surely live." Eze 18:17 NRSVue

A NT example comes to mind about sin and the effects that it has on men:

"For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Their females exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the males, giving up natural intercourse with females, were consumed with their passionate desires for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." Rom 1:26-27 NRSVue

Salvation under the Old Covenant was by faith just as it is now under the New Covenant.

 

[Charlie24]

Chapter 18 of Ezekiel at the beginning states:

"What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge'”? Eze 18:2 NRSVue

Then down through the verses are listed so many sins, then the statement is made:

"takes advance or accrued interest, shall he then live? He shall not. He has done all these abominable things; he shall surely be put to death; his blood shall be upon himself." Eze 18:13 NRSVue

THIS IS CLEARLY SPEAKING OF THE PUNISHMENTS OF EVIL DOERS IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL, LIFE IN THE HERE AND NOW, AT THE TIME OF EZEKIEL. THESE VERSES ARE NOT ABOUT ETERNAL SALVATION. ETERNAL DEATH IS NOT PUT INTO THE HANDS OF MEN TO EXECUTE!

The listing of sins continue and then the statement:

"withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no advance or accrued interest, observes my ordinances, and follows my statutes, he shall not die for his father’s iniquity; he shall surely live." Eze 18:17 NRSVue

A NT example comes to mind about sin and the effects that it has on men:

"For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Their females exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the males, giving up natural intercourse with females, were consumed with their passionate desires for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." Rom 1:26-27 NRSVue

Salvation under the Old Covenant was by faith just as it is now under the New Covenant.

There is my point to whole matter, the difference in interpretation.

Everything that I've pointed out in my post, you have revised through a different view of interpretation.

You have not addressed Ezekiel 18:24,

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

 

[Dylan569]

There are several problems in the interpretation of predestination.

The main problem, as I see it, not speaking for anyone but myself, is found in Romans 8:29.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

The "predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son" is speaking of the plan to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Paul is not referring to the individual being predestined/chosen by God for salvation as Calvin suggests, but God in His foreknowledge of who would accept Christ in free will were predestined to the redemption plan of being conformed into the image of Christ.

The Greek for "foreknow" here is the following, and it is used 5 times in the NT. I'll print out all 5 times and then readers decide what the meaning of "foreknow" is -

προγινώσκω proginosko (pro-ǰiy-nō'-skō) v. This is the verb

"They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I have belonged to the strictest sect of our religion and lived as a Pharisee." Act 26:5 NRSVue

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Rom 8:29-30 NRSVue

"God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?" Rom 11:2 NRSVue

"He was destined before the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake." 1Pe 1:20 NRSVue

"You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." 2Pe 3:17-18 NRSVue

The noun form of the word is used 2 times as follow:

πρόγνωσις prognosis (pro-gnō'-sis) n

"...this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law." Act 2:23 NRSVue

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." 1Pe 1:1-2 NRSVue

Going back to Rom. 8:29, it only says "those whom he foreknew"; it does not say anything about seeing the action of those whose are foreknown. For God to know someone is not to have mere knowledge of them or just foresee their actions, there is an element of love and connection with His plan, as in Acts 2:23 and Romans 11:2. To read into the verse merely foreseen acts of men, is to add to what the verse states.

Remember what Jesus said about knowing someone -

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you who behave lawlessly.’" Mat 7:21-23 NRSVue

 

[Charlie24]

The Greek for "foreknow" here is the following, and it is used 5 times in the NT. I'll print out all 5 times and then readers decide what the meaning of "foreknow" is -

προγινώσκω proginosko (pro-ǰiy-nō'-skō) v. This is the verb

"They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I have belonged to the strictest sect of our religion and lived as a Pharisee." Act 26:5 NRSVue

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Rom 8:29-30 NRSVue

"God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?" Rom 11:2 NRSVue

"He was destined before the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake." 1Pe 1:20 NRSVue

"You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." 2Pe 3:17-18 NRSVue

The noun form of the word is used 2 times as follow:

πρόγνωσις prognosis (pro-gnō'-sis) n

"...this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law." Act 2:23 NRSVue

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." 1Pe 1:1-2 NRSVue

Going back to Rom. 8:29, it only says "those whom he foreknew"; it does not say anything about seeing the action of those whose are foreknown. For God to know someone is not to have mere knowledge of them or just foresee their actions, there is an element of love and connection with His plan, as in Acts 2:23 and Romans 11:2. To read into the verse merely foreseen acts of men, is to add to what the verse states.

Remember what Jesus said about knowing someone -

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you who behave lawlessly.’" Mat 7:21-23 NRSVue

Ok, that's fine. I'll not argue.

 

[KingJ]

I think the problem is that Calvin's theory involves so much misinterpretation that it will never be solved that way.

True, but the head of the snake is chopped off when you help them grasp that almost insanely '''DUH''' fact .

I have tried to get a number of Calvinists to focus on that specific point, to no avail. Only one, in 15 years at least tried to answer it. All others do a 100% dodge. @Brightfame52 is a classic example in his limited atonement thread. And @Dylan569 looks to be going the same direction.

They do Calvinism the justice it deserves when they dodge.

'''Your belief is evil and presents God as evil because of A, B and C'' = Silence, rabbit trail, goal posts moved, run, insult.

On the other hand in the point I make there are so many who are not Calvinists who believe osas is true.

The truth is that osas came from Calvin's theory of predestination. But that doesn't matter to some who are convinced osas is true.

Calvin pioneering the term OSAS has been discussed here before. It is false.

 

[th1bill]

I am not a Calvinist, I am not even a Baptist, but I worship in a Baptist Assembly and they are my Church Family. I am OSAS because I understand the scriptures, and I know the ones without the presence of Ruah are not saved and will be answered with, "I never knew you," when they proclaim their deeds of service.

I do answer to the Spirit and with the guidance of Ruah I will never turn, making me Always Saved. OSAS is not understood, most often, because of the absence of complete devotion that results in the Other Teacher, Ruah's indwelling.

The reason we do service and whose guidance we do it under matters.

 

[Rhema]

"What then? Are we any better off? No, not at all; for we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God. All have turned aside, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, there is not even one." Rom 3:9-12 NRSV

as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous (G1342), not even one;​

(Romans 3:10 NRSV)

I guess Noah didn't get the memo.

These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous (G1342) man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.​

(Genesis 6:9 NRSV)

Then the LORD said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you alone are righteous (G1342) before me in this generation.​

(Genesis 7:1 NRSV)

Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

There is NO 'free will' of man that can guide, help or even give desire to seek God.

And you will seek Me and find [Me], when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV

I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me. Proverbs 8:17 NKJV

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8 NKJV

"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find [Him] if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 4:29 NKJV

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [you] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [you] double-minded. James 4:8 NKJV

Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face evermore! 1 Chronicles 16:11 NKJV