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Was Paul correct?

Kinjaffa

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
62
1 Corinthians 11:2-16

In verse 4 Paul states that it is wrong for a man to cover his head while praying/worshiping.

Yet in verse 5 Paul states that it is wrong if a woman does NOT cover her head while praying/worshiping. He even goes as far as to say that if a woman prays or worships without a head covering, all her hair should be shaved off!

In verse 13 Paul says that we should JUDGE women, whether they are right or wrong to pray without a head covering. I thought we were not supposed to judge others?

And finally in verse 14 Paul states that men who have long hair are a disgrace! I guess Sampson and many people who lived during the days of Jesus were a disgrace is Paul's eyes?

So does this mean that our churches should start shaving the heads of women who do not cover their heads while they pray/worship? Should we oust men with long hair for being "disgraceful" as Paul said?
 
Fine question.

Appears to be a tradition in Jewish culture. Not really sure about that.
The problem you would experience in trying to enforce that would be legalism.

I would aim to elevate Jesus Christ rather than attempt to enforce perhaps a traditional rule.

I wonder what others may think on this matter.
 
I personally do not care for legalism at all. But supposedly Paul's writings were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit. Did the Holy Spirit really indicate that all woman should wear a head covering while praying/worshiping? Did the Holy Spirit really indicate that we should shave off their heads if they don't? Did the Holy Spirit really indicate the men with long hair are a disgrace? Was Paul REALLY inspired buy the Holy Spirit when he wrote this stuff? A large part of me says "no". If that is the case, should this text be in the bible?
 
This is my attempt at an answer. I'm happy for somebody to do better, or to prove me wrong.

Probably to understand this text properly we would need to know a lot more about the culture in Corinth at the time. Actions can have very different meanings depending on time and place.

For example, there are places I have visited where it is perfectly acceptable and normal way for men to walk around holding hands. It's just a sign of friendship. When a pastor first took hold of my hand as we walked around town I felt a bit awkward and after a while adjusted - I decided to consider it a sign that I was accepted.

If we had been walking around in the UK or Jamaica, things would have been interpreted very differently...

Rather brilliantly, the English J B Philips translation renders Romans 16:16 "Greet one another with a holy kiss." as "Give each other a hearty handshake all round."

In a way, I think that is fair enough. The closest thing 1960s England had to a kiss of greeting was a firm handshake. A perfectly normal 1st century Palestinian kiss of greeting would be a shocking scandal in provincial Britain in 1962.

The problem Paul is addressing is that of people praying publicly in a dishonourable way. The cultural symbols change, so covering heads and long or short hair don't have much meaning for most people in the West. The specifics don't resonate with most of us, but the principle behind them should.
 
1 Corinthians 11:2-16
So does this mean that our churches should start shaving the heads of women who do not cover their heads while they pray/worship? Should we oust men with long hair for being "disgraceful" as Paul said?

Haha, no ousting or shaving heads. What would Emily Post say?

Besides, I think it was just the tradition, the respectul style during that time period in the Corinthian church. No worries.
 
Dear Kinjaffa.

Your reply consisted of:

"I personally do not care for legalism at all. But supposedly Paul's writings were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit. Did the Holy Spirit really indicate that all woman should wear a head covering while praying/worshiping? Did the Holy Spirit really indicate that we should shave off their heads if they don't? Did the Holy Spirit really indicate the men with long hair are a disgrace? Was Paul REALLY inspired buy the Holy Spirit when he wrote this stuff? A large part of me says "no". If that is the case, should this text be in the bible?"

Kinjaffa, this is the deep beauty of the Bible in all it's fulness. There is certainly no question that Paul was deeply inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Peter the apostle commented on Paul:

"and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you," (2 Peter 3:15, NASB)

Paul was an authority on Jesus Christ. Paul was hand picked to deliver the Gospel to the Gentiles. This is true.

Further, here is the beautiful aspect of the scripture. In the era that Paul ministered in, head coverings were indeed required for women.
This was a rule that applied in all the churches of that era. Paul was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. We have a porthole to look through, in this we can see that women were very much second class citizens.

Our era is a different era, this rule no longer applies. This is where we have to be mature Christians. A Gospel steeped in requirements of the past will be a short lived Gospel. We must adapt constantly to a changing World and let nothing hinder the delivery of the Gospel.

When you understand that what was important to Paul was the Gospel of jesus Christ. Not delivered with clever words, traditions, ceremony or rules. Only the Gospel is important in the end. For this we labour. Women are saved through the Gospel, not by what they wear.
 
1 Corinthians 11:2-16

In verse 4 Paul states that it is wrong for a man to cover his head while praying/worshiping.

Yet in verse 5 Paul states that it is wrong if a woman does NOT cover her head while praying/worshiping. He even goes as far as to say that if a woman prays or worships without a head covering, all her hair should be shaved off!

In verse 13 Paul says that we should JUDGE women, whether they are right or wrong to pray without a head covering. I thought we were not supposed to judge others?

And finally in verse 14 Paul states that men who have long hair are a disgrace! I guess Sampson and many people who lived during the days of Jesus were a disgrace is Paul's eyes?

So does this mean that our churches should start shaving the heads of women who do not cover their heads while they pray/worship? Should we oust men with long hair for being "disgraceful" as Paul said?

Why did you leave out verse 16----" But if any man seem contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God "----Doesn't that seem to answer your question itself???

Happy

Happy
 
I personally do not care for legalism at all. But supposedly Paul's writings were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit. Did the Holy Spirit really indicate that all woman should wear a head covering while praying/worshiping? Did the Holy Spirit really indicate that we should shave off their heads if they don't? Did the Holy Spirit really indicate the men with long hair are a disgrace? Was Paul REALLY inspired buy the Holy Spirit when he wrote this stuff? A large part of me says "no". If that is the case, should this text be in the bible?
There are many Christians who have come to view Paul as a charlatan who deceived the early Disciples. Indeed, a fair few of his teachings contradict each other and the words of Jesus directly. Remember that he was an observant pharisee before his apparent "conversion," and he went right on advocating certain elements of pharisaic observance in his epistles.

Also keep in mind that both Jesus and Paul acknowledged the importance of those commandments, and Jesus even holds up the Pharisees as an example, a sort of benchmark of righteousness to surpass (Matt. 5:20).

So it'd be hard to say that there's much of an argument against Pharisaic legalism to be had. Both Jesus and Paul seem pretty gung-ho about observing Jewish custom, except when it got in the way of compassion (Luke 7:36-50) (Luke 10:25-37).
 
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Benchmark of righteousness

What??? I assume you are referring to

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:20)


I certainly don't read that as the Pharisees being held up as a "benchmark" of righteousness that others should strive to attain to. More like a "point of no return" for those headed the wrong way! Maybe these other verses will help.

How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
(Mat 16:11-12)


Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(Mat 23:1-39)


For your comments on Paul: 2/3 or more of the new testament is written by Paul. And who knows how much of the gentile population was converted by him and the churches he regulated and established. Is God a fool to run his church through so many of His writings and deeds? If Paul's conversion isn't a complete transformation, what hope have the rest of us? If Paul is legalistic the entire books of Galatians and Hebrews, let alone volumes of verses from many other books, would never have been written.
 
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1 Corinthians 11:2-16

In verse 4 Paul states that it is wrong for a man to cover his head while praying/worshiping.

Yet in verse 5 Paul states that it is wrong if a woman does NOT cover her head while praying/worshiping. He even goes as far as to say that if a woman prays or worships without a head covering, all her hair should be shaved off!

In verse 13 Paul says that we should JUDGE women, whether they are right or wrong to pray without a head covering. I thought we were not supposed to judge others?

And finally in verse 14 Paul states that men who have long hair are a disgrace! I guess Sampson and many people who lived during the days of Jesus were a disgrace is Paul's eyes?

So does this mean that our churches should start shaving the heads of women who do not cover their heads while they pray/worship? Should we oust men with long hair for being "disgraceful" as Paul said?

From what I understand, a woman is "covered" by her husband (a man), and a man is "covered" by Christ, who is in God. So the covering is supposed to be more symbolic rather than an actual covering.

A woman's hair is her covering-not an actual hat. If this were a commandment, Jesus Himself would have told us how important it was. But remember how Mary wiped Jesus' feet with her hair in John 12:3?

<Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.>

If Mary had a head covering on, she would have had to take it off to wipe Jesus' feet....and if it was a sin to do that, Jesus would have told her.

I've always wondered about Paul's teaching though, because Jews (even Messianic ones) always wear a yarmulke, which would be in direct violation of that verse. I have a friend who does not believe in Jesus at all, yet he practices a Jewish religion...but he does not wear a yarmulke, because he says they are "untraditional". I never went into detail with him about it.

But anyway, I think it's supposed to be a symbolic thing about the head coverings.
 
Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, dishonors his head, that is,he dishonors Christ, outwardly. His own physical head is typical of Christ, and Christ is to be manifested, not covered. but, if a woman prays or prophesies without a head covering, she dishonors her head, that is, she outwardly dishonors the man. How does she do this? By putting the man in the place of Christ! For her head is typical of the man, who should not be manifested, but covered. It is not he himself who should be uncovered, but his head. The woman should not only herself be covered, but her head covered also because it is typical of the man.For if the woman's head is not covered, it is the same as if she were shaven. For it is in the very nature of things that God has given her long hair, to indicate the fact of her subjection to the headship of man; and if she refuses to use a covering to acknowledge this on her own part, then why not also reject God's testimony to her subjection by shaving her head? But of course it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven. Then let her be covered.Verse 7 indicates that the important matter is that God's glory should be manifested, not the glory of the man. Man is said here to be "God's image and glory," that is, that he represents God who is in fact revealed in the Person of Christ. "But the woman is the glory of the man;" and this glory is not that to be displayed:1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious(strife, quarrel)In the Sept., Eze_3:7, "stubborn, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
 
What??? I assume you are referring to

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:20)


I certainly don't read that as the Pharisees being held up as a "benchmark" of righteousness that others should strive to attain to. More like a "point of no return" for those headed the wrong way! Maybe these other verses will help.
<snip>

For your comments on Paul: 2/3 or more of the new testament is written by Paul. And who knows how much of the gentile population was converted by him and the churches he regulated and established. Is God a fool to run his church through so many of His writings and deeds? If Paul's conversion isn't a complete transformation, what hope have the rest of us? If Paul is legalistic the entire books of Galatians and Hebrews, let alone volumes of verses from many other books, would never have been written.

I'm going to repeat one of the verses you yourself cited to reassert that Jesus was advocating living according to the precepts of the pharisees.

(Matt 23:1-3)

Remember that Jesus stood as part of a tradition and likely was himself influenced by their teachings (which were quite popular among the lower social classes of Judea at the time). Indeed, he couldn't have been in a state of total war with the Pharisees, as they attempt to save him in one Gospel account (Luke 13:31).
 
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He is rebuking them as hypocrites

My verse states my argument loud and clear. Christ is rebuking the Pharisees as hypocrites. The analagies of cleansing the outside of the cup and the "whited sepulchers" are not hard to decipher. "Do as I say not as I do" is a term teenagers mock of their guardians to condemn parental figures for hypocrisy. Christ in your quote is using this same idea; basically saying that they "talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
(Mar 7:1-23)

But by now we are way off subject. If you still disagree, then make a new thread on the subject.
 
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Let me ask you this question who was he talking to? who was it written to? why was it written? when was it written? what are the key words and how do you compare it from then to know with out taking it out of context.
 
1CO 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

1CO 11:11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

Context is so important!

1 Corinthians 11:13 gives you the answer.

A womans head covering is her husband.

There are teachings about shaving ones head bald and taking vows or doing so for the purpose of mourning. Otherwise it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head (or as Paul says here an uncovered head).

It's too compliacted for me to just explain briefly. Here is a link to an article that explains it in detail.

Does the Bible Say it's Wrong for Women to Cut their Hair?

I don't agree 100% with the author of the article but he goes in depth into the common arguments of Christian women and short hair or uncovered heads when praying and gives a good response to these. It might be helpful to you.
 
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