Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[S.T.Ranger]

Seeing that the Lord made Regeneration (the New Birth) mandatory for entrance to the Kingdom of God, it is something that all Christians should understand thoroughly. One of the best ways, in my view, to teach on this matter is to ask this question, "Were men born again before Pentecost?" In the years I have been debating this I would put the responses at 95% say yes, the rest say no. So before you answer this question give it a little thought, because if you have not given it thought before (and many haven't) it might be you are in for a surprise. And if you don't mind please mention whether this is a question you have given thought to before.

God bless.

 

[Quantrill]

Seeing that the Lord made Regeneration (the New Birth) mandatory for entrance to the Kingdom of God, it is something that all Christians should understand thoroughly. One of the best ways, in my view, to teach on this matter is to ask this question, "Were men born again before Pentecost?" In the years I have been debating this I would put the responses at 95% say yes, the rest say no. So before you answer this question give it a little thought, because if you have not given it thought before (and many haven't) it might be you are in for a surprise. And if you don't mind please mention whether this is a question you have given thought to before.

God bless.

I have given this some thought before. And at present I would say no. No one was born-again prior to Pentecost.

Quantrill

 

[Dave M]

well before (Pentecost ) when people died they did not go to heaven they went to Abrahmas boosom, so I doubt they were born again.

never thought about the particular question before

 

[Dovegiven]

Seeing that the Lord made Regeneration (the New Birth) mandatory for entrance to the Kingdom of God, it is something that all Christians should understand thoroughly. One of the best ways, in my view, to teach on this matter is to ask this question, "Were men born again before Pentecost?" In the years I have been debating this I would put the responses at 95% say yes, the rest say no. So before you answer this question give it a little thought, because if you have not given it thought before (and many haven't) it might be you are in for a surprise. And if you don't mind please mention whether this is a question you have given thought to before.

God bless.

I've answered it before, maybe at Hermeneutics.stackexchange.com. My vote is No. The main reason is Jesus'
"corn" grain seed wasn't planted yet to grow up to a full ear of many sons of God. My text basis is primarily
John 12:22-36 (KJV)
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Eat of His flesh, drink of His blood, live thereby, or die without Him.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

I have given this some thought before. And at present I would say no. No one was born-again prior to Pentecost.

Quantrill

I would be in agreement with you. Once we get a few more replies we can begin looking at the reason why men were not born again before Pentecost, and one issue I would bring up for consideration is the question of whether men had eternal life prior to Pentecost. This is an interesting question as well, and relevant to the discussion. Most take the view that Adam had eternal life, lost it, and now we are trying to get it back. But Adam's provision for everlasting life was the Tree of Life, which is the reason he was separated from God's direct physical presence in the Garden:


Genesis 3:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


My own view is no man had eternal life until men began to be placed in Christ, thereby receiving the life He came to give, Eternal Life. Which was never before received by men, not even Adam.

God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

I have given this some thought before. And at present I would say no. No one was born-again prior to Pentecost.

Quantrill

I would be in agreement with that, and I hope that as we discuss this we can see why Regeneration isn't seen in Old Testament Economies. Something to consider is that a basic teaching of Christ is that He came to give eternal life, and to make what was dead...alive:


John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Note that the "passing from death to life" is accomplished in physically living people, the implication being that men are "dead" until they turn to Christ. The Lord also makes this point here:


John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


One of the fathers I would mention that is included among the dead is...Moses. The Lord isn't telling them Moses was physically dead, they were well aware of that. What He is saying is that Moses had not received the Living Bread which came down from Heaven (The Son of God) that men might live...forever. Or in other words, have eternal life.

And we will see Him mention how men receive that Bread, which He calls His "flesh," which is a reference to His death. Having eternal life and Regeneration have the same source and the same beginning in time. But first, let's see Him nail this point (that men do not have life unless they believe on Him and His Sacrifice) down:


52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


We know how He gave His flesh "to eat," they did not (because the Mystery of the Gospel was not yet revealed to men). Those who do not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood...have no life in them. That is...everlasting/eternal life. In view is our partaking in His death which is accomplished by our believing in HIm and His Work.

Most of us are familiar with John 3, one of the most highly debated passages in Scripture. We are told that Regeneration is mandatory to enter the Kingdom of God:


John 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


The Lord's response to Nicodemus' statement seems random, but nothing the Lord did was random. Nicodemus responds with a physical and temporal context applied to "Ye must be born from above (which I view as the better rendering)." The Lord points out His error and will ask why a Teacher of Israel misses the mark. Something to consider here is that the word translated into English as "again," anothen, is like many English words which have differing meanings. It can mean "from above," as well as "again." So we might excuse Nicodemus on that basis, but the Lord does not, but calls him on his error, and this based on the premise that he should have understood a spiritual/eternal context. Think of it like this: two biblically sound are standing together and there is a man twenty feet away from them preaching that men will become gods, and one of the men turns to the other and exclaims "That man is lying!" The other man responds with, "No he isn't, he is standing up!" The second man, being sound in his Doctrine and knowing full well men do not become gods has erred and he misunderstood the context of the first man's statement. This is what happens in Nicodemus' case. He should have, because of his familiarity with the Hebrew Scriptures, immediately thought of Ezekiel 36:24-27 or Ezekiel 37 in which we see God restoring Israel...to life.

The Lord's statement above states the same thing in vv.3 and 5, both being references to being "born of God," something that is immediately taught about by John in the very first Chapter of this Gospel (John 1:11-13). BEing born from above is to be born of God, and being born of water (the washing of the water of the Word) and Spirit is also a reference to being born of God. And if you consult John 1:11-13 you will see that it is when Christ came that men began to believe on Him (see also Galatians 3:21-27) and it is by this belief that men began to become the sons of God.

We will jump through part of the Lord's response to Nicodemus and return to the issue being discussed, which is seeing the correlation between having eternal life, being born again (Regenerated), and why this came about when Christ came and not before:


John 3:9-16 King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

First, we note one of the most important questions in all of Scripture: Nicodemus asks "How can a man be born from above and born of water and of the Spirit?


10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


The Lord is right to question Nicodemus' confusion and ignorance. The Old Testament taught that God would restore Israel and the concept of resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and being born again (Ezekiel 36:24-27) should have been familiar to him. But the Lord also implies that Nicodemus is among those who have rejected the Lord's teachings which were relevant to Israel as a Nation in a temporal context. His question is basically, "Why ask me about the difficult doctrine that is spiritual when you refuse to hear basic teachings that relate to your relationship to God in the temporal? If that is too much for you to embrace will the realities of Who I am going to be of any use to you?"


And next we see the answer to the question:


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


In other words, the answer to the question, "How can a man be born again," is that Christ must die on the Cross. We can understand that because we stand on this side of the Cross and have had the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to us, whereas Nicodemus could not properly place this in that context. Now we see the result of the Lord being lifted up:


15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Again, this is one of the most known statements in Scripture yet I think that the significance is passed over. God gave His Son that men might have...everlasting life. Moses was designated as dead. He did not have that life that Christ came to bestow. And lest someone think I do not view Moses as having been "saved" by grace through faith, let me say clearly...he was. But, Moses did not receive that life until Christ died. It is popular to believe that that Atonement and Reconciliation and Justification in an eternal sense were applied to Moses prior to His death...they weren't (see Hebrews 9:12-15). He died offering up sacrifice for the remission of sins and atonement that was temporal and had to be continually offered. He died not receiving the promises GoOd began making in Genesis 3:15 (see also Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40). He was "saved" in the sense that his eternal destiny was secured by the grace of God through faith. But just as we are saved and have not received our glorified bodies, and are no less saved than w will be then, even so, Abraham was saved but had not yet received eternal life, Atonement, nor the Reconciliation that was accomplished when God took up residence in human flesh and died in the stead of the sinner (2 Corinthians 5:17-19).

Regeneration occurs when men are baptized into Christ, and another very basic truth oft overlooked is that Jew and Gentile are both made one in Christ (Galatians 3:27-29), and I will close this with that thought in mind:


Ephesians 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

well before (Pentecost ) when people died they did not go to heaven they went to Abrahmas boosom, so I doubt they were born again.

never thought about the particular question before

This is a great and important point: men did not go to be with God in Heaven but had only a temporal entrance to His presence in parable:


Hebrews 9:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


The Writer goes on to say...


Hebrews 9:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


In v.9 we have parabolē (translated was a figure) which is the same word translated "parable," and in v.24 we have antitypos , which speaks of a "pre-figuring" of something, almost in the concept of a model of a building created before the building is actually built. Both indicate that what was available to men in regards to entrance into His presence was not the reality, but a picture of the reality. The "way into the holiest of all" was not yet made manifest. In v.24 we see the reality, the Holy Place where God's true presence resides. That is where our Great High Priest has gone. The Levitical High Priest entered into the "holiest of all" for Israel, and Christ has entered into the true Holiest of All for us, Jew and Gentile who are in Christ. One more statement I view as relevant to true entrance to God's presence (which is accomplished by Christ):


Hebrews 10:15-20 King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


This is one of my favorite passages because it is what I view to be the most inarguable statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture. God promised that He would forgive sins on an eternal basis, and in Chapter Ten we see numerous statements that this has been accomplished forever for those who have been sanctified by the blood (death) of Jesus Christ. Moreover, we see that He has created entrance to God's true presence (as opposed to the figure/parable found in the Law) through the "flesh" which was pre-figured in the veil that separated man from God in the Tabernacle (as well as the Temple, though the Writer does not mention the Temple (and this because of the distinct audience being Israel as a people)). Think about that, God took upon flesh to bring men into His presence and this was pictured in the earthly Tabernacle which was just a...parable. It was not the reality.

This would make a great topic for a separate thread. I don't think I have ever actually seen one on this specific topic. Thank you for your reply.

God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

I've answered it before, maybe at Hermeneutics.stackexchange.com. My vote is No. The main reason is Jesus'
"corn" grain seed wasn't planted yet to grow up to a full ear of many sons of God. My text basis is primarily
John 12:22-36 (KJV)
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Eat of His flesh, drink of His blood, live thereby, or die without Him.

Awesome response, Dovegiven, awesome!

God bless.

 

[Quantrill]

I would be in agreement with you. Once we get a few more replies we can begin looking at the reason why men were not born again before Pentecost, and one issue I would bring up for consideration is the question of whether men had eternal life prior to Pentecost. This is an interesting question as well, and relevant to the discussion. Most take the view that Adam had eternal life, lost it, and now we are trying to get it back. But Adam's provision for everlasting life was the Tree of Life, which is the reason he was separated from God's direct physical presence in the Garden:


Genesis 3:22-24 King James Version (KJV)

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


My own view is no man had eternal life until men began to be placed in Christ, thereby receiving the life He came to give, Eternal Life. Which was never before received by men, not even Adam.

God bless.

At this point I am of the opinion that men, believers, did have eternal life even before Pentecost. But they were not born-again until Pentecost. There are many questions surrounding this however.

If Adam did not have eternal life even before the fall, what would have killed him? Death is the product of sin.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

At this point I am of the opinion that men, believers, did have eternal life even before Pentecost. But they were not born-again until Pentecost. There are many questions surrounding this however.

If Adam did not have eternal life even before the fall, what would have killed him? Death is the product of sin.

Quantrill

Agreed! Adam died because of the curse of sin. We know Enoch alone was before the flood taken up by God, thus prevented from experiencing fleshly death too. It must be assumed he was awarded eternal life, but from other scripture we anticipate his having to return to suffer flesh death along with Witness [HASH=2007]#2,[/HASH] apparently Elijah. There is no scriptural testimony of others in his generation being so spared, but all suffered fleshly death without mention of eternal life.

Sometime back fallen angels existed who also knew God, but didn't die. They were chained up until their future temporary release from the bottomless pit. That's the only exception I know of.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

At this point I am of the opinion that men, believers, did have eternal life even before Pentecost. But they were not born-again until Pentecost. There are many questions surrounding this however.

If Adam did not have eternal life even before the fall, what would have killed him? Death is the product of sin.

Quantrill

In the other thread, hopefully, we can come to a conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament as we look at those issues surrounding New Birth. I hold to the view that eternal life began with Christ primarily because that is what Christ states He came to bestow, and as we look at the New Testament we begin to see this made clear. For example:


John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The "life" He speaks of is associated with the True/Living Bread (Himself) coming down from HEaven. We wouldn't impose this into the timeframe of the Wilderness and would have to exclude men receiving this bread because manna was the provision given. Manna sustained physical life whereas the True/Living Bread sustains Eternal Life, hence the many statements about men not dying. And this contrasted with the fathers being dead, or in other words...they did not receive this life at that time.

We see it in numerous familiar texts:


John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 3:15-16 King James Version (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 6:40

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day


Now two things we have to clarify in our hearts in order to understand this is 1) no man was believing on Christ as the Risen Savior (which is how men are saved in this Age and become sons of God) and 2) no man had received the Promised Spirit. And it is through believing the Gospel of Christ (which was a mystery, truth not revealed to men in past Ages (Ephesians 3:2-5; Colossians 1:25-27; Romans 16:26-27) that men receive the Promised Spirit:


Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


John 4:14

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


So having eternal life is a result of being placed in Christ. John 14:15-23 teaches that the indwelling of the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17) is a future event, meaning the disciples were not in Him and He was not in them until Pentecost. That is the moment of salvation according to Peter and the Jews He recounts the conversion of Cornelius to:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So there are numerous issues we have to discuss in order to bring the conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament.


As to what would have killed Adam, remember that not all death is the result of sin. We can't make the fact that death is the wage of sin into a concept that only sin can kill. Adam could have died in an accident, for example. But that doesn't change the fact that his provision for not dying-which equates to everlasting life in the physical sense-was the Tree of Life. That is why God thrust him out, that he would no longer have access and thus "live forever:"


Genesis 3:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Just want to mention that I inadvertently hit "yes" in the poll. Oops! Disregard please, lol. If a Moderator can change that please do.

 

[Quantrill]

In the other thread, hopefully, we can come to a conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament as we look at those issues surrounding New Birth. I hold to the view that eternal life began with Christ primarily because that is what Christ states He came to bestow, and as we look at the New Testament we begin to see this made clear. For example:


John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The "life" He speaks of is associated with the True/Living Bread (Himself) coming down from HEaven. We wouldn't impose this into the timeframe of the Wilderness and would have to exclude men receiving this bread because manna was the provision given. Manna sustained physical life whereas the True/Living Bread sustains Eternal Life, hence the many statements about men not dying. And this contrasted with the fathers being dead, or in other words...they did not receive this life at that time.

We see it in numerous familiar texts:


John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 3:15-16 King James Version (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 6:40

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day


Now two things we have to clarify in our hearts in order to understand this is 1) no man was believing on Christ as the Risen Savior (which is how men are saved in this Age and become sons of God) and 2) no man had received the Promised Spirit. And it is through believing the Gospel of Christ (which was a mystery, truth not revealed to men in past Ages (Ephesians 3:2-5; Colossians 1:25-27; Romans 16:26-27) that men receive the Promised Spirit:


Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


John 4:14

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


So having eternal life is a result of being placed in Christ. John 14:15-23 teaches that the indwelling of the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17) is a future event, meaning the disciples were not in Him and He was not in them until Pentecost. That is the moment of salvation according to Peter and the Jews He recounts the conversion of Cornelius to:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So there are numerous issues we have to discuss in order to bring the conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament.


As to what would have killed Adam, remember that not all death is the result of sin. We can't make the fact that death is the wage of sin into a concept that only sin can kill. Adam could have died in an accident, for example. But that doesn't change the fact that his provision for not dying-which equates to everlasting life in the physical sense-was the Tree of Life. That is why God thrust him out, that he would no longer have access and thus "live forever:"


Genesis 3:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


God bless.

Yes, I understand what you hold to. And no, we will not come to an agreement as I can see already you are one of those that put up little substance but much smoke. Who says all death is not the result of sin? You?

The Tree of Life is also found in the New Earth. (Rev. 22:1-3) Makes you wonder doesn't it, why it's there?....since everyone at that time is saved? The Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden doesn't prove that Adam and Eve did not have eternal life before the fall. What now?

Quantrill

 

[Dave M]

we can come to a conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament

well David is going to rule with Jesus in the 1,000 so I am sure he has eternal life, and is from the OT.

everyone has eternal life its just a matter of where are you going to spend it

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

I see this thread is about being born again or as one has pointed out, being born from above and we are also seeing talk of eternal life.

Are they the same thing?

May i suggest that the Resurrection is perhaps being overlooked somewhat? If so, is there such a thing as the resurrection life?

There is lots more that might be added but for now, can we consider this a little, if for no other reason but for my sake... but please, everyone, all to the glory of God in Christ Jesus His Son, meaning, let us consider Him in all our writing in and on this forum and do all we can to exalt His name.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Quantrill]

Greetings all,

I see this thread is about being born again or as one has pointed out, being born from above and we are also seeing talk of eternal life.

Are they the same thing?

May i suggest that the Resurrection is perhaps being overlooked somewhat? If so, is there such a thing as the resurrection life?

There is lots more that might be added but for now, can we consider this a little, if for no other reason but for my sake... but please, everyone, all to the glory of God in Christ Jesus His Son, meaning, let us consider Him in all our writing in and on this forum and do all we can to exalt His name.


Bless you ....><>

Actually the thread is about some sort of 'temporal justification'. As a result, 'eternal life' has been brought into question. Many aspects of salvation are going to come into play with this. Resurrection has not been overlooked, it just hasn't come into play yet. Is there resurrection life? Of course. But the point was made that there was no eternal life for those in the Old Testament until Pentecost. To which I disagree.

Quantrill

 

[Br. Bear]

Actually the thread is about some sort of 'temporal justification'. As a result, 'eternal life' has been brought into question. Many aspects of salvation are going to come into play with this. Resurrection has not been overlooked, it just hasn't come into play yet. Is there resurrection life? Of course. But the point was made that there was no eternal life for those in the Old Testament until Pentecost. To which I disagree.

Quantrill

Greetings,

thank you Quantrill. Perhaps some thought on the Resurrection Life may help decipher it all?

I am reminded of a line to a song....

love is eternal, it never ends


Bless you ....><>

 

[Dovegiven]

Actually the thread is about some sort of 'temporal justification'. As a result, 'eternal life' has been brought into question. Many aspects of salvation are going to come into play with this. Resurrection has not been overlooked, it just hasn't come into play yet. Is there resurrection life? Of course. But the point was made that there was no eternal life for those in the Old Testament until Pentecost. To which I disagree.

Quantrill

Yet to which Jesus addressed Lazarus, a renewed beginning.

 

[Quantrill]

Greetings,

thank you Quantrill. Perhaps some thought on the Resurrection Life may help decipher it all?

I am reminded of a line to a song....

love is eternal, it never ends


Bless you ....><>

Years ago, after I had been a believer for just a year or so, this question came to me. The penalty for sin is death. Jesus Christ died and has paid for my sins. I am saved because I place faith in Jesus Christ accepting Him as my Lord and Saviour. What then is the purpose of the resurrection? The resurrection is not required to pay for my sins. Only the death is.

Quantrill

 

[Br. Bear]

Years ago, after I had been a believer for just a year or so, this question came to me. The penalty for sin is death. Jesus Christ died and has paid for my sins. I am saved because I place faith in Jesus Christ accepting Him as my Lord and Saviour. What then is the purpose of the resurrection? The resurrection is not required to pay for my sins. Only the death is.

Quantrill

Greetings Quantrill,

but forgiveness of sins is empty without hope


Bless you ....><>