Who Truly Killed Jesus?

[Dylan569]

“Fellow Israelites, listen to what I have to say: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as you yourselves know— this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law." Act 2:22-23 NRSVue

"Pilate said to them, 'Take him yourselves and judge him according to your law.' The Jews replied, 'We are not permitted to put anyone to death.'” Joh 18:31 NRSVue

"So when Pilate saw that he could do nothing but rather that a riot was beginning, he took some water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of this man’s blood; see to it yourselves.' Then the people as a whole answered, 'His blood be on us and on our children!'” Mat 27:24-25 NRSVue

Peter, speaking to his "Fellow Israelites" said:
"But you rejected the holy and righteous one and asked to have a murderer given to you, and you killed the author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses." Act 3:14-15 NRSVue

"Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the courtyard of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and they conspired to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. But they said, 'Not during the festival, or there may be a riot among the people.'” Mat 26:3-5 NRSVue

"Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus killed." Mat 27:20 NRSVue

"The chief priests and the scribes were looking for a way to put Jesus to death, for they were afraid of the people." Luk 22:2 NRSVue

"Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover, and it was about noon. He said to the Jews, 'Here is your King!' They cried out, 'Away with him! Away with him! Crucify him!' Pilate asked them, 'Shall I crucify your King?' The chief priests answered, 'We have no king but Caesar.'” Joh 19:14-15 NRSVue

THE PRECEDING IS DIFFERENT FROM THE QUESTION, "WHY WAS JESUS KILLED?"

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." 1Pe 2:24 NRSVue

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" 1Co 15:3 NRSVue

"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit," 1Pe 3:18 NRSVue

"You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of humans." 1Co 7:23 NRSVue

 

[Solemn Man]

does the Scripture not basically describe that God himself killed Jesus - this is the very reason that God came to earth, to offer his Anointing Spirit as an offering to take away the sins of the world.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

it was God who chose to be born or conceive his own Spiritual seed n the form of flesh at the very exact and precise time in history when he would be killed and God who chose to act in such a way to conduct himself in such a manner that was illegal and against the law of Rome.

Rome had already made it criminal to pronounce yourself as a savior or redeemer of the Hebrew people, the Hebrew people were being forced to change their culture and to submit to the Roman culture. Jesus was completely and entirely a man who rebelled and he came with the power of God and proved whom he was - and was tried in Roman Court and punished,

 

[bowwow]

does the Scripture not basically describe that God himself killed Jesus - this is the very reason that God came to earth, to offer his Anointing Spirit as an offering to take away the sins of the world.

"God came to earth?"

Well, Jesus did represent God and yes - it was God the Father who sent Jesus to the cross.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Consider this...

We know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin. IF Jesus WAS God, that means he's a fraud because he, as God, could not have been tempted to sin anyway making him a complete fraud, the cross a complete hoax, and God a liar!

I've become a member of the DONES AND NONES. Done with the religion of Christianity or any organized religion. Done with trinitarian Christians. I'll work out my own salvation void of Christianity.

 

[Solemn Man]

hey there.

thank you so very much " bowwow " for taking time to reply, i greatly appreciated reading what you have written. I do understand the thrushtrainous depths to which you have extended your desire to understand the Trinitarian Faith System. Regardless of whether one is a Trinitarian believer or whatever they may be, it is undeniable that Trinitarians have worked extensively and dedicated much time and effort into explaining their faith in God.

regarding ✣ Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

✒ please consider the Hebrew Manuscript reading, as the original message is intended

God
Num 23:19


לא NOT - אישׁ A MAN - אל UNTO - ויכזב LIE / LIES / LYING -

ובן A SON - אדם OF MAN - ויתנחם THAT IS REPENTANT -

ההוא WHOM - אמר SAYS - ולא NO - יעשׂה BUT WILL DO IT -

ודבר AND SPEAKS - ולא AND NOT - יקימנה׃ WILL RAISE IT UP -


NOT A MAN UNTO LIE / LIES / LYING

A SON OF MAN THAT IS REPENTANT

WHOM SAYS NO BUT WILL DO IT

AND SPEAKS BUT NOT WILL RAISE IT UP

for me personally, i do not see evidence that God is attempting to make a statement to the declaration of declaring that " God is not a man ↩ " nor to say that " God cannot become a man ↩

regardless of wither or not God has expressed himself in human form - could it be that the passage here is not really attempting to discuss the manifestation of God in the form of a man, but rather simply explaining that God is not someone who lies and goes back on his plans and breaks his own word. ?

we see that God appears to Abraham in the form or manifestation of a man
a man who sits and speaks, who eats food and walks and talks with Abraham here on earth.
We see in the Garden of Eden that God spoke with Adam and Eve and even God shows himself as the manifestation of a _ "" human being " / a man _ and shows his back side to Moses facing away and not showing his face, but in human form.
Also, It is God who speaks to John the Revelator, showing him visions and explaining to John that he is God who is expressing and manifesting himself in human form. ✣ I hope we can discuss this further and I did not intend to attribute or design anything I had written to the Trinity doctrine ✣ but just the manuscript original context.

thank you.​

 

[Dylan569]

hey there.

thank you so very much " bowwow " for taking time to reply, i greatly appreciated reading what you have written. I do understand the thrushtrainous depths to which you have extended your desire to understand the Trinitarian Faith System. Regardless of whether one is a Trinitarian believer or whatever they may be, it is undeniable that Trinitarians have worked extensively and dedicated much time and effort into explaining their faith in God.

regarding ✣ Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

✒ please consider the Hebrew Manuscript reading, as the original message is intended

God
Num 23:19


לא NOT - אישׁ A MAN - אל UNTO - ויכזב LIE / LIES / LYING -

ובן A SON - אדם OF MAN - ויתנחם THAT IS REPENTANT -

ההוא WHOM - אמר SAYS - ולא NO - יעשׂה BUT WILL DO IT -

ודבר AND SPEAKS - ולא AND NOT - יקימנה׃ WILL RAISE IT UP -


NOT A MAN UNTO LIE / LIES / LYING

A SON OF MAN THAT IS REPENTANT

WHOM SAYS NO BUT WILL DO IT

AND SPEAKS BUT NOT WILL RAISE IT UP

for me personally, i do not see evidence that God is attempting to make a statement to the declaration of declaring that " God is not a man ↩ " nor to say that " God cannot become a man ↩

regardless of wither or not God has expressed himself in human form - could it be that the passage here is not really attempting to discuss the manifestation of God in the form of a man, but rather simply explaining that God is not someone who lies and goes back on his plans and breaks his own word. ?

we see that God appears to Abraham in the form or manifestation of a man
a man who sits and speaks, who eats food and walks and talks with Abraham here on earth.
We see in the Garden of Eden that God spoke with Adam and Eve and even God shows himself as the manifestation of a _ "" human being " / a man _ and shows his back side to Moses facing away and not showing his face, but in human form.
Also, It is God who speaks to John the Revelator, showing him visions and explaining to John that he is God who is expressing and manifesting himself in human form. ✣ I hope we can discuss this further and I did not intend to attribute or design anything I had written to the Trinity doctrine ✣ but just the manuscript original context.

thank you.​

Thanks for pointing out the error of making the verse say God cannot be the God-Man: Son of God, Son of Man. For those whose mind is more inclined to the philosophical side of theology, the Louis Berkhof Systematic Theology covers the question of how the immutable God can become man in the incarnation. "THE EFFECTS OF THE UNION OF THE TWO NATURES IN ONE PERSON" is found on page 355 as read in the online pdf file. https://downloads.biblicaltraining.org/Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof.pdf

A small section from the chapter:
"It is well to stress the fact that the incarnation was a personal act. It is better to say that the person of the Son of God became incarnate than to say that the divine nature assumed human flesh. If Reformed theologians do occasionally speak of the divine nature as incarnate, they speak of it “not immediately but mediately,” to use the language of scholastic theology; they consider this nature not absolutely and in itself, but in the person of the Son of God. The result of the incarnation was that the divine Saviour could be ignorant and weak, could be tempted, and could suffer and die, not in His divine nature, but derivatively, by virtue of His possession of a human nature."

Several online sites have theology textbooks on theology from various denominations, Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Anglical, etc. I'll be happy to give the links to any of those if anyone wishes. Often you must use the "Find on Page" feature of a browser to find the exact topic you wish to study.

 

[Garee]

I would offer..

To kill (slain) is to strike or be struck .By his wounds or stripes we are healed loosed from the pains of death

Acts 2:23 -24 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Not dead never to rise.

Something I have been looking at. It would seem the three days and nights promised demonstration of the lamb slain for our sin is divided into three demonstrations having different purpose for each

The first demonstration needed to fulfil the two prophecies that speak to the same conclusion .

I would call it the bruised heal prophecy

Genesis 3: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The work of two to represented as one

53:1-10 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.;He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.;And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The garden of Gethemenane (oil press) Oil the Holy Spirit .the flaming sword possibly a way back .

The first of the three demonstrations. Three denotes the end of a mater.

Mark 14:32;42 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.
And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.;And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him. And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
;Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.

In order to fulfil the prohecy of the bruised heal "two working as one", the father puts the apostles to sleep three times .Then they awoke for the second demonstration the cross the hill Skull .

A sign to wonder after for the whole world in a hope of drawing all the nations to the written word . The bloody demonstration the illusion the work of salvation according to the sufferings was done by a Satan inspired He will never share His glory of the two working as one

.Both demonstrations working as one . Then the last demonstration the Tomb

Many have experienced a time when no other could help but look up .The belly of the whale

 

[amateurscholar]

“Fellow Israelites, listen to what I have to say: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as you yourselves know— this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law." Act 2:22-23 NRSVue

"Pilate said to them, 'Take him yourselves and judge him according to your law.' The Jews replied, 'We are not permitted to put anyone to death.'” Joh 18:31 NRSVue

"So when Pilate saw that he could do nothing but rather that a riot was beginning, he took some water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of this man’s blood; see to it yourselves.' Then the people as a whole answered, 'His blood be on us and on our children!'” Mat 27:24-25 NRSVue

Peter, speaking to his "Fellow Israelites" said:
"But you rejected the holy and righteous one and asked to have a murderer given to you, and you killed the author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses." Act 3:14-15 NRSVue

"Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the courtyard of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and they conspired to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. But they said, 'Not during the festival, or there may be a riot among the people.'” Mat 26:3-5 NRSVue

"Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus killed." Mat 27:20 NRSVue

"The chief priests and the scribes were looking for a way to put Jesus to death, for they were afraid of the people." Luk 22:2 NRSVue

"Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover, and it was about noon. He said to the Jews, 'Here is your King!' They cried out, 'Away with him! Away with him! Crucify him!' Pilate asked them, 'Shall I crucify your King?' The chief priests answered, 'We have no king but Caesar.'” Joh 19:14-15 NRSVue

THE PRECEDING IS DIFFERENT FROM THE QUESTION, "WHY WAS JESUS KILLED?"

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." 1Pe 2:24 NRSVue

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" 1Co 15:3 NRSVue

"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit," 1Pe 3:18 NRSVue

"You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of humans." 1Co 7:23 NRSVue

Looking at these passages it's clear that multiple groups were involved in Jesus's death. The historical record shows a complex web of responsibility:

The Jewish religious leadership (chief priests and elders) initiated the process, driven by what appears to be fear of losing their authority and social position. They strategically manipulated both the crowds and the Roman political system.

Pilate, representing Roman authority, tried to avoid responsibility but ultimately gave the official order, showing classic displacement of responsibility (that hand-washing scene is textbook psychological deflection).

The crowd itself played a role, demonstrating how group psychology can lead ordinary people to participate in extraordinary acts of violence when influenced by authority figures.

The Roman soldiers physically carried out the execution.

Historically crucifixion was exclusively a Roman form of execution - the Jewish authorities couldn't have done it without Roman involvement, which is why they needed Pilate's approval.

What's fascinating is how the early Christian writers balanced describing these historical events while also emphasizing their theological meaning - that Jesus's death was ultimately part of a divine plan for salvation, regardless of who was physically responsible.

Just my take on it, based on the texts provided.

 

[Garee]

Looking at these passages it's clear that multiple groups were involved in Jesus's death. The historical record shows a complex web of responsibility:

The Jewish religious leadership (chief priests and elders) initiated the process, driven by what appears to be fear of losing their authority and social position. They strategically manipulated both the crowds and the Roman political system.

Pilate, representing Roman authority, tried to avoid responsibility but ultimately gave the official order, showing classic displacement of responsibility (that hand-washing scene is textbook psychological deflection).

The crowd itself played a role, demonstrating how group psychology can lead ordinary people to participate in extraordinary acts of violence when influenced by authority figures.

The Roman soldiers physically carried out the execution.

Historically crucifixion was exclusively a Roman form of execution - the Jewish authorities couldn't have done it without Roman involvement, which is why they needed Pilate's approval.

What's fascinating is how the early Christian writers balanced describing these historical events while also emphasizing their theological meaning - that Jesus's death was ultimately part of a divine plan for salvation, regardless of who was physically responsible.

Just my take on it, based on the texts provided.

Thanks you make it easy to understand.

One thing I have been looking at which could effect the doctrine .Many seem to avoid the first of the three demonstrations where the sufferings began in the garden the bloodless demonstration ..then moved to the hill Skull the bloody ,

It would seem they must work together as one demonstration .The bloody the more popular .