will we stay, or will we go?

[johnny botwrigh]

I have always been taught, that Jesus returns for his bride, the church , God removes his people, As tribulation unfolds on the Earth.
True believers returning with Jesus, when Jesus returns in Great power and Glory
with the host of heaven within.
those included we see clothed in white, who have come out of the great tribulation, also those killed for their testomony, and have over come.
this is an intresting challange to that which i have been taught.
JTF i would be intrested in your understanding and insight on this subject.
like wise anyone eles, who feels, they can bring about the correct conclusion.
as also with the TPAB.
There is no secret rapture in the scriptures, its a terrible hoax and false doctrine that has been made up to confuse people as to the end time events, to turn from clear teaching of the second coming so Satan can put himself here or there after a so called 7 years and use his abilities of signs and wonders to fool people at the end. According to those teaching the secret rapture theory, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate stages. The first will be a secret rapture of the Church at the beginning of a 7 year tribulation period followed by a return of Christ to the Earth. They believe that during this seven year period the Antichrist is going to come into power and God will select and seal 144,000 literal Jews who will take the Gospel to the whole world converting immeasurable souls to Christ.
Problem is the scripture nowhere speaks of these two separate comings and the word “rapture” is also an invention of false theologians and occurs nowhere in the Bible, and is false interpretation of Bible Prophecy.The order of events according to Scripture is very clear; there is Christ’s second coming, the resurrection, the catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air which all take place at the same time and at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 “…and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Why would Jesus promise to be with the Church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would then have no meaning.
This false doctrine on the secret rapture is contradictory to the words of Jesus in Matthew 13 when He said the wheat and tares would grow together until the “end of the world” and then would be separated. According to this dual coming secret rapture theory, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, John 6:40 “…and I will raise him up at the last day.” No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Paul declares the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the “same time” the dead in Christ are raised. He says, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
You have to understand what will happen when Christ comes, and its purpose, the 'secret rapture' has no purpose but confusion to let Satan apear as a false christ and mislead. Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:40,“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”Some try to twist it and take it out of context to push the secret rapture when Christ gave a complete picture as shown below...
Matthew 24:27 - Jesus said,“For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even to the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” This verse is clearly describing Christ’s visible and ultra-glorious Second Coming. Very few disagree here.
Matthew 24:30, 31 - Jesus continued,“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.” Once again, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is clearly described. This coming will be literal, visible, loud and glorious. All the world will see and hear it.
Matthew 24:36 -“But of that day [the day of the Second Coming] and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My father only.” Once again, the context is clearly the Second Coming.
Matthew 24:37-39 -“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Jesus clearly compares His Second Coming with Noah’s flood. This flood came suddenly upon the lost “and took them all away.” In other words, they were lost - with no second chances. Christ said,“...so shall the coming of the Son of man be.”
Matthew 24:40 -“THEN [capitols added] shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.” This verse clearly is describing how some will be taken up and the wicked left at the salvation of the saints at the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the world?
Another text which is used:
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luke 17:34-36 (KJV)
Upon these few texts the rapture is built and so strongly believed in that other Scripture are forced with a meaning not found to make it look like this teaching is very biblical. But as we shall see, this rapture theory is founded upon nothing but these texts taken out of context.
The context for these foundational verses is the stories of Noah and Lot. In both stories it is clear that the righteous are saved and the wicked are lost. No one is taken to heaven and other left on earth to face a seven year tribulation period. There is no second chance in the Scriptures in regards to the second coming of Jesus. When Jesus comes He brings His reward with Him to distribute to every man according to their works. It is the final reward. No second chance.
Note the statements on Noah in Luke 17.“until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.” Luke 17:27 (KJV) and of Lot,“But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:29 (KJV) The same happens in Noah’s story as given in Matthew 24,“until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matt 24:38-39 (KJV)
Connected with this clear statement that when Jesus comes the righteous are saved and the wicked destroyed are the verses that supposedly support the rapture. Those “rapture” verses support no such event as commonly understood in the Christian Church. They simply state only that there are two classes of folk when Jesus come. One class will be preserved and saved, while the other class will be lost. No second chances. Thus, we are admonished to "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Matt 24:42 (KJV)
This teaching has done more to confuse and twist the truth of the last day events than perhaps any other unbiblical teaching. But it is a false doctrine and error and it needs to be shown for what it is, and Christians turn from it and back to what scripture teaches, not man.

 

[johnny botwrigh]

the fight is on

if we take a boxer coming into a world title fight, he trains and prepares.
he wants to go the distance at least.
not go out in the first round.
or certainly go out fighting.

the church could be in for the biggest fight of its life? spiritualy- praticaly?
take a stand, authority is given to the anti christ to war agaisnt the saints and overcome them.
though many are saying, and many believe, we are not even going in the ring.
what happens when the bell rings. ?
as for searching what is written, i have, and wonder why there is so little activity, planing, preparation, taking place. ?

give Noah his due, being prewarned he prepared an Ark,for his family, must have been quiet a talking point, among the locals who for them life was just business as normal just like today, but then the end came.

The ruling elite, have been very busy, building and completing their under ground bases, maybe they know some thing we do not?

The church is said to be the light of the world, have the wisdom and the knowledge.
And should by example like Noah, imploring the people, the church being joined to a much higher intelligence.
Jesus the ARK of the new covenant.
We should be the watch men, given instruction, warning, knowledge, making things known.
taking the lead,
presenting the world with the right message.what ever that message may be, concerning coming events .
If the church was really forfilling its role, and we as ambassadors.
the message would be loud and clear, and people would be in the know.
Is there some thing we should know? Abrahams question.
many are asking the question,
its what the correct answer is?
that is not clear. as far as planing and preparation is concerned and what the Lord is saying to his people the world at this time.
The Lord did make known to myself, The storm is coming, the sword is out.

the experts of the world, with so much data avalable to them, taking every thing into consideration, tell us we are indeed heading into the perfect storm. named by them an E.T

we may be in the rap ids at presents, its hearing the roar, of the approaching waterfall, that is making people sit up, wake up.

The coming storm, is at the door!

johnny

 

[stephen]

if we take a boxer coming into a world title fight, he trains and prepares.
he wants to go the distance at least.
not go out in the first round.
or certainly go out fighting.

the church could be in for the biggest fight of its life? spiritualy- praticaly?
take a stand, authority is given to the anti christ to war agaisnt the saints and overcome them.
though many are saying, and many believe, we are not even going in the ring.
what happens when the bell rings. ?
as for searching what is written, i have, and wonder why there is so little activity, planing, preparation, taking place. ?

give Noah his due, being prewarned he prepared an Ark,for his family, must have been quiet a talking point, among the locals who for them life was just business as normal just like today, but then the end came.

The ruling elite, have been very busy, building and completing their under ground bases, maybe they know some thing we do not?

The church is said to be the light of the world, have the wisdom and the knowledge.
And should by example like Noah, imploring the people, the church being joined to a much higher intelligence.
Jesus the ARK of the new covenant.
We should be the watch men, given instruction, warning, knowledge, making things known.
taking the lead,
presenting the world with the right message.what ever that message may be, concerning coming events .
If the church was really forfilling its role, and we as ambassadors.
the message would be loud and clear, and people would be in the know.
Is there some thing we should know? Abrahams question.
many are asking the question,
its what the correct answer is?
that is not clear. as far as planing and preparation is concerned and what the Lord is saying to his people the world at this time.
The Lord did make known to myself, The storm is coming, the sword is out.

the experts of the world, with so much data avalable to them, taking every thing into consideration, tell us we are indeed heading into the perfect storm. named by them an E.T

we may be in the rap ids at presents, its hearing the roar, of the approaching waterfall, that is making people sit up, wake up.

The coming storm, is at the door!

johnny

This second post in this your thread is so much easier to read.....and appreciate.

Stay Blessed

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Persecution and rapture

When there is persecution the church always grows.
Did you know that?

So I say,
"BRING IT ON!"
The eminent return of Jesus is near.
Just look out your window and see the signs of the times.

 

[Boanerges]

Just my take: Since I am a post trib-believer my beliefs are the following:

Those who die now go to Christ and will return with Him.

Those who remain at His coming will be caught up with Him in the air but remain here as He establishes His 1,000 reign and then finally the new earth becomes heaven's very throne.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[johnny botwrigh]

will we stay or will we go?

From the scriptures you have put forward, we see those who will not take the mark of the beast, being slain.
so can we presume this is speaking of christains, of course there will be others.
or is this talking of the jews Israel, ?

when it is said satan, the anti christ is given authority to make war with the saints and over come them again the church, or Israel?

those clothed in white, are they those slain during the great tribulation, which is still taken place, and more will follow, again the church, Christains or Israel, Jews.

we see when Jesus returns the elect are gathered, those that remain, are caught up into the air, to meet with the Lord.

so some say a seven year tribulation, that is shortened, to three and a half years,

so some christains make it through this three and a half year tribulation, though we see, those who have not taken the mark of the beast , hunted down and killed, beheaded.

this being the case, unable to buy and sell, should not the church, christains be preparing, while they have the light, oppurtunity,
as darkness will come when no man can work.

as those in the ruling elite pyramid are preparing and completing their under ground bases, with growing faciitys,
should not christians be doing some thing simular, the early church went under ground, like wise in China , Russia, the eastern block, in more recent times.

making provision to sustain themselves. farming, food stores, shelters, safe houses, sancturys ect.

johnny

 

[johnny botwrigh]

can the rapture happen today?

is this the church, raptured into heaven?



After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

who are they clothed in white who have been slain.
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just going to squeeze the orange some more to see if we can get a little more juice out of it.



There are two schools of thought, there are Christians who believe they will be spared the tribulation, and the rapture will take place before the tribulation.

This being the case, could the rapture, happen today?

if so as many that can be saved need to be saved in time and not left behind!


For those who feel the church will go through the tribulation, how should the church, Christians be, preparing for this time.?
Practically as well as spiritually.?
If some will remain until the Lord Jesus returns.

Joseph was shown a fat cow and a lean cow, and had seven years to prepare, for seven years of famine.
Should the church be taking the same approach, how long is there to prepare, ?
How long will the tribulation last, ?
How will Christains sustain themselves through the tribulation, if for example they cannot buy or sell?

could the answer to how we should prepare for the time of the tribulation is in the Joseph story as you say: When Joseph spoke to Pharoah he was basically evangelizing to the Egyptians, telling them about the God whom his family worshipped, and in a sense he converted Egypt. Likewise, Jonah converted Assyria so that when Israel was exiled, they could be kept safe because there would be some in Assyria who knew about Jonah's message and would treat Israel well.
Similarly, it may be that the preaching/ witness of Daniel to the Persians led to their being treated well by that nation.
I wonder if this can help answer the question. safe havens.? whatever this would entail.

The church Christians need to be at least one step ahead , not two behind. ?
we are not going to be shown any favour from the anti christ.

johnny

 

[Boanerges]

Again, I am not super dogmatic as I have probibly seen a couple to many of end times theories go by the way side. i believe we are all going to have some doctrinal surprises.

From the scriptures you have put forward, we see those who will not take the mark of the beast, being slain. so can we presume this is speaking of christains, of course there will be others. or is this talking of the jews Israel, ?

The scriptures I presented demonstrate Christians meeting Christ in the air only at the sounding of the last trump, the triumphant return of Christ and the subsequent judgment of all.

when it is said satan, the anti christ is given authority to make war with the saints and over come them again the church, or Israel?

Born again believers and/or born again Jews- there will be no difference s all who come to Christ will be known by His Name.

 

[Boanerges]

is this the church, raptured into heaven? After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" who are they clothed in white who have been slain. just going to squeeze the orange some more to see if we can get a little more juice out of it. There are two schools of thought, there are Christians who believe they will be spared the tribulation, and the rapture will take place before the tribulation. This being the case, could the rapture, happen today? if so as many that can be saved need to be saved in time and not left behind! For those who feel the church will go through the tribulation, how should the church, Christians be, preparing for this time.? Practically as well as spiritually.? If some will remain until the Lord Jesus returns.

I believe (personally)that those are simply those who have walked faithfully before us. As far as preparations, if any are needed the Holy Spirit will lead you directly. If one focuses on daily growth in his relationship with the Father, maturing in understanding of the Word by the revelation of the Spirit and personal evangelism then that one will neither be caught by surprise nor lacking provision for that which his Master would have him do.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture Theory!!!

If we were not so close to the time of the end, this rapture talk would get very old. I mean how many years do we read the same arguments over and over in the forums?

First, get over what other Christians care about concerning being raptured or not. It's not what everyone thinks. Rapture or no Rapture we are to change not. It makes no difference.

Next, Jesus said there will be many false Christ and prophets. Once again, these appear before, and during the Tribulation. Look at Jones town, look and David Koresh. Someone claiming to be the Christ, is just someone say I am anointed of God to do great things. It is more deceptive than just someone trying to pretend to be Jesus. Stay led by the Spirit of God, stay in the Word, and you will very easy avoid this. It is written we are not unaware of Satan's devices. Never.

Your missing something.

The Language of the Church is missing in REV during the Tribulation. No Holy Spirit filled folks, no Gospel of Christ, just the testimony of Jesus preached. Why? The true Chruch is not there.

BTW Rapture is in the Bible. You need to do some more study. We just hung onto it because it sounds more cool than Caught up.

harpazō was translated by the Latin Vulgate as rapio, rapere, rapui, raptus it is part of the verb. We get the word Harpoon from this Greek Word.

Events: (You know scripture, I'll save the space)

Matthew 24:

Jesus starts off describing the false prophets, the I am Christ's, and those Earthquakes. This is occurring now.

Note: Divers Earthquakes does not denote a increase of Earthquakes, but a target of city areas. This was a story on CNN where science is baffled that all the current Earthquakes are hitting cities and populated areas. No wonder, look at the Greek.

topos Divers (Places)
Thayer Definition:
1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
1a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district

Next Jesus talks about the Gospel being preached all over, then the end comes.

Now think about it................................

The end comes AFTER the gospel is preached............... not while the tribulation is taking place, but read REV and the Testimony and Gospel of the good news is preached. Not the Gospel of Christ, or the Gospel of the anointed one and his anointing.

Make a note that only a Angel is given to preach the Gospel during the Tribulation.......................... (Rev 14:6)

Rev 12:17...............and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

See Rev 19:10
It is the Testimony of Jesus Christ that is given during the tribulation, not what the Church today is assigned to preach.

I hope your at least thinking about this................

Note: The Term Testimony of Jesus is never used in any letter to the Church.

Testimony in the Greek is just a record of, a report or witness. Not the personal relationship we preach and teach others today. It will be to late for that at this time.

So, the gospel of the Kingdom of God is only given until the end begins. That kingdom has to be removed first. I'll explain in a bit.


cont...... Matthew 24

Jesus describes the Tribulation, He tells us it will be a show stopper, and nothing like it and nothing ever like it again. That's good.

More false prophets, and false Christ, but this time with signs and wonders. The Anointed Chruch would never buy into this, we recognize Satan right away. Jesus tells us not be led away by any of these, or into a secret chamber. At this time, people will be looking for any refuge, and may buy into to those who claim safety and help.

Jesus describes his coming, Lighting to the East and to the West. This denotes that the whole world will be lit up by his coming. It will also be dark, so that will help.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This event occurs right after the last (Seventh) Angelic trumpet is sounded. The Seventh trumpet is the End of the Tribulation. Right after that, the sun goes dark, the moon, and the stars shall be rolled up, everything shall be shaken!! Jesus comes with his Angels to collect the harvest.

Note: Jesus had to deal with two groups on earth. The Jews, and the future church.

Back to the start again................................. before the tribulation.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

The fig tree is Israel, and all the tree's are the Arab nations that surround Israel. We must be led by the Holy Spirit, and watch.

Even now things are getting in the place they should be.


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

This event, we don't know the day or hour, the other event occurs right after the Tribulation as Jesus said immediately after. We also have the sun, moon and stars go away, then Jesus comes and all the heavens shake. This event gives no warning, These are two separate events!!!!

This event tells us to watch the Arab interaction with Israel, watch for the temple (Luke) everyone goes about their business, and Jesus comes. Jesus is not only talking about Noah and the fact that Noah was saved, His point was that many were not prepared and unaware of the impeding disaster. Noah entered the Ark into safety. Then disaster.

Jesus is speaking to the Church here. He continues on.

one is taken, one is left............... so on........

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now, the servant said "MY LORD DELAYETH HIS COMING"

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

We pinpointed one Rapture (Taking of saints) This occurs right after the Tribulation.

Now we have another one..............

Nobody is going to say the Lord delay's his coming after the Tribulation, Peter said that all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation, so no tribulation there.

This other Rapture occurs without notice or warning.

Jesus addresses in this Rapture those who serve him, the other He address Israel and tells them to flee, and hope that you don't have little ones. TWO different events, addressed to two different groups.

Why would those that serve Jesus say he delay's or is not coming? Because of the Wars and rumors of Wars. We go though some things we thought would have triggered the Rapture, yet they pass and nothing happens. We have Wars yet to experience before the time of the End.

====================

Post Rapture: We know the time, immediately after the Tribulation, with the sun going dark, moon and stars. 3 1/2 years after the Antichrist declares himself as god.

Before or during Tribulation rapture: We are not sure at this point, we just know Jesus said he will come and one will be taken the other left. We know it will be sudden and unexpected, we are warned to stay ready as servants, and be faithful in what we were called to do.
That is all we know at this point.

=====================

The Trumpets:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Many say these are proof of a pre-Tribulation Rapture. Are they?

both describe the same event, being caught up, and changed, both have the dead resurrected to be with the Lord as the dead "IN CHRIST" are raised first.

We have one other resurrection mentioned.

Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave[a] gave up the dead in them. They were all judged according to their deeds. NLT (Forgot to switch back to KJV)

One is the dead in Christ, the others are judged by their works. Not the same Resurrection. We rejoice because our name is in the book of life!!!! (Luke 10:20)

So, these are not the same events, and Paul's letter were to the Church. What is missing and very clear is that Paul never mentions the Tribulation. That in itself ought to give folks a heads up.

The Trumpets again..........

The Last trump could be anything, and not to be counted as a angelic trump as recorded in REV.......... It is most likely a series of trumpet blast and on the last one we get taken and changed. This fits perfect with other trumpet sounds in the OT.

Thess describes the Trumpet more clear, it is called the Trump of God, not a angelic trumpet. The Archangel sounds AND the Trump of God is sounded. The Archangel introduces God's Trumpet as the Lord Himself comes for His church. This event does not match anything in REV.......

Antichrist:

NOTE: John is the only one that gave him this name, and only used in 1John 2:28 See how easy names stick with us and we just use them in place of other things. Antichrist just means anything that removes the anointing of the Holy Spirit from your life, and for good reason. Satan can not overcome the greater one in us, the Holy Spirit.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The coming of our Lord Jesus and being gathered together to him........

I won't go into all of it, but this ties into the Letters to the seven Churches. If the Churches fail in these warnings, they will not escape the trial that comes on the whole earth.

Here we have a Rapture event mentioned (Gathered together) The same event mentioned in 1Co 15:52 and 1th 4:16-17

This event does not occur until there is a falling away first. Hence the Letters to the seven Churches.

Falling away, just means Apostasy, deflection from truth or revolt of what the World considers to be the Church today.

2Th 2:3 Give no belief to false words: because there will first be a falling away from the faith, and the revelation of the man of sin, the son of destruction, BBE

This event is taking place right now. The 15 largest denomination has allowed ********** leadership in their church. 2 million in the U.S

The Lutheran Church 70 million has voted and passed to allow ********** leaders.

United Methodist are in the process of allowing and have allowed one ********** to stay as Pastor in Seattle.

And in shock, just recently the Presbyterian to pass vote's and allow non-Celibate homosexuals taking leadership in their churches. 4 million 1965 down to 2 million today. These folks used to march against porn shops in the 70's now look.

This is just the start and not counting all the dead churches, the churches that allow free heterosexual sex. I am sure you could name a few.

Things will get far worse, we are just getting started.............

So, this must take place in full before Jesus comes and gets us........

What else must occur?

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

What is withholding the Antichrist from being revealed? Who must be taken out of the way first?

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


The Messiah will be cut off, or Jesus the anointed King.

Note: Messiah denotes an anointed leader or king, Christ just denotes the anointing of God on someone, or Jesus the anointed one, and his anointing for us.

Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing........... ASV

The anointed Church is what is in the way of the Antichrist being revealed. He (Jesus and his body) must be taken out of the way for Satan to operate in the fullness of power for the seven years. It's the Church of the Lord Jesus that is now keeping sin at bay with the Holy Spirit convicting, reproving, correcting the World of sin. Once we are gone, chaos takes over.

It's not a question of us being protected, it's Satan being protected from the Anointed Church. He can not do what he needs to do, if we are still around. Not even close.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Jesus focus is the Church, and Hell has no power over the Church. We have already been delivered, and he is able to present us as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.

This is why there is a rapture of the Church right before the tribulation so that the rest of the world and those Luke warm believers experience the Tribulation period.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Boanerges]

Personally, it really makes no difference to me. Take me now or use me later, let that be His pleasure. Rapture theories and time lines are a dime a dozen and mine is no different. So it is just my opinion that we are still going to be here during the tribulation.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Martyrdom is a great honor in the kingdom and the Lord looks at these things quite differently than the average person. These bodies are only temporary anyhow.

 

[Brother Mike]

Our body a "LIVING" sacrifice.

Hello again Brother Boanerges !!!!

I think the word said our body is suppose to be a "LIVING" sacrifice.... Hint.... still alive??


I know God offers protection, I know he promises it. Look at this...

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection

That has remained an unknown to me. A better resurrection, for not accepting deliverance. How is it better?

I know you understand some things about the Anointing. The time line is not real hard to figure out. (Ya, I know... a dime a dozen.) Part of the issue is that REV has some just plain old information chapters that have nothing to do with the end. Then it is not in order which does not really help much.

Like the 144,000. Suddenly that are at God's throne room. No mention of them being raptured, but that is another event that take's place and one can only assume God removed them as the Angels take over the testimony of Jesus.

The bottom line is that Jesus (His body) can not be in the way. As much as we would like to stay and help, we can't. I pointed this out in Danial, and thess. If the Anointed Church is here, Satan does not stand a chance.

As for the Church, someone pointed out to me today that they did a word search and the word Church does not even appear during the Tribulation. It is switched to saints. I also pointed out that the language of the church is completely missing.

The parable of the ten virgins and then Jesus coming when five were not ready is a message to the Church to "BE READY, and DO WHAT YOUR CALLED TO DO!!!"

Interesting they were VIRGINS but just because they forgot their oil, they did not make it.

If we are here to help in the Tribulation, then we miss the lambs supper.

If you read my post again. I pointed out two separate events where Jesus comes to remove people from earth. One event matches the end of the Tribulation. The other for the Church matches the revealing of the Antichrist (Which only one scripture in the entire word called him that).

We still got wars, and rumors of wars before any of this takes place, there will be plenty of time to get yourself hung for the Lord. Things are not going to get better, as in the last days, there will be perilous times.

God bless you Brother.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Boanerges]

God bless you too my friend. I do not disrespect you or your view. I just think we may all be in for a few surprises!
Though I am still leaning post tribulation instead of mid tribulation or pre tribulatiuon I consider myself to be primarily pan tribulation- I will wait and see how it all pans out- LOL!


Here are some interesting verses from Daniel Chapter 7 - look closely at the last two in particular (all red emphasis mine):

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


And this verse:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Brother Mike]

Good stuff

Good stuff brother!!!!

The Issue is that the Word "Saints" does not have to mean Christ and the Church. That has been the battle. One side says it is, the other it is not.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

When is the deliverance, right at the time of trouble.

I already pointed out the language of the church is not mentioned during the Tribulation and all the other points I made.

Interesting in Matt 24 we know Jesus returns immiediatly right after the tribulation and after the seventh angelic trump is sounded.

then Jesus talks about the time for the Church where nobody knows the day or hour, and that event does not describe any period of the earth getting slammed by seals and vials.

Even the Parable of the ten virgins. They were surprised and not ready for the coming of Jesus.

So count two rapture events. As the days of Noah, being protected from the coming flood, and how? One was taken, one was left.

Interesting the 144,000 just suddenly show up at the throne room of God. They had to be raptured in the middle somewhere, this is where people think it is a Mid Trib, mixing the World saints with the Body of Christ.

So, I count three, which is fine, as it will be a chaotic and crazy time.

Paul said He must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. The Church holds this world together.

This tells of a pre-trib for the Church, mid for the 144,000 and the rest after the time of trial.

Keep in that study... pretty interesting stuff, which I have ignored for years.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Boanerges]

Good stuff brother!!!! The Issue is that the Word "Saints" does not have to mean Christ and the Church. That has been the battle. One side says it is, the other it is not.

That is indeed the question is it not? Since the church is plainly declared to be the Saints of God does Revelation talk about us or another body of believers?

Paul is addressing the church specifically when he says (red emphasis mine
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This seems to be the same event here:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So the question remaining is when is the last 7th trump of Revelations going to be sounded.
About the Lord's return, how many times do you think He is coming back?
As far as the ten virgins I do believe they are symbolic of believers but see no reason to believe they are a separate rapture type event. They do indeed seem to be present when the Lord comes for his bride the church but there are no indicators that He will come back more than once.

 

[Brother Mike]

Some great points

Ok, the Word saints just denotes.

sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious,

A term that does not point to the Church, but a condition of someone.

1Co 15:52 And 1Th 4:16 Are the same events. A resurrection of the Dead occurs.

The other place A Resurrection of the Dead occurs is after the Tribulation.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

One resurrection mentioned they get to be with the Lord, the other, they get the books opened and are judged.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (Jesus and his anointed)


So, on passage denotes a gathering and being directly with the Lord, as are names are already in the book of life. (Luke 10:20)

The other the books are opened, and there is judgment. Two seperate events.

Trumpets:

Rev 10:7 the last angelic Trumpet sounds, brings the End of the Tribulation period.

REV 11 Information about the Two witnesses.

REV 12 Information about Jesus, Israel and so on.

REV 13 Information about the Beast system (European nations)

REV 14 Story picks up again after the seventh angelic trumpet blast as that ended the tribulation period. (God's Wrath)

We know this because Jesus said...........

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is Jesus coming with the Angels and sickle to reap the harvest of the Earth. This occurs right after the seventh angelic Trumpet blast.

NOTE: No real trumpet blast is mentioned, but it says the Angel sounded. Good enough as we know each Angel was handed a trumpet

So, right after the end of the Tribulation (Seventh Angelic Trumpet) The sun will be darkened, the moon (As the sun reflects off the moon) and the stars are rolled up, or fall. The powers of heaven are shaken.

After that occurs and it's dark, Jesus comes with brightness that shines from East to the West. (Denotes the whole world will see this, and it's dark)

Counting Trumpets: Don't!!! nothing in scripture tells us to, and None of them match as they just start events and end events. The event itself is described with each trumpet. Nothing more to look into.

The seventh Angelic Trumpet just signifies the end of the Tribulation period. Immediately after that, we know the sun goes dark, moon and stars.

Compare to what Paul said.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You can see that these trumpets are different. Even the resurrection event is different. This resurrection event occurs right at the last trump. This is not mentioned anywhere in REV...........

This is most likely a series of trumpet blast, much like when the Walls of Jericho fell. I would say seven, but we are not given a number. At the last trump or trumpet successions, we are taken to be with the Lord, the dead in Christ raised first.

Trump of God:
The scripture tells us "The Lord HIMSELF shall descend with a shout!!!!"

This is not a angelic trumpet, and does not describe any events mentioned in REV during or after the Tribulation.

The Rapture of the Church.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Any thoughts??

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Boanerges]

My thoughts:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Praise God I am judged in Christ and not on my own merit. Though a believers works be burned away by God's holy fire (wood, hay, stubble) they will still be saved (1Co 3:15 ).



Saints or sanctified ones refers to old testament and mew testament believers.

From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the Bible:
Saint (-s)

hagios (G40), for the meaning and use of which see HOLY, B, No. 1, is used as a noun in the singular in Phi_4:21, where pas, "every," is used with it. In the plural, as used of believers, it designates all such and is not applied merely to persons of exceptional holiness, or to those who, having died, were characterized by exceptional acts of "saintliness." See especially 2Th_1:10, where "His saints" are also described as "them that believed," i.e., the whole number of the redeemed. They are called "holy ones" in Jud_1:14, RV. For the term as applied to the Holy Spirit see HOLY SPIRIT. see also SANCTIFY.
Notes: (1) In Rev_15:3 the RV follows those texts which have aionon, "ages," and assigns the reading ethnon, "nations," to the margin; the KJV translates those which have the inferior reading hagion, "saints," and puts "nations" and "ages" in the margin. (2) In Rev_18:20, the best texts have hagioi and apostoloi, each with the article, each being preceeded by kai, "and," RV, "and ye saints, and ye apostles"; the KJV, "and ye holy apostles" follows those mss. from which the 2nd kai and the article are absent. (3) In Rev_22:21, the RV follows those mss. which have hagion, with the article,"(with) the saints"; the KJV those which simply have panton, "all," but adds "you" (RV, marg., "with all").


As far as 1Cor 15:52 and 1 Th 4:16-17 both refer to believers that are still alive at His coming (as Paul refers to them as we, inclusive of the church he is addressing) which seems to support the church being present doing His will until His return. In fact these are part of the first resurrection (Rev 20:6) which again is at His return and the last trump. Since the Bible clearly calls it the last trump I have yo stick with that theory. The fact that the bible says the trump sounded seems proof enough that it made a noise so conjecture to the otherwise seems fruitless and assuming that this is a different last trump seems even more so. There can be only one last trump and it is the Bible which tells us that we will be caught up on that last trump. To me that seems plenty of reason to read the order in which they are given.
I do agree this occurs at Christ's return but I simply believe the church will be here to meet Him.

So while I do not specifically agree on your eschatology I do respect your view and love you in Jesus Name my friend. I have known brothers who spent decades studying these events and are each convinced they have it all down pat. I was one of these guys when I was a young believer (my first 15 or 20 years) but now I am content to know my Lord, study his Word and walk with Him till I am called home one way or the other.
Have a blessed day my friend,
your brother Larry.

 

[Brother Mike]

Glory to God

Thanx Brother!!!!

May we all be prepared, and fit for his coming!!!!! Those that don't agree with Post trib, or Pre-Trib will only be off about seven years. Not a big deal seeing how much work is still left to be done.

Be blessed, and favored in all you do Larry.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[tranquility]

I THINK YOU SHOULD STUDY SOME MORE
((((THE RAPTURE))))) IS IN THE BIBLE FRIEND




First come The Rapture, Revelation 4-(also see I Thessalonians 4: 15,16,17)when all the Christians will be removed from the earth

then COMES



the Tribulation Period which will last for 7 years Revelation Chapters 6-19



after that the Second Coming of Christ Revelation 19:11-21



Then the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, Revelation 20:6

a time of peace when Jesus will rule on earth from his

Father David's Throne (this is also a time when

Satan will be bound 1000 years)



After the thousand years are up

Satan will be loosed again to deceive the nations. Revelation 20:7-10



Fire will rain down out of the sky on those nations who rise up against God and they will be devoured Revelation 20:9,10



Then comes The White Throne Judgment, A Judgment

For All UNBELIEVERS Revelation 20:11

(NO SAVED PEOPLE WILL BE IN THIS JUDGMENT

This Judgment takes place during indescribable

void between the end of the present universe and

the creation of the new heaven and earth

ALL THE SINNERS WILL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE

AND THE EARTH WILL BE BURNED UP (CLEANED UP)

ELEMENTS WILL MELT WITH A FERVENT HEAT

here the contaminated universe goes out of existence.

Peter describes this moment in 2 Peter 3:10-13

The universe is uncreated and going into non-existence Matt 24:35



THIS IS GODS WAY OF GETTING RID OF ALL EVIL BEFORE HE BRINGS DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN,



The Holy City, New Jerusalem

where all the Christians (saved redeemed by the blood of the lamb)

will dwell forever. Revelation 21



and so shall we live there forever.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture

Tranquility, That is pretty much how it happens.

If people would read Mat 24, they will see Jesus talk to those that have to flee in Judaea. Jesus Is addressing Israel here. He is addressing those that don't know him as Lord, and makes no mention that these people consider him Lord.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

He then tells them EXACTLY when he comes back as you mentioned, and it matches Rev 19. He comes back Immediately after the Tribulation, or after the seventh Angelic Trumpet which ends the Tribulation. We know exactly when Jesus returns in this Event. The sun will Darken, the moon and the stars. Then He comes.

Rapture Event:

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This event, we don't know when He comes. He just gives us a general outline (Season) to be aware of. This event is described as things going on as they have always gone on. Nothing indicates the World had just gone though a traumatic experience.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

This Event is for those that Call Jesus Lord, not for those that had to flee and lived in Judaea. Nothing about fleeing or hiding here, just a warning to be prepared, and in your place that God has set you in the Body of Christ, being faithful, and keeping Jesus as Lord.

This is two distinct Events where Jesus takes a group of believers. There are two distinct Resurrection events. One for those written in the book of life (Those in Christ) and those that will be judged at the End with the books opened. (The record of your deeds, and the Book of Life)

We the Church are in the book of life, and will not be part of the White throne judgment, as Tranquility stated.

Jesus Is Lord.