Willow Creek Split Over 'Gay' Issue

[stephen]

Evangelical Leader Touts Gospel, Not Therapy, as Way to 'Reorient' Gays

The "reorientation" of a homosexual is not impossible, suggests one prominent evangelical. That is, when Christ is in the mix.

Dr. Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, concedes that therapy - the secular kind - is not likely to change a person. But there is hope when a person acknowledges sin and is redeemed by Christ. "We will hold no hope for any sinner's ability to change his or her own heart, and we will hold little hope for any secular therapy to offer more than marginal improvement in a sinner's life," he argued in his blog Tuesday.

"We hold full confidence in the power of the Gospel and of the reign of Christ within the life of the believer. We know that something as deeply entrenched as a pattern of sexual attraction is not easily changed, but we know that with Christ all things are possible."

Mohler is weighing in on a debate that was reignited after a pro-gay group, Truth Wins Outs, accused Bachmann & Associates of showing "great antipathy towards gay and lesbian people" by practicing reparative therapy. The Christian counseling center, owned by Michele and Marcus Bachmann, was recently visited by TWO's John Becker who posed as a Christian wanting to get rid of his homosexuality.

While Marcus Bachmann, a clinical therapist for more than 20 years, has stated that they would help patients struggling with same-sex desires if such help was requested, he highlighted that the counseling center mainly deals with issues such as depression and anxiety.

The debate over "curing gays," as some call it, is one that Christians cannot avoid, Mohler believes. At the same time, Christians should not enter the debate "on secular terms."

"We must bring to this conversation everything we know from God's Word about our sin and God's provision for sinners in Christ," [he] stressed.

(Nathan Black, "Evangelical Leader Touts Gospel, Not Therapy, as Way to 'Reorient' Gays

," Christian Post, July 19, 2011).

 

[B-A-C]

Homosexuality is a sin like any other.
Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, Gen 19:5-13, Rom 1:26-27, 1Cor 6:9, 1Tim 1:9-10

The "cure" for sin is Jesus.
Some of us are born with the tendency to lie, others are born with a tendency to gamble, or drink, or do drugs, or steal, or molest children, or beat their wives.
We are all born into sin and have the tendency to sin. Yes some are born with the tendency to be homosexual. That doesn't make it any less sin.

1John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

 

[Plinshree]

While Marcus Bachmann, a clinical therapist for more than 20 years, has stated that they would help patients struggling with same-sex desires if such help was requested, he highlighted that the counseling center mainly deals with issues such as depression and anxiety.

I don't know if you know this but this guy is Michele Bachmann's ( as in the fruitcake that is giving Jesus a black eye by her antics and will wreck America if we vote her into office) husband. He would advocate this type of counseling because he makes boku bucks off of it. He, nor his wife, even view homosexuals as people. Much less have any concern for their souls or well being.

 

[stephen]

I don't know if you know this but this guy is Michele Bachmann's ( as in the fruitcake that is giving Jesus a black eye by her antics and will wreck America if we vote her into office) husband. He would advocate this type of counseling because he makes boku bucks off of it. He, nor his wife, even view homosexuals as people. Much less have any concern for their souls or well being.

Thanks for the information dear sister in Jesus. I had no idea. Often what I post is done to create interest a a subject. And often I am not aware of the entire views of the writer that I qoute.

I stand corrected.

Regards.

 

[Plinshree]

Not a problem! I hope I did not come across too harshly.

I completely understand posting to create interest in a subject. Sometimes I like to join threads to debate and reason in the name of learning something new.

Much love in Him, Brother!

 

[happyharold4]

I don't know if you know this but this guy is Michele Bachmann's ( as in the fruitcake that is giving Jesus a black eye by her antics and will wreck America if we vote her into office) husband. He would advocate this type of counseling because he makes boku bucks off of it. He, nor his wife, even view homosexuals as people. Much less have any concern for their souls or well being.

Seems like you know this family quite well.

Happy

 

[Rad]

Never ceases to amaze and depress me just how much time and effort some|"Christians" put into condmening the sin of homosexuality,...... I often think that if it was such an important issue in God's eyes then Jesus would have at least mentioned it,........ but after searching the Gospels, no, not once!!,......... he mentions and condemns many other things,...... riches and hypocrisy to name but two,........ but you know often the same people condemning homosexuality have little to say on these issues,......... definite case of straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel and seeing the speck in someones eye but not the Log in your own!!

 

[Christ4Ever]

Never ceases to amaze and depress me just how much time and effort some|"Christians" put into condmening the sin of homosexuality,...... I often think that if it was such an important issue in God's eyes then Jesus would have at least mentioned it,........ but after searching the Gospels, no, not once!!,......... he mentions and condemns many other things,...... riches and hypocrisy to name but two,........ but you know often the same people condemning homosexuality have little to say on these issues,......... definite case of straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel and seeing the speck in someones eye but not the Log in your own!!

Too bad we don't give greater time to it and other sinful areas as well! We all should be working on this and many others.
Might not be in England where correct me if I'm wrong, but Civil Union is acceptable. Seems England has fought this battle and has lost it. Not intended to bash England, loved the country when I was there for two years, but the weather had to go however sadly the U.S. is moving in the same direction, but some are still battling away. Remember, the war has been won, but the battles which are occurring on many fronts continue.

In the U.S. this "alternate lifestyle" continues to gain momentum from movies to being introduced into our schools. An example of this is one of our states called California which either has or is in the processing of requiring that history books used in school must contain a section dedicated to "Homosexual Heroes" who have made contributions to this country. Alarming! Children who don’t know the Lord, but will have “Homosexual Heroes”! This doesn’t even include the churches that find nothing wrong with it, who even have them preaching from the pulpit.

When you stated that it must not be such an important issue in God's eyes since Jesus didn't mention it even once, is the wrong way of looking at it. The Jews already condemned the act so why would it have been necessary to bring it up? He spent more time identifying the things they were failing to do. Just in case we did need reminding however, God did provide us Romans 1:24-27, 32 so that we might understand where He was coming from on this subject.

I do agree that there are many areas that require our attention and that some folks pay greater attention to this especially if they’re into politics, or money is involved, since it’s guaranteed to bring you supporters and free advertisement. However, the subject does need to continue to be brought up, and addressed, over and over again. It’s our inability to continue to hold our ground on right and almost right, which includes a myriad of subjects not only homosexuality, i.e. Immorality, or is Christ the only way to be saved, creation verses evolution, heaven/hell are they real places? God uses who he wills, and that includes those who might not be doing it for altruistic purposes. We need to stand strong with much prayer, and just because we can’t deal with all the “holes in the boat” at once, doesn’t mean I’m not going to try to tackle them one at a time, even though I know this boat is going to sink (Book of Revelation). I just try to attempt it with great Joy & Love as I hope all of us do!

 

[Rad]

Hi Christ4Ever

Interesting reply,........ the problem with the continuing habit of many "Christians" in focusing on the Gay issue is that it seems to re-inforce all of the inherent prejudices and hatred that many people feel towards Homosexuals,....... it is no surprise that in many Catholic countries, and some where Evangelicals have taken root, Homosexuality is viewed as a sin far greater than any other,...... which has led to attacks and even murders of Gay men and women,........ we are playing with fire and should tread very carefully,........ I notice you used the phrase, "some churches even have "them" preaching from the Pulpit",........ and why shouldn't "they",...... or are you saying that only those of us without sin are worthy to preach God's word?.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Christ4Ever

Interesting reply,........ the problem with the continuing habit of many "Christians" in focusing on the Gay issue is that it seems to re-inforce all of the inherent prejudices and hatred that many people feel towards Homosexuals,....... it is no surprise that in many Catholic countries, and some where Evangelicals have taken root, Homosexuality is viewed as a sin far greater than any other,...... which has led to attacks and even murders of Gay men and women,........ we are playing with fire and should tread very carefully,........ I notice you used the phrase, "some churches even have "them" preaching from the Pulpit",........ and why shouldn't "they",...... or are you saying that only those of us without sin are worthy to preach God's word?.

Hello Brother Rad,
Glad you found my reply interesting

Any position that a Christian takes concerning morality will inherently prejudice someone who is of the world. We who hold scriptures inerrancy cannot help but fall short of acceptance by the world, which is not something we should desire anyway. My concern is not of any particular sin including “homosexuality” for those who do not know the Lord as their Savior; rather it’s for them to acknowledge that they are sinners, and that Christ Jesus died for those sins. Salvation for those who don’t know Him is what I pray, and strength to continue work in spreading of the Gospel which is the great commission set to us to do is my focus.

Some non-believers who have talked to me about what scripture says in regards to sin, I’ve found, are usually looking for some precondition to accepting Christ. They are really looking for God’s acceptance of something sinful in their lives that they don’t want to give up. Holding on to something that is temporary to this life rather than eternal, for me is sad beyond belief. Yet it happens all the time, and being gay is one of those impediments, because they usually know beforehand that scripture holds firm against it. Same can be said for thieves, liars, adulterers etc.

The do’s and don’ts of scripture are for those who believe. For what good is it if a homosexual changes his lifestyle but doesn’t accept the Lord as his savior? Scripture will only help one who is either searching with all his heart for God, or a believer to assist them to grow, teach etc. I’ve worked and continue to interact with those with alternate lifestyles, and they are surprised that I treat them no differently than anybody else by showing them the Love of our Lord Jesus. Surprised because they know that I’m a Christian who I repeat believes in the inerrancy of scripture and does not condone this behavior. Yet I love them anyway and they know it, and realize that I want them to know the Lord as their Savior anyway! Not my job to clean them up! The Holy Spirit with the Word of God will take care of that
I will tell you that I hate the sin, but love the sinner. Yes one can separate them. It’s those believers who have difficulty with this concept or twist it around, who need to step back and read the gospel again, and again; as many times as it takes them to understand that the Love we ourselves received and should be imparting to others which is in a nut shell John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And because we want to return that Love to Him, we should be doing what is pleasing to Him. Scripturally speaking, homosexuality is not pleasing to God and I will pray for the changing of their hearts, vote against it when it comes up, speak up if asked, but I will not ignore it or accept it just like I won’t ignore or accept stealing, telling of lies, or any sin that would separate one from God. I also don't throw it into their faces, as if I'm some how better than they are! I don't forget where I came from, which is exactly where they are right now.

Nope, I’m not perfect yet, but I’m working on it and with the Holy Spirit, I know one day to know that perfection! To be a perfect vessel so I can worship my Lord, my Savior, my King, my God for all eternity! Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia!!!!! Praise His Holy Name Forever!

Brother we have so much to look forward to, don’t let the world drag you down to its level or way of thinking, unless you go there on purpose in order to lift them up! Don’t let self styled preachers, teachers etc. tell you something is right when you can tell scripturally that it’s wrong. They can have degrees of higher learning, and still not know the truth! The Pharisees and Sadducees were perfect examples of this. Look who the Apostles were! In our world today would they even be listened to, if not in a mega church, or some TV Evangelist? Our God uses who He wills and His will is perfect and Awesome indeed!

"Iron Sharpens Iron"
Love you brother!

 

[Rad]

Christ4Ever

Nothing I can disagree with in your reply,..... many thanks for it,...... the point I was raising was not to do with the sin of Homosexuality but the predominance it seems to hold in many Christians minds,...... just had a quick check through the threads in this section and guess what came out on top with the most comments, and the second highest views,........ yes you've guessed it,........ why is that?, what is it that we find so offensive and deserving of so much time and effort in condemning,...... I read in the US that compassionate "Christian" evangalist Pat Robertson talks of the "queering" of America and how it will fall because of it,....... or of homosexuality being said to be worse than "terrorism",........ as you rightly say Love the sinner, hate the sin,........ but for some Christians it certainly seems to be the case where Homosexuality is concerned of hating both the sin and the sinner!.

 

[misesfan]

If I may - the problem with the current political situation that Christians devolve to when discussing homosexuality is one of government. That is, marriage is a religious institution. When government confers benefits to those who are married, up and to the point of actually issuing marriage licenses, then that marriage is no longer religious but secular.

Christians, I think, have had this religious institution overtaken by government. And instead of arguing to remove the government influence from our religious freedom, we ask that government intervene more by defining what marriage is and so forth. How preposterous!

A homosexual has a tendency to view this as discriminatory, and rightly so! The government states that a certain person is good and a certain person bad (as far as who gets benefits and so forth), when it does not have that right.

The answer is very clear - remove government from our religious institutions. Let those who get married, take that sacred vow according to our principles. Those of other religions and beliefs and lifestyles - well.... they will do as they will.

 

[Christ4Ever]

The answer is very clear - remove government from our religious institutions. Let those who get married, take that sacred vow according to our principles. Those of other religions and beliefs and lifestyles - well.... they will do as they will.

Very true misesfan, but it will never happen in this world as it is. The government desires greater intrusion into our lives and not less. Didn't you know it's because they know some much more than we do! LOL
Excellent point.

but for some Christians it certainly seems to be the case where Homosexuality is concerned of hating both the sin and the sinner!.

So true. However, it still does not take away from the need when expressed with the Love of Christ, to address the issue of sin when it's made to seem right whether it's by Believers or the secular world.
Sadly, it is true that Believers can forget where they’ve come from I’ve addressed brothers & sisters in this, and have had it done to me in the past, which at the time was hard to accept, but one that I can look back upon with great appreciation and thanks for them stepping out and caring enough to bring it to my attention. That they communicated it with the Love of the Lord, made all the difference. Sometimes it’s the methodology that’s the problem, and not the issue at hand.
God Bless you both!
YBIC
C4E

 

[misesfan]

Very true misesfan, but it will never happen in this world as it is. The government desires greater intrusion into our lives and not less. Didn't you know it's because they know some much more than we do! LOL
Excellent point.



So true. However, it still does not take away from the need when expressed with the Love of Christ, to address the issue of sin when it's made to seem right whether it's by Believers or the secular world.
Sadly, it is true that Believers can forget where they’ve come from I’ve addressed brothers & sisters in this, and have had it done to me in the past, which at the time was hard to accept, but one that I can look back upon with great appreciation and thanks for them stepping out and caring enough to bring it to my attention. That they communicated it with the Love of the Lord, made all the difference. Sometimes it’s the methodology that’s the problem, and not the issue at hand.
God Bless you both!
YBIC
C4E

Thank you very much for your kind reply!
I agree with you that government is akin to a gas - filling up all available space until everyone chokes and passes out! lol

If I may ask - to your second point, what was being taught in which you needed correction? Just so that I am clear - I usually am like a six year old who needs big white paper and crayons to understand!

 

[Christ4Ever]

If I may ask - to your second point, what was being taught in which you needed correction? Just so that I am clear - I usually am like a six year old who needs big white paper and crayons to understand!

Now to pick just one Correction has occurred to me more than one time, and by different means. God does not limit instruction on ones walk to just believers bringing to your attention an error in word or deed. His Word has probably been the most corrective and guiding to me in my walk. What I’ve done or failed to do, after reading Scripture, brings to my attention my failings, what I need to be doing, but also has shown me His Great Mercy. It has served as correction and growth in my life so many times; I thank our Holy Father for His great patience and Love towards me. An incident that comes to mind readily, because in what happened I’ve learned a myriad of lessons, dealing with everything from what it means to Love, truth and at times the sacrifices they entail. It’s not a great story as stories go, but you’ll find that many of the small things that happen in your life and the lives of others can have great impact in your Walk with God because they are personal.


-----I was taking a driving test in order to receive a license to drive in Spain. The instructor had already told us that we would be checking our own test, by passing them to the person next to us! My wife was next to me so I couldn’t believe my “good fortune”! I did the test in pencil to assure if I did get anything wrong, she’d be able to fix it for me. She proceeded to check my test, corrected none of my wrong answers and failed me! LOL it’s so funny now I can’t help but laugh, but at the time it was no laughing matter. Stuck in a foreign country and not being able to drive. My anger, shame, the feeling of betrayal was such, that I heaped verbal and non-verbal abuse upon her head. Even attempting to shame her by telling others what she had done! Doesn’t make for happy times, I can tell you that. God however, had other plans! Praise His Holy Name. He allowed a brother in Christ to come into my life who heard what I had been saying, to bring to my attention shortly thereafter how wrong I was. His hearing my story and taking the time to show me where I erred not only as a Christian (My walk with God.), but also, in how badly I had treated my wife was eye opening and truly a blessing. I thank God for blessings similar to these, and in the fellowship of believers throughout the years, but especially for bringing to my attention how my wife and this brother unknowingly at the time helped me understand by example that it's not always easy to communicate God’s truth with His Love.

As you can tell not an awesome story by biblical or personal accounts, but one that has taught me lessons beyond it’s telling.
Like your Bible Verse 1 Thess 4:11
YBIC
C4E