Women preaching?

[alicia_charne]

Is this verse final does it mean I can't become a pastor. It can't be can it?
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

 

[Jazzyblues]

I think that it is important to remember that all scripture is God-breathed, and that when Paul wrote to Timothy, what he wrote is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Paul is speaking as Christ's apostle, and I think what he's saying has got to do with the consequences of original sin.

RE, Genesis 3:16

"To the woman he said: 'I will greatly muiltiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.' "

This little quote from Genesis sheds light on vs 11 of 1Tim 2



I think it was written as final, because We don't see some kind of ammendment later on in the letter or indeed (to my limited knowledge) the scriptures as a whole.

The greek word used in 1Tim 2:12 , transliterally written in Vimes' as didasko (just in case you were interested in that), means: "to give instruction", for the word translated as authority, authenteo, is planted halfway down a small paragraph of several definitions, So I'll just put them all in; "to exercise authority on one's own account, to domineer over" "to usurp authority" "to have dominion".

This in mind, I don't think Paul is saying women are to be silent in general,
but they should be silent rather than instructing blokes or exercising authority over men. I think that it's important to emphasise here that while dynamics for the leadership of the church specified in the Bible seems to rely on mature men of sound faith and character, that there are many kinds of ministries, witnessing and tasks in the church which cannot really be done by men. I suppose, being male, I must admit to having a certain level ignorance of just what these things are.
One Biblical example I can think of is in his letter to Titus where Paul says,

"But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine:
that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behaviour, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers on good things- that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed." 2:1-5

I think that it is significant that it is the older women, not the men or elders and not anyone else, who are told to teach the younger women to do all these things, so that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

So that the word may not be blasphemed: this is the whole reason why Paul is even talking doctrine to Titus and even, I think, to Timothy. This is a truly important point being made, and I think that It is truly unwise to seek to do somthing that is expressly advised against in the God-breathed scriptures.

So that all being long-windedly said,

I think that it does mean that you can't become a Pastor, not Biblically anyway.
I can never be the one to teach women to love their children, and I doubt I'd make a very good missionary to a women's refuge.

Alrighty,
God bless!

Jazzy

 

[Dreamer]

I moved this thread here to lounge instead of bible trivia. It's a good question, Alicia Charne.

Jazzyblue's reply is more than good! It's thorough, biblical and true. Okay, I do have something to add.

There are many ministries in which it is more proper (and more powerful!) for women to lead in. (Sorry, men.:embarasse )

I've worked in womens jail ministry for 12 years. It's not appropriate or useful for men to preach or minister in a cell block full of women, for several reasons. However, if God should move a man to come with us and minister, then so be it!

I have no interest in men's jail ministry. I feel that God calls godly men to do that. Whoever those godly men are, they have not yet risen up to minister, because our county jail has no ministry to the male inmates.

Single moms need women to minister to them! I want to really emphasize that! I was a single mom for 5 years, God allowed it because now I have understanding and compassion for the special needs of single moms. Sometimes when men tried to minister to me during that time....it was not appropriate or did not appear appropriate to other church members. See what I mean? One man in particular was very good to me, helping me in all kinds of ways, but that was not fair to his wife! The next time they helped me move, his wife and whole family helped me; they were a blessing in so many ways!

I have a godly mentor at my church, a woman about 20 years older than me. She listens to me and prays for me, especially concerning my marriage. I literally do not know what I would have done in my life without this woman.
She is a God-send to me for sure. Sometimes my husband even calls her privately; he knows that my friend will give him good advice for our marriage. This woman often has reminded me: "Jan, no matter what goes on, your husband loves you." She gives me courage to go on, to forgive, to do what's right!

Alicia Charne, there is all kinds of mission work for you to do! You are not limited at all by the many needs of people in this world. To be the pastor of a church, I believe Scripture forbids a woman to do so. But some disagree with me.

If God is calling you...by all means....follow Him! He has called us to be fishers of men....and women....and children! Praise God Many women these days are Childrens Pastors. Now....down here where I live...the church calls them a "Childrens Director" instead of a Childrens Pastor. But if it is a man, doing the same job, they call him a Childrens Pastor. I don't particularly agree with that, but so what. The woman is still called by God and doing her job as a Childrens Pastor no matter what her job title is. God knows the truth and will honor her ministry if she keeps her sight on Him.

Love in Christ,
Jan (Dreamer)

 

[alicia_charne]

But what about all the powerful women preachers out there like Joyce Meyers. She really has changed the world for alot better.

What if it's my calling and gift? Does God not say to use your gifts that He gives you(Romans 12:6)? Does He not send out all people to preach the gospel.

I mean what is the definition of church? A gathering of the bride of Christ in fellowship (Christians). If you were to lead that then you are considered a leader of pastor. I am a youth leader (not pastor its almost like a prefect) and I am a women. In a leadership position over other youth who are also male. And what abt all the powerful prophets of the bible who were female.

If they were female and didnt speak up then they would have been untrue to God and their calling. Such as Miriam (Exodus 15:20), Deborah (Judges 4-5), Helduh (2kings 22:14) and the 4 daughters of Phillip (Acts 21:8-9)?

And does Jesus limit those who make disciples (part of the job of a pastor) off all nations to men. Yes I believe a woman should submit under God, her father and husband as it is a womans place but I do not believe that I am to drop my calling and desire to teach the word to large amounts of people because of 2 verses which are contridicted.

In 1 Corinthians 1:11 Paul refers to Choloe's household. He so doing is refering to Choloe as the leader a woman. I know that each book must be taken it context with it's city it was written to. But I don't have much info on the subject yet and the History of Timothys concregation yet except that he was a youth when it all started. Can anyone help me.

I am really interested in getting to the truth of this issue whatever it may be. I also heard that there is a place where Paul agnowledges female pastors of priests but can't find it.

Why would God tell me that I will preach in conventions the size of Hillsong convention and then be against female pastors? Could this have been becuase of the culture of women back then? Could it be because of the way women were in those days. I mean doesnt the bible also allow slavery and give rules for it and today it is seen as a cruelty and inhumane?

Sorry for all the questions but this could change my whole life I need the truth and understanding.. Yes I know it just reminded me of James 1:5...

Thanx for all the replies

 

[DunkedinFire]

Leadership is male

I think one of the most enlightnening books, apart from Scripture, I read on this whole subject was some years ago. Entitled 'Leadership is Male' the book is written by Rev J David Pawson.

I have met David personally and have heard him preach on a number of occassions. I respect the premise upon which he asserts the scriptural basis that leadereship is male, which is, "Truth Must Not Be Based On Cultural Consensus but on the Revealed Mind of God."

The issue of feminism is shown to be a matter of women refusing to accept the simple command to be in submission. Equally importantly male chauvinism is shown to be an overreaction causing men to become dictators rather than gentle, loving leaders which should all be very obvious to those who are filled with the loveliness of the Spirit of Christ and have read the plain words of Holy Scripture.

 

[jculver]

In my study in the subject, I tend to agree with Dunked in Fire.

However, I do also agree with Dreamer in some ways.

Overall I think a woman should not be a pastor (or even an elder), but woman should be active in ministry.

There is a large difference between pastoring, and ministry. Women will obviously be more effective than men at ministering to women, but I believe leadership of the church is assigned to males by the scripture you presented.

The pastor is the head of the church, and though it may be perfectly God's will for a women to preach and minister, I do not believe it is to teach and lead.

I hope you don't think I am for female oppression or something, but I do believe the role of women is not that of a teacher or leader in the church. I also do not think that women should be a "slave" to her husband, but submit to him in every respect, and that might seem ridiculous, but if the husband is a good husband then everything will work as God intended.

I am going to copy/paste a quick view on the issue:

Can women serve as elders in the church?
by
John MacArthur
All Rights Reserved

We don't believe there's a place for women elders in the church. When the apostle Paul said that a woman should not "teach or exercise authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12), he did not follow that statement with a cultural argument. Rather he went all the way back to creation to show that women weren't intended to dominate men (vv. 13-14). The reasons he gave are that the woman was created after the man, and that she was deceived when acting independently of his leadership.


Paul goes on to say in 1 Timothy 2:15 that "women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." That verse is not talking about women's eternal destiny, but means that they are saved from being second-class citizens through the privilege of rearing children. God designed a woman to fulfill a role in the home that no man ever can (Proverbs 31:10-31; Titus 2:4-5).

Our society's current thinking on the woman's role is contrary to the priorities revealed in the Bible. Genesis 3 explains why that conflict exists. After the Fall, God told the woman, "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" (Genesis 3:16). Genesis 4:7 helps us to understand what that verse means. There God told Cain, "Sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Exactly the same phrase is used in both passages.


So in the same way sin tries to dominate us all, fallen women desire to overpower their husbands, and fallen men tend to oppress them in the same way sin oppresses the sinner. The intended balance, of course, is achieved when men and women lead and submit in a godly manner (Ephesians 5:22-33).

 

[stephen]

I am all in favour of womens ministries. Pastoral.....and the rest. In Jesus there is neither male nor female, bond nor free. If it is apparent that a sister has a gift, why should she be withheld from speaking, on the premise that she is a woman.

I am aware that Jesus chose 12 men. In that day he could do no other. Today the church needs men and women with giftings from the Lord.

"It shall come to pass in the last days sayeth God that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and youir sons and your daughters shall prophesy......."

It has to do with gifting. It has to do with anointing. "God hath set in the church......some Apostles etc." We are speaking about church. About gifting, about anointing, without which there will be no progress.

If there is no "gift" the church will close.........History bears witness.

 

[Dreamer]

I would like to pose a question now: Why are men a Children's Pastor, and women are called a Children's Director? What's the difference? So....women are good enough to conceive and bear children, but not to be a minister over them?

Boy, I bet Timothy would have something to say about that if he were here now in our day and age.
His grandmother and mother were instrumental in his spiritual growth. But that's just my opinion.
I don't like it that I've become so defensive on this subject....of women in ministry or being a p-p-p (see? I can't even say it!) P-p-pastor! It's considered raw language here in the Bible Belt to say woman and pastor in the same breath.

I've been laughed at and mocked for preaching. I'm not a pastor. But when the Holy Spirit leads, I've been known to preach a few times. Even preached using a large mouse puppet sometimes. (She knew the scriptures really well.) The "church mouse's" name was Kady. Sometimes after Kady "preached", people would come up to me after church with a puzzled look on their face. "How do you know? How do you know what I'm going through? How did you know to talk about that and to use those scriptures? It's like....God spoke through you."

And I answer, "No, it wasn't me...it was God.....and Kady the church mouse." The truth is, the Holy Spirit directly fed to me most of the skits and plays I wrote to use in that church. So was that preaching? Should I have just shut my mouth, and Kady's too?

Seems the only acceptable way a woman can preach is to become a mouse with big pink ears, or a clown with pink hair and a red nose. That has been well-accepted in this area. But when I go to jail and preach the gospel, then I'm overstepping across the line? The bible says: "How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, Your God reigns!" Isaiah 52:7

If Alicia_Charne's name was Andrew Charne, no one would have a problem with her preaching. But now she has to defend herself just in order to teach the Word of God to hungry hearts and listening ears?

 

[jiggyfly]

1Timothy 3:1-7
1*It is a true saying that if someone wants to be an elder,* he desires an honorable responsibility. 2*For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against. He must be faithful to his wife.* He must exhibit self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home and must be able to teach. 3*He must not be a heavy drinker or be violent. He must be gentle, peace loving, and not one who loves money. 4*He must manage his own family well, with children who respect and obey him. 5 For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?
6*An elder must not be a new Christian, because he might be proud of being chosen so soon, and the Devil will use that pride to make him fall.* 7 Also, people outside the church must speak well of him so that he will not fall into the Devil’s trap and be disgraced.

I guess then it is ok for a wife to run and lead the family also and be the leader. You can't keep changing the rules to answer the question of the day.

Please stop using Galatians 3:28 to prove or disprove the authority of a woman in the body of Christ. Galatians 3:28 has absolutely nothing to do with this subject unless you take it out of context and twist it. If there are neither male nor female in Christ then there are not brothers and sisters also.
If you interpret this scripture in this manner then maybe Ted Haggard didn't do anything wrong.

There are far to many men and women operating on and in their own authority "in the name of Jesus" today. Jesus, Himself said, *"On judgment day many will tell me, ‘Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ *But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized."


The religious institution of Jesus' day (Judaism) is still functioning today so does that mean that it is of God? There are many churches functioning under the premise of being part of the body of Christ but they are nothing more than counterfeits. Catholicism is evidence of this. It is nothing more than carnal thinking to suggest that what Jesus is building has it's foundation in the earth. Jesus is building a spiritual church that is established in the heavens.

May I suggest that you don't follow anyone who has to be recognized as the "one in authority" or the "one in charge".

 

[jculver]

I can't believe that jiggly actually agrees with me for once lol.

In all seriousness I would like to reiterate my position:

Preaching, fine for women in many circumstances, but I do not believe they were designed for leadership roles. Teaching and leading are far different then preaching. The command to preach the gospel to all nations is for men and women, but the verse of topic is pretty clear about leadership.

 

[alicia_charne]

So if I wee to start an all womens church would I be able to pastor it then? What about all the prophtesses I spoke about earlier?

Would it be better for a man unsuited for pastoring a church or being a youth leader to take my place as a youth leader without the annointing or gifts that God has blessed me with?

Next time God says Alicia go to the front of the congreagtion and tell the people that a great change in your church is coming am I to say no Lord I am a female I cant do that?

If God gives me a great leadership quality and puts me in a leadership role in a deliverance sessiopn and there are males present and God tells me to order one of the males to leave the room then he doesn't have to listen does he because I am a woman?

God sees no race!!!!! God sees no male nor female does He? I am as much a part of the Bride of Christ as my fellow brothersbut bride is a female object so then all males are actually female in God's eyes. We represent Female and Christ Male.

I am sure that Timothy being a youth and unexperienced in church leadership probably might have had maybe a female who was a false teacher in his church or the women were very seductive and could seduce the congregation into false beliefs and so Paul told him not to allow women to talk but rather just man.

If we are to take the bible just as it is then we should have widow marrying their brother in laws. We should have first born sons recieving everyting and not the woman anythiung. We should not be dating as it is not spoken of in the bible. We should have men takinfg a year off of all responsibilties when they first get married to look after their wives.

Does this whole issue not remind you of how the Pharisies told Jesus that Hids disciples did not wash thier hands before they ate and Jesus replied that it just went threw the body and out again and had no influence on mans cleanliness.

So the same if a women is called by God who are we as man to say no God I am a woman I can't because in a ctual fact we can't no one can ONLY GOD CAN DO IT AND IF HE CHOOSES TO USE A WOMEN THEN I WOULDNT GET IN HIS WAY.

I dont serve a God who told men that they could do all things threw christ who strengthens them. I believe that that verse I can do ALLL THINGS threw Christ who strengthens me applies as much to me as any male on this planet.

I am not questioning the female to submit under her God placed male authorities but I am saying that God has made exceptions before. He has changed His mind before Just think of how He wanted to kill Israel and Moses changed His mind by pleading with Him.

God made both male and female in His image. He loves us both equally. God does not have preferences. I am NOT IN A RELIGION.THESE ARE RELIGIOUS LAWS!!!!!!! I AM IN A RELATIONSHIP AND I AM FREE TO TALK ABOUT HIM WHENEVER I WANT AS HE IS MY FRIST LOVE. HE IS MY GROOM, SAVIOUR AND MASSIAH.

I say all this i love but I really don't agree with the statement that a women may not lead. There is more to this verse and I pray God will open it uo ro us because Hei is not a God of ritual but of intimate relationship.

Be bless

Awaiting your replie

Your sister in Christ

 

[jiggyfly]

So if I wee to start an all womens church would I be able to pastor it then?

Has God asked you to do this, or is this something you want to do for Him?

I am sure that Timothy being a youth and unexperienced in church leadership probably might have had maybe a female who was a false teacher in his church or the women were very seductive and could seduce the congregation into false beliefs and so Paul told him not to allow women to talk but rather just man.

Pure speculation.

God sees no race!!!!! God sees no male nor female does He? I am as much a part of the Bride of Christ as my fellow brothersbut bride is a female object so then all males are actually female in God's eyes. We represent Female and Christ Male.

This is a contradiction, either God sees it or He doesn't, so which is it?

God made both male and female in His image. He loves us both equally. God does not have preferences. I am NOT IN A RELIGION.THESE ARE RELIGIOUS LAWS!!!!!!! I AM IN A RELATIONSHIP AND I AM FREE TO TALK ABOUT HIM WHENEVER I WANT AS HE IS MY FRIST LOVE. HE IS MY GROOM, SAVIOUR AND MASSIAH.

What scripture do you base your statement on both male and female being made in the image of God?

So the same if a women is called by God who are we as man to say no God I am a woman I can't because in a ctual fact we can't no one can ONLY GOD CAN DO IT AND IF HE CHOOSES TO USE A WOMEN THEN I WOULDNT GET IN HIS WAY.

Sounds like you have already justified yourself and made up your mind.

 

[jiggyfly]

I would like to pose a question now: Why are men a Children's Pastor, and women are called a Children's Director? What's the difference? So....women are good enough to conceive and bear children, but not to be a minister over them?

Sorry I can't answer your question, but I can say that this is one of the differences between the religious institution and the Church that Jesus is building. It's impossible to get goofed up like that following Jesus, that only happens from following man. If you study church history you can see the evidence of this all through the ages. Man makes messes. I suggest you try not to focus on what man does, permits, initiates and regulates, but rather focus on Christ.

 

[shortlady]

Is this verse final does it mean I can't become a pastor. It can't be can it?
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

I know in the time when Paul was living women wasn't allowed to speak in public places. But now I understand that when we have the holy spirit it has no gender the holy spirit isn't male or female. And we have the ability to speak thus says the Lord. There were deaconess in Paul days and stuff forth I know i hear some powerful women preachers and God isn't a respector of person and if we think He is we limit the hand and the movement of God.

God uses whom ever He pleases and it is evident in the bible. We have a woman as a judge in the old testament her name was Deborah and we have other heroin of the bible. Like Rahab we have women that teaches us things like Ruth and Naomi.

Be Bless and Just know many are called but a few are chosen.

 

[calluna]

To me there seems to be different angles on this, but if 1Tim 2:12 says it is not ok for women to preach, then I might have to agree with the Word of God, but like someone already said how do you explain women like Joyce Meyers, who I believe is a great teacher who has struggled against opposition along the way but has stood strong in her conviction and ministers to thousands.
And I have to add that Dreamer, I love your humour, your post had such valid points and was so funny....Andrew Charne ......its true though.

:shade: Calluna

 

[DunkedinFire]

For men and woman alike!

We must remember the Spirit of God and the spiritual gifts are given equally to men and women in today’s Church in accordance with Joel’s prophecy found in Joel 2:28-32; the fulfilment of which happened on the day of Pentecost and recorded in Acts 2:14-18 New Living Translation:

14 Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this. 15 These people are not drunk, as some of you are assuming. Nine o’clock in the morning is much too early for that. 16 No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘In the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on my servants—men and women alike—
and they will prophesy.

I believe it would be contrary to the Word of God to quench the Spirits Fire where a woman is responding to the Holy Spirit in Church in accordance with Joel's Prophesy. Indeed we are severely warned in 1 Thessalonians 5:19:20 (Amplified Bible), “Do not quench (suppress or subdue) the [Holy] Spirit; do not spurn the gifts and utterances of the prophets [do not depreciate prophetic revelations nor despise inspired instruction or exhortation or warning]."

 

[Dreamer]

Calluna, I love you It would be very difficult Not to love you!

Actually....I was a bit angry...just a little...when I posted that stuff about puppetry and clowning....I guess....I can't understand why it is acceptable for me to preach in creative ways, but not directly. It seems to offend people if I open the bible and preach directly. It offends men especially. And if what the Word says to them as I speak convicts their heart, some have tended to blame their anger on me, as a woman, instead of being angry at God, for supplying us with His Holy Word!

I used to be quite bold back in the day---in my 30's. When I gave my heart to Christ, it was a true conversion, like Saul to Paul....people noticed right off that I was different, and there was no doubt in my mind, either. After Christ, I began walking with my shoulders straight, my eyes up off the floor, looking at people in the eyes, smiling!

I saw a sign on a church post this morning as I was taking my husband to work. It said, "Burdens Are Lifted At Calvary" I took a deep breath inward and thanked my God, because I truly know He does lift my burdens and is doing so even on this very day! But, to tell you the truth, when I was in my 20's....I was a foul-mouthed young lady---I put down everything with great sarcasm, everything that had to do with God, Jesus, and church. I was so hard and bitter. And I felt so unloved.

That church sign that inspired me so much this morning?....Just a mere 20 years ago....I would have outwardly mocked that sign with venemous words.

What changed me and converted me more than anything else was God's love. It is still unbelievable to me that He sent His own Son to die for me! I'll never get over that, and I don't want to become complacent about that!

I do feel and have always felt---since Feb. 17, 1991 that I am called by God to do special work for Him. I'm not supposed to be sitting on my laurels letting people pass by without telling them about Christ. I'm not even supposed to search out a job in which I cannot be free to tell others about Christ. I'm not making this up. God has His hand on me. And just because I happen to be a woman, I am not going to pass by opportunities to tell others about Christ's love. That would be sin! Jesus reigns.

P.S. I personally would not be comfortable taking any position where I was to lead or be over men
on a daily basis, because of certain scriptures which have already been quoted in this thread.
However, if any church ever offered me a position as a "Childrens Director" or "Womens'
Ministry Director", I would pray about it fervently, and if it was God's will, you betcha!
I'd love to be in the ministry full time. In fact, God promised me I would be in the ministry
full-time. So I know that time will come some day. Is God a liar? No! He cannot lie!

 

[stephen]

We have seen scripture being quoted for 'women to keep silent' and not to 'lord it over the man' etc. We love the scriptures. This is what separates the church from all other 'faiths'

However if I were to take the position that a women cannot be Pastor.....etc. I would be a hypocrite.

5 miles either side of my home I have women Pastors, and they are precious sisters too. On my left I see a lady taking on a church pioneer work in a downtown, difficult mining area, in a wooden hut, 25 years ago. Today I see a new purpose built edifice, seating 200, and a congregation of 40 folks, supporting the lady Pastor today, and also a young bible school graduate as Assistant Pastor. This lady has never married and without doubt is subject to the local region of Assemblies of God.

The other is a married lady. Subject to her husband at home I am sure, but Pastor of the Christian fellowship. Another pioneer work, now 10 years old and a congregation of 40 people.

No man would have taken on these situations. Well, none came forward.

The word 'Pastor' as I am sure you are aware, means shepherd. I have witnessed churches emptied, fellowships broken, people scattered, by men who could preach, they knew the book, indeed......but had no idea, or desire, how to Pastor. There interest lay elsewhere......££$$

When Paul said "the husband of one wife" etc. regarding Bishops. The converse may well have applied "the wife of one husband" because the issue was one of morality.

Paul was speaking to a specific culture. The Jewish culture. Keep your hat on lady, you are in subjection. MmMm

Deborah, in the old testament was a Judge of Israel......read about her exploits Judges 4 v 4 onwards. The song of Deborah ch 5. A mighty lady, and greatest person in the land. A women......indeed.

Romans ch 16 Paul gives tribute to helpers......MmMm Junia a lady Apostle....and other ladies also. My ministerial life is enriched

The West sends lady missionaries to the continents of India, Africa, S. America etc........There they pastor, minister to those in need. Build churches, gather congregations......and so on. When they come home...they are ..................

In Acts ch 18 Paul met a couple, Aquila and Priscila. Notice here that the man takes precedence....... Interesting to observe that in Romans ch 16 Paul gives Priscilla the lead......talking of Priscilla and Aquilla, the roles are reversed. Why? ..........the lady takes the lead?

As I said in a previous post, we are talking about "gifting" This is church. It is about gifting. About the Holy Spirit empowering His church.

"Leadership is Male" says D.Pawson Perish the thought.

Let us open our hearts to what Jesus wants to do in the world today.

Lord Jesus help us..........O God you alone can help your church

 

[jculver]

Frankly a person can make a lot of arguments about a lot of things, but in this case scripture is clear. Any excuse is just that, an excuse, no matter how lovely the results or etc. seem. You can point out what this women, or that women may have done, and that's all well and good, but it is outside of God's design. Clearly outside.

I'm not posting on this forum to argue with anybody, but at this point: I am not sure why this thread was posted. It is clear that your mind is made up. It's not like you are arguing with those posting in counter view, you are arguing with God. If the scripture was unclear I could understand a debate, but in an area so clear why obscure the issue? Just because it is "culturally" ok doesn't change anything in God's eyes.

God didn't declare this because women are somehow inferior mentally, but they are different by design. God designed men for some roles, and women for others. The talk about a "spirit being genderless" doesn't mean the person inhabited by the spirit becomes genderless. A marriage is a symbol of Christ to the church. That symbolism is used again and again. The believers are his bride; are we then to teach him?



On a final note, I can't say that it wouldn't be hard for me if I were a women who wanted to pastor. Honestly it would seem like a waste for God not to use a person in such a way, but I know that his way is better, he knows more, in fact he knows everything. So though it may seem incorrect to us for so many reasons, God is always right, he is just plain wiser, just knows more, just understands better. Women do things that men can't, and men things that women can't. Out of speculation I think that possibly God would forbid a "stay at home dad" as much as he would a woman pastor. Even if the Father was gifted at raising children and etc. A woman was God's choice for cultivating a Godly offspring and family. Different by divine design. God's design is always beautiful when we follow it no matter how dark the tunnel may seem. God Bless you all.

 

[DunkedinFire]

"Leadership is Male" says D.Pawson Perish the thought.

Let us open our hearts to what Jesus wants to do in the world today.

Lord Jesus help us..........O God you alone can help your church

I actually agree with what you are expounding Stephen. Perhaps you can help me here; does Scripture tell us that a Pastor is "Leadership" or a "Servant"?

It appears to me that you may not have read Pawsons "Leadership is Male". David accepts woman as Pastors where a man is proven to be Spiritually ineffective or unwilling.

David is on record as having had a conversation with a Vicar who had heard him preach on this subject. The Vicar asked David why his congregation consisted mostly of old women. David suggested that was because there was, effectively, one in the pulpit.

Think, prayerfully, about that.