Wrath vs Love

[B-A-C]

ὀργή
orgē
or-gay'
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
Total KJV occurrences: 36

This word is translated as "wrath" several times in the new testament.
The "wrath of God" is mentioned over 150 times in the Bible. Over 30 times in the new testament.

John the Baptist warns the Pharisees about the wrath of God (Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7; )

John 3:36; is worded interestingly.

John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The first half of the verse says "believes" in the Son. The second half of the verse says "obey" the Son.
Uusally people like to separate this verse and just quote the first half. But it says if we don't obey the
Son... the "wrath" of God abides on us.

Rom 1:18; For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:8; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 3:5; But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)

Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Rom 13:4; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Rom 13:5; Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

Eph 5:6; Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6; For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,

Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This isn't a complete list... I don't even think it is half of the verses in the New Testament that talk about God's wrath. But the point here is... The Bible says many will face the wrath of God.

Mat 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

It seems the majority of people will face the wrath of God.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

So the question is.... does God love these people? You often hear God's love is unconditional.
Yet there are a few verses like John 15:10; that seem to have a condition for God's love to remain on us.

Even if God does love them... will that love save them?
For example Romans 8 says...

Rom 8:35; Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So OK.... nothing separates us from the love of God (except possibly sin)... but even if this is true.
The Love of God is not the Salvation of God. God loves even sinners. Even un-saved sinners.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

No one was a Christian before Jesus came and died.... but yet God sent Jesus to die for us before we were Christians.

Just because God loves someone... doesn't mean they are saved from His wrath.

 

[KingJ]

Good post BAC.

I was assuming halfway that you were going to say God does hate some....100 page thread discussion / debate avoided :wink:.

I don't believe we can contrast Love vs Wrath with God. God is love 1 John 4:8.

So, Love dishes out wrath to the wicked John 3:19 and mercy and acceptance into heaven for those that hate what is wicked Rom 12:9.

One point that your post does make crystal clear as quoted in Rom 2. Is that being in God's good or bad books is not dependent on us choosing god A over god B. It is our unrighteousness. We receive God's wrath when we choose to stay and be unrighteous and receive God's acceptance when we don't. Maybe its just me but I find that fact interesting. We are after God's heart when we choose to hate what is wicked. We reject God, not by saying '''we reject God'' but our actions tell God that we reject Him.

God is 100% aligned to 'being' and upholding what is good and right Psalm 145:17-21 17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. 18 The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. 19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them. 20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. 21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the Lord: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.

 

[KingJ]

This probably goes without saying, but it is worthwhile mentioning: If God punishes the wicked, He is not wicked.

The fact that His wrath is on the wicked is truly good news for those that hate wickedness.

People who don't know God do believe His wrath will be on good people. They believe and are taught that the fault / error in judgement is with God. We know the devil is behind this kind of miss-information. But if only they would read scripture and apply some lateral thought.

I guess many of us choose to believe what we want as we can't all accept the truth.

I think to myself about the thoughts going through the mind of a wicked person when experiencing a plague from God. As is to come soon in the tribulation. Surely then they will have zero doubt that God has this plague on them because He is upset with their wickedness. If God feels the need to go that level to get through to some people, it makes perfect sense why we battle convincing some.

 

[D_Martin]

ὀργή
orgē
or-gay'
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
Total KJV occurrences: 36

This word is translated as "wrath" several times in the new testament.
The "wrath of God" is mentioned over 150 times in the Bible. Over 30 times in the new testament.

John the Baptist warns the Pharisees about the wrath of God (Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7; )

John 3:36; is worded interestingly.

John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The first half of the verse says "believes" in the Son. The second half of the verse says "obey" the Son.
Uusally people like to separate this verse and just quote the first half. But it says if we don't obey the
Son... the "wrath" of God abides on us.

Rom 1:18; For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:8; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 3:5; But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)

Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Rom 13:4; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Rom 13:5; Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

Eph 5:6; Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6; For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,

Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This isn't a complete list... I don't even think it is half of the verses in the New Testament that talk about God's wrath. But the point here is... The Bible says many will face the wrath of God.

Mat 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

It seems the majority of people will face the wrath of God.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

So the question is.... does God love these people? You often hear God's love is unconditional.
Yet there are a few verses like John 15:10; that seem to have a condition for God's love to remain on us.

Even if God does love them... will that love save them?
For example Romans 8 says...

Rom 8:35; Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So OK.... nothing separates us from the love of God (except possibly sin)... but even if this is true.
The Love of God is not the Salvation of God. God loves even sinners. Even un-saved sinners.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

No one was a Christian before Jesus came and died.... but yet God sent Jesus to die for us before we were Christians.

Just because God loves someone... doesn't mean they are saved from His wrath.

since there is such a thing as the "wrath of God" then how can that be a result of God's love?

God hates He actually hates. the same source you use here states God hates:

Exo_20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Deu_12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu_16:22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.



*************
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
*******************

Mal_1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Mal_2:16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.




what should be understood is flesh and the life in this flesh is irrelevant to the Almighty its the spirits that anger Him. and flesh is dirt and water its the spirit that's the life within. even the soul is dead already without the Holy Spirit.


wrath is a result of anger and anger is the result of denied fulfillment of expectations, and you can bet as sure as there is a God in Heaven that the Lord God hates the fulfillment of His expectations to be denied by something He made.


what is His expectations of the world you may ask:
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

hence the restoration in the world of His expectations being fulfilled in Jesus Christ His Beloved Son in whom He is well pleased, this is the world He loves through His Son Jesus Christ, and not through Adam.

God didn't wipe out all man except 8 in the flood because He loved all mankind. the warning by the prophets of event to come in the "day of the Lord" isn't an expression of God's love for this world, its for the world to come through His Beloved Son. therefore He so loved the world that He sent His Son. the only world to be an everlasting world is through His Son.

its simple if the Almighty sees you through His Beloved Son because you are born of His Spirit and have received the same life Jesus gave, then you are Beloved in His sight, otherwise you are not beloved.

and to teach and preach otherwise is an abomination.

 

[KingJ]

God hates He actually hates. the same source you use here states God hates:

Exo_20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Deu_12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu_16:22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

*************
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
*******************
what should be understood is flesh and the life in this flesh is irrelevant to the Almighty its the spirits that anger Him. and flesh is dirt and water its the spirit that's the life within. even the soul is dead already without the Holy Spirit.

wrath is a result of anger and anger is the result of denied fulfillment of expectations, and you can bet as sure as there is a God in Heaven that the Lord God hates the fulfillment of His expectations to be denied by something He made.

hence the restoration in the world of His expectations being fulfilled in Jesus Christ His Beloved Son in whom He is well pleased, this is the world He loves through His Son Jesus Christ, and not through Adam.

God didn't wipe out all man except 8 in the flood because He loved all mankind. the warning by the prophets of event to come in the "day of the Lord" isn't an expression of God's love for this world, its for the world to come through His Beloved Son. therefore He so loved the world that He sent His Son. the only world to be an everlasting world is through His Son.

its simple if the Almighty sees you through His Beloved Son because you are born of His Spirit and have received the same life Jesus gave, then you are Beloved in His sight, otherwise you are not beloved.

and to teach and preach otherwise is an abomination.

God hates sin, not the person. A proud look is sin, not a person. A wicked imagination is a sin, not a person. False witness, speaking lies, sowing discord are sins.

Mal_1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
.

This is the only verse that says God hated a person. I have no idea how you feel it fits in with the other verses. By including it you have basically said God is wicked. God chose to, for no reason at all, completely hate Esau. The context is that Easu was not chosen, not that God hated Esau. Before you say you disagree, please convince me how God is impartial with your interpretation.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings B-A-C ,

John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The first half of the verse says "believes" in the Son. The second half of the verse says "obey" the Son.
Uusally people like to separate this verse and just quote the first half. But it says if we don't obey the
Son... the "wrath" of God abides on us.

Interesting that you jumped from talkng about the KJV to then using a different version/translation for this verse which, as you know, words it differently and can give it a completely different meaning, depending on what one wants to put forward.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

I note that as it comes as if part of foundation of your post, the rest both following and resting upon it which also brings up the question of the relationship between 'believe' and 'obey' that we might need to grasp, for our good and to the glory of God in Jesus Christ the Lord

The Love of God is not the Salvation of God. God loves even sinners. Even un-saved sinners.

That ye may be the children of your Father Which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45


may I add...

A man breeds/keeps sheep. Some have in the tens of thousands, some only a handful but whatever the number and I think the greater makes more significance to our topic, and out of those sheep, only one or two might ever be 'breeders' or stud rams. Does he ever despise any of the others? Not usually because he understands that it's only ever a small fraction that are 'spotless' so to speak.

Because the ones that don't 'make it' to the showgrounds or the breeding program fall short of the standard he is looking for, does his wrath abide on them?
Yes and no.
He doesn't cuss them out and take out a machine gun against them. But, they miss out and therefore do not receive his blessings in his will for what is his purpose.
Not receiving the blessing is as receiving the wrath. Can't have both and there are no places in between.

Thankfully we have a choice and the ability to be obedient, to hear and listen and do as the Lord has spoken and it is not simply our genetics and other mishaps that hinder us.

Let us choose this day Whom we will serve.


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

He doesn't cuss them out and take out a machine gun against them. But, they miss out and therefore do not receive his blessings in his will for what is his purpose.
Not receiving the blessing is as receiving the wrath. Can't have both and there are no places in between.

You may be right... but even so... they are still slaughtered for lamb chops at the end of the day.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Matt 3:10; "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

You may be right... but even so... they are still slaughtered for lamb chops at the end of the day.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

another way of explaining it might be to consider a writer...

he writes many pages, which are all his workmanship.
As he gets his book ready for publication, he goes through the many pages and finds he needs to renew some parts and hence writes new pages that will remain.
He discards the ones that were not perfect for his book.

(back in the old day, not all that long ago!) he throws those pages that were not fitting for his book into the fire, where they burn.
His fire is always burning (remember the old days? fire chuffing away day and night keeping the water hot, the kettle always on the hob, simmering away, the mornings warm and with a quick tease, and a bit more wood, it would be on its way again for breakfast!)

Those pages are forever burnt... in the fire that never goes out.
Those pages did not enter the book and one might suggest, did not have the author's blessing. No hatred as we might consider hatred with carnal minds, but no keeping and preservation, no 'forever in print', no existence. They were not of any value and the writer knew that and hence cast them into the wrath of the flames.

I know that this is not 'perfect' as an illustration, but do you get the idea?


Bless you ....><>