Dismiss Hell and You Dismiss Jesus

[Truthcomber]

Me: These thought they were lost.

Ezk 3:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


Me: This includes Matt 3:11

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Isa 1:26 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin: 26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city. 27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Me God will melt away the sins of all. He is a consuming fire. The incorrigible shall be cleaned at the end by that fire, the lake of fire, a gigantic trial. Being in the presence of the lamb who is pure will clean them. This will be a ghastly experience for the unpure.

 

[Truthcomber]

David M

Please reconcile these verses with Matthew 25:46,41

 

[Br. Bear]

@Truthcomber
Greetings,

you may have muddled the facts here

Me: You have only two choices here whom Christ will confess before his father, (1) the speaker or (2) the recipient. I say it is the speaker that the Messiah will confess before his father. You say it is the recipient.<--- ???

Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32

But whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:9

But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.
Matthew 10:33

And now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming.
1John 2:28

is it really?


Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32

Greeting @Truthcomber

according to Jesus it is not in vain...

Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32

-----------------------------------------

so, [please excuse my ignorance] what has this [next bit quoted of yours] got to do with what i was sharing on this thread?
I still have no idea as to why you included those Scriptures that this response of yours is about.
It appears that you are keen to make a point and if that is so, so be it, but please do take the time to see that your response misses my queries.

You quoted this scripture by me:
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

My response:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Me: This is how you understand scripture, by putting the verses together with the help of the holy spirit. I had added in quotation ( this is referring to one who is confessing Christ before men, not necessarily those who hear the confession),
Tell me, what is the difference if I had presented this comment after 1 Cor 2:9 instead of in the content of the scripture. I put it in the body of the scripture where it pertains to for more clarity.

Isa: 28 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept; line upon line, line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Me: Paradoxically, his is also how you do not understand scriptures. You cannot put the verses together with understanding, even if it is shown to you. The princes, including the religious leaders, are of the noble and wise of the world. Most will not understand (receive) the word of God, nor can unless God reveals it to them.

2 Tim 3: 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Me: Point is, no matter what station in life you are at, if God doesn’t reveal his word to you, you will not understand it.

-----------------------------------------

So, I ask you again, who do you think Christ is going to reveal to the father, the speaker or the recipient? This is a simple question. Tell me which one.

???

Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32

But whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:9

But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.
Matthew 10:33

And now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming.
1John 2:28

Bless you ....><>

 

[Dave M]

Regarding the parable Jesus told in Luke about Lazarus and the rich man, when the rich man's soul was in Hades it says he was tormented by the flame and wanted Lazarus to give him a drop of water for his tongue. So does the soul feel heat and thirst?

Scripture gives us very little detail about the experience of living in Hades (or the Lake of Fire), but we know that the experience involves continual torment (Luke 16:23, Rev 14:11) with sulphuric fire and intense heat (Matt 3:12, Rev 14:10, Luke 16:24).
We also know those who experience Hades do so in spirit form only, since the physical body does not pass into the eternal realm but returns to dust (see 1Cor 15). Apparently, Hell is capable of tormenting spirits in a way similar to how physical bodies experience suffering, though this is only an assumption. While we do not have a firm understanding of how this will be, nevertheless we can know from Scripture that it will happen.

Does a soul feel physical pain in Hell? | Verse By Verse Ministry International

www.versebyverseministry.org

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Truthcomber,

Me God will melt away the sins of all. He is a consuming fire. The incorrigible shall be cleaned at the end by that fire, the lake of fire, a gigantic trial. Being in the presence of the lamb who is pure will clean them. This will be a ghastly experience for the unpure.

what is this? God will melt away the sins of all. ??
I was fairly sure that the Blood of Jesus has washed sin away, has it not?

"This will be a ghastly experience for the unpure." but worth it, surely, if at the end of their trials they inherit eternal life? If you spread this word enough, they will endure with great hope, knowing that it will be worth the suffering. Yet, those who suffer for righteousness sake instead of for wickedness? IE "for my Names sake"
I suppose the reward makes up for it?
Sort of like... we all get to go on holidays but you naughty children have to ride in the back and can't have any pop or candy.

Is there something wrong with my prognosis, doctor?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again Truthcomber,

Me God will melt away the sins of all. He is a consuming fire. The incorrigible shall be cleaned at the end by that fire, the lake of fire, a gigantic trial. Being in the presence of the lamb who is pure will clean them. This will be a ghastly experience for the unpure.

so, they will be cleansed? Surely you are mistaken.
From what you are proposing, with this false teaching that you have found some interest in, they won't even need faith.

You are also suggesting that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not enough and the 'eternal' fire of a quick [compared to eternity] cleaning fire supersedes and replaces His atonement for those who believe?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Dave M]

1 Timothy 6:3-5
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.


Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

 

[Dave M]

so, they will be cleansed? Surely you are mistaken.
From what you are proposing, with this false teaching that you have found some interest in, they won't even need faith.

You are also suggesting that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not enough and the 'eternal' fire of a quick [compared to eternity] cleaning fire supersedes and replaces His atonement for those who believe?

thank you for pointing this out dear brother, this scripture comes to mind

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

 

[Butch5]

The truth is that the oldest and most reliable biblical manuscripts include Christ’s explicit statements about Hell. The gospel writers didn’t make up their Lord’s words in the gospels. They simply recorded them. And the hyper-careful scribes didn’t add them to the manuscripts, they simply copied them, word for word, from one to another.

The truth is that Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in all of Scripture. (Because of its importance, I devoted a chapter of my book If God Is Good to the subject of Hell.) Jesus referred to Hell as a real place and described it in graphic terms (see Matthew 10:28; 13:40–42; Mark 9:43–48). He spoke of a fire that burns but doesn’t consume, an undying worm that eats away at the damned, and a lonely and foreboding darkness.

Christ says the unsaved “will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12). Jesus taught that an unbridgeable chasm separates the wicked in Hell from the righteous in paradise. The wicked suffer terribly, remain conscious, retain their desires and memories, long for relief, cannot find comfort, cannot leave their torment, and have no hope (see Luke 16:19–3 1).

Dismiss Hell and You Dismiss Jesus - Blog - Eternal Perspective Ministries

Actually, to be accurate we should define what you mean by Hell. From what I see above it appears you're defining Hell as a place of eternal conscious torment. If that is the case this is incorrect. That concept isn't found in Scripture. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna.

 

[Hekuran]

Actually, to be accurate we should define what you mean by Hell. From what I see above it appears you're defining Hell as a place of eternal conscious torment. If that is the case this is incorrect. That concept isn't found in Scripture. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna.

I think that's fair. Dismiss hell and you dismiss Jesus; misunderstand hell and you misunderstand Jesus.

So, what did Jesus have in mind when teaching about hell? Good Bible teachers have arrived at very different conclusions, so we ought to tread carefully.

 

[Butch5]

I think that's fair. Dismiss hell and you dismiss Jesus; misunderstand hell and you misunderstand Jesus.

So, what did Jesus have in mind when teaching about hell? Good Bible teachers have arrived at very different conclusions, so we ought to tread carefully.

When the OP speaks of dismissing Hell, is it "his" definition of Hell? One is only dismissing Jesus if they are dismissing what He said. Jesus didn't use the word Hell, it's an English word. He used the word Gehenna when He spoke of where the wicked would go. Gehenna is a valley located outside of Jerusalem.

 

[Dave M]

Jesus didn't use the word Hell,

I guess it depends on what version you look at, but either case, it seems to line up with a place of eternal punishement
hell.
γεέννῃ (geennē)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 1067: Of Hebrew origin; valley of Hinnom; ge-henna, a valley of Jerusalem, used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment.



New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

New Living Translation
“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

English Standard Version
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Study Bible
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Literal Bible
And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

 

[Butch5]

I guess it depends on what version you look at, but either case, it seems to line up with a place of eternal punishement
hell.
γεέννῃ (geennē)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 1067: Of Hebrew origin; valley of Hinnom; ge-henna, a valley of Jerusalem, used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment.



New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

New Living Translation
“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

English Standard Version
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Study Bible
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Literal Bible
And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

But Gehenna is not a place of eternal torment. In Mark 9 Jesus said,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:1
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk. 9:43-48 KJV)

In this passage "Hell" is Gehenna. Jesus is quoting from an Old Testament passage in Isaiah.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa. 66:22-24 KJV)

Notice what is burning in Gehenna. It's not souls or spirits, it's corpses, corpses of men. So, when Jesus talks about people burning in Gehenna, it's not conscious people, or souls, or spirits, it's dead bodies. So Gehenna is a valley on earth outside of Jerusalem where the bodies will burn.

We also know that it's not eternal conscious torment because Jeremiah tells us that the land that is Gehenna will one day be made holy to the Lord.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:40 KJV)

Another reason we know it's not eternal is because man is not eternal. Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. The gift of God, eternal life, is promised to the believer not the unbeliever.

 

[Dave M]

Another reason we know it's not eternal is because man is not eternal. Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. The gift of God, eternal life, is promised to the believer not the unbeliever.

we are eternal creatures, our bodies the flesh is what dies, are spirits either go to eternal punishment or eternal life.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



not sure if you actually suggesting that unbelievers just perish and cease to exist?? is that what your saying??

make no mistake Jesus explains the weeds will be thrown in a fire and their will be gnashing of teeth and weeping , if they were immediately destroyed they would not have time to gnash there teeth or weep they would be gone

Matthew 13 ;40-42
40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

He who has ears,f let him hear.

 

[Butch5]

we are eternal creatures, our bodies the flesh is what dies, are spirits either go to eternal punishment or eternal life.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



not sure if you actually suggesting that unbelievers just perish and cease to exist?? is that what your saying??

We're not eternal beings. The Scriptures are clear that man was created from the dust of the earth Gen2:7. God then breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. Here we have, that body, spirit, and soul. The body and the breath, or spirit, combine to form the soul. When a man dies God's breath or spirit returns to Him and the man, the body, returns to the dust. When the breath or spirit leaves the body the soul no longer exists as one of the components is gone. The spirit is part of God. The man, the body returns to the dust. There is nothing left to live on.

Also, as I said in the last post. Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality. Yes, I am saying that when man dies he ceases to exist.

[quotw]make no mistake Jesus explains the weeds will be thrown in a fire and their will be gnashing of teeth and weeping , if they were immediately destroyed they would not have time to gnash there teeth or weep they would be gone

Matthew 13 ;40-42
40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

He who has ears,f let him hear.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe you're misunderstanding this passage. However, I would submit that if one is thrown into fire there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Dave M]

The body and the breath, or spirit, combine to form the soul. When a man dies God's breath or spirit returns to Him and the man, the body, returns to the dust. When the breath or spirit leaves the body the soul no longer exists as one of the components is gone. The spirit is part of God. The man, the body returns to the dust. There is nothing left to live on.

completely un-biblical my freind
I see you dont seem to use much scripture to back up what your saying, so here is the truth
when a believer dies to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

 

[Butch5]

completely un-biblical my freind
I see you dont seem to use much scripture to back up what your saying, so here is the truth
when a believer dies to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Actually, it is Biblical. What isn't is what you're claiming. First;y, 2 Cor 5:8 doesn't use the word "is".

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)

He said he's rather willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He's not saying if you're out this state you're in another. He's simply expressing a desire. However, the body here is the body of Christ. He's expressing a desire to be with Christ. However, if you read this passage in context rather than pulling it from the context it becomes clear that Paul is talking about the Resurrection. Not an intermediate state. Not only that, but the idea that you're espousing is the same that the Greeks held. In Greek mythology the goal was to escape the body as they considered it a prison of the soul. Their goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens to the ultimate god. In the passage you quoted Paul flatly refutes this idea.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)

Here Paul speaks of two states corruptible and incorruptible. Notice in verse 2 Paul says we groan desiring to be clothed upon. The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means to put on over. Like one would put on a coat over their clothes. He says we groan to be overclothed so that we shall not be found naked. Being found naked is the Greek concept of leaving the body and ascending through the heavens. Remember, at the end of his first letter to the Corinthians he chastised them because some were doubting the Resurrection. Then in verse 4 we see it clearly. For in this tabernacle we groan, or in this state, corruptible we groan, being burdened, not that we would be unclothed, the Greek concept, but overclothed, that mortality might be swallowed of life. The whole concept here is that mortality our corruptible nature might be swallowed up of life. It's that the corruptible might put on incorruptibly. This is what Paul is talking about in verse 8 when he says,

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)

He's saying we'd rather be absent from this corruptible state and present in the incorruptible. While people are in a corruptible state, they are not with Christ. In the Resurrection when believers are made incorruptible they will be with Christ. This it why it's so imperative that Scripture be kept in context. From the context we see that not only does this passage not support the idea of a disembodied consciousness, Paul says it's not what the Christian hopes for.

However, we know that Paul didn't believe that people were alive after they died.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

Here Paul is speaking of believers who had died and says that if there is no resurrection they had perished. He doesn't say they are in Heaven or they are with God or Jesus. He says if there is no resurrection they'd perished, they're gone. This passage flatly refutes the Greek idea of a disembodied consciousness.


I gave you Scripture. If you've written on this I would think you'd already have considered the Scriptures on this. However, I can lay it out if need be. In Gen 2:7 We're told how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here we see that God created man from the dust of the earth. So, whatever, man is, he consists of the elements of the ground. This is also confirmed in Gen 3.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

God told Adam he was dust and would return to the dust. So we see man is dust. In Gen 2:7 it says that God breathed in to the man the breath or spirit, same word, of life. So, God breathed something of Himself into the man. Then it says the man became a living soul. So we see a transformation in the man. God's breath changed him from mere dust to a living being. Thus we see a soul is a living being consisting of the man, the dust of the earth, and the breath of God. We also see from Scripture what happens to a man when he dies.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.1
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?1 (Eccl. 3:18-21 KJV)

We see here that when a man dies it's no different from the animals. all return to dust. They all have on or the same breath or spirit of life. The breath or spirit in man goes upward. We're told in Ecc 12 that the breath or spirit returns to God who gave it.

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:6-7 KJV)

We saw in Gen 2:7 that that breath or spirit is the breath of spirit of life that God breathed into Adam. We saw that the soul consists of two elements, the body and the breath or spirit of life from God. When a man dies the breath or spirit of life from God returns to Him and the body returns to the dust. The elements that form the soul have separated therefore the soul no longer exists. So, we can see from this that there is nothing left of man to live on after death. All of the elements of man are accounted for.

You claim that man is an eternal being but Paul said that the Father alone has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Your claim also runs counter to Scripture. In order for someone to be tormented forever, they would have to live forever. The promise in the Gospel is eternal life. What need is there for eternal life if people are already eternal? The position you hold would have to change the Gospel to say that the gift of God is to live in a different location than the wicked. We have Jesus's words. He didn't say for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes can live in a different place than the wicked. He said it was so that they could have eternal life and not perish. Notice, the contrast, life and perish. We see the same with Paul. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. Again, the contrast is life or perish. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Again perish. Nowhere in Scripture do we find God threatening eternal conscious torment as the penalty for sin. It's just not there.

This idea of eternal conscious torment is supported by a handful of Scripture passages taken out of context and a poor translation of the Greek word "aion" Add to that that the KVJ translates three different words as hell and we've got confusion.

 

[Dave M]

In Jesus own words he describes the horror of hell for the non believers he is agaony in a everlasting hell fire that is constant torment, this is exactly what Jesus is teaching in this parable apparently this type of spiritual fire goes on forever adn you can not escape it by death. Why do people think we are living a life that has no consequences, the way you live now will effect if you are punished forever or rewarded forever A just God punishes and rewards, if people were punished and just destroyed they could live with no consequences,

V=24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

The Rich Man and Lazarus
(John 5:39-47)
19Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor.
20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried.
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer.
26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

 

[Butch5]

In Jesus own words he describes the horror of hell for the non believers he is agaony in a everlasting hell fire that is constant torment, this is exactly what Jesus is teaching in this parable apparently this type of spiritual fire goes on forever adn you can not escape it by death. Why do people think we are living a life that has no consequences, the way you live now will effect if you are punished forever or rewarded forever A just God punishes and rewards, if people were punished and just destroyed they could live with no consequences,

V=24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

The Rich Man and Lazarus
(John 5:39-47)
19Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor.
20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried.
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer.
26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

This parable is not about an afterlife. It's a judgment against the leadership of Israel. Firstly notice that Jesus is talking to the Scribes and Pharisees.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matt. 13:10-15 KJV)

Jesus spoke to them in parables that hearing the would hear and not understand. This would tell us that the most plain understanding of the text isn't what Jesus meant. The Scribes and Pharisees would be able to understand the most plain understanding. Yet, the weren't supposed to. To claim this is an actual event proves troublesome. Firstly, Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, the Rich Man is in Hades. Hades is the grave. It's not a place of fire. So why is the Rich Man suffering in flames? Note that the Rich Man is an Israelite. Notice that the Rich Man has five brothers, Levi had five brothers. Levi is the man from which the tribe of Levi came. The Levites. The Levites are the ones who were the priests. These were the ones in leadership in Israel. So, the Rich Man represents the leadership of Israel. But why is he suffering in flames. Hades is not a place of fire. However, there is a passage in Deuteronomy that speaks of a fire burning in Hades. This passage is about Israel.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:15-22 KJV)

This passage is part of the song of Moses and would be familiar to the Priesthood. We can see from this that the fire is God's anger and He says it will burn to the lowest Hell or Hades. The Rich Man is suffering God's anger. The Priesthood would shortly suffer God's anger when they crucified Christ. We're also told that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. Purple was the color kings. While Israel didn't have a king proper, the priesthood did fill that roll. The priests also wore fine linen. Notice too that the Rich man wanted Lazarus sent to warn his brothers. What does Abraham say? They have Moses and the Prophets. How would Moses and the Prophets keep the Rich Man's brothers from ending up where he was? The answer was in Moses and the Prophets. They had missed it. Notice too that the Rich Man was unable to get any relief because there was a great chasm between them that couldn't be crossed. Jesus was warning them of the coming judgment. When they crucified Him God left the Temple and sent the Romans in to destroy it. It hasn't been rebuilt. The priesthood has been exiled for a time that God had determined and they can get no relief until that time is fulfilled.

There are also a lot of problems if we try to say this is an actual event One of the problems is that all three men that are mentioned have body parts. According to popular belief bodies don't go into eternal torment, that supposedly souls and or spirits. Yet we see bodies. However, we do find bodies in the grave. Hades is the grave. Again, Hades is not where Jesus said the wicked would be cast. That was Gehenna. Another problem is that there is a great gulf between them yet they're chatting with one another. There's quite a but more that could be said on this passage but this should be enough for starters.