Why Choose the Church over the Bible

[Bill]

Bill, you've done just what the OP is addressing. You've taken several passages from which you've drawn an inference in an attempt to support church doctrine. None of these passages says anyone goes to Heaven when they die. So, you've taken church doctrine over the Scriptures. My question in the OP is why? Why do you choose church doctrine over the Scriptures?

How is that church doctrine unless it's not in your scripture? Every passage I stated comes from the scripture itself.

Luke 23:43 indeed I promise you, he replied, today you will be with me in Paradise.

2 Kings 2:11 now as they walked on, talking as they went, a chariot of fire appeared and Horses of fire, coming between the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Jude 1:9 not even the Archangel michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse.

Enoch taken to heaven Hebrews 11:5 it was because of his faith that Enoch was taken up and did not have to experience death. He was not to be found because God had taken him. This was because before his assumption it is attested that he had pleased god. Now it is impossible to please God without faith, since anyone who comes to him (God) must believe that he exists and rewards those who try to find him.

Jesus with Moses and Elijah Matt 17:1-3 6 days later Jesus Took with him Peter and James and his brother John and let them high up a mountain where they could be alone. They're in their presence he was transfigured. His face shown like the sun and his clothes became as white as light. Suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared to them they were talking with him (Jesus).
Mark 9:2-4 6 days later, Jesus Took with him Peter and James and John and led them up a high mountain where they would be alone by themselves. They're in their presence was he was transfigured, his clothes became dazzlingly White. Whiter than any Earthly bleacher could make them. Elijah appeared to them with Moses and they were talking with jesus.
Luke 9:28-31 he took with him Peter and John and James and one up the mountain to pray. As he prayed the aspect of his face was changed and his clothing became brilliant as lightning. Suddenly there were two men there talking with him they were Moses and Elijah, appearing in glory.

Jesus talking about the last judgment.
Matthew 25:31-46 just from the last line it reads. I tell you solemnly, insofar as you neglected to do it to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me. And they will go away to Eternal punishment and The Virtuous to eternal life .

The prayer Jesus taught us to say, the Our Father.
Matthew 6:9 Father in heaven

So here I've proven that all of these passages are from the scripture and not something from a church.

So what are you trying to tell me Butch5 ? That none of these passages tell us that we are going to heaven and that no one can go to heaven. A little foolish don't you think on that premise?

 

[Bill]

The thief went into his grave where he still is and will be until Judgment Day.
Moses's body was buried somewhere only GOD knows to prevent anyone making it a shrine.
Moses and Elijah were just materialisations as Satan performs to make UFOs, Bigfoots, spooks etc.
When you die you will go into your grave or crematorium furnace until Judgment Day.
GOD is in heaven and Jesus is right beside him but no man can go there.

Where it the doo doo emoji

 

[KingJ]

Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which the incompetent lack the skills and cognitive abilities to recognize their own inability. Learn how it works.

www.verywellmind.com

This is a cop out and more evidence of vanity. You remind me of our other member who claimed he had 165 IQ and that we were not qualified to debate him.

I have discussed with atheists for years. I have heard this kind of cop out many times. The reality is that you 'think' that by using 'fancy' words, trying to sound 'smart' or Googling the 'Dunning Kruger effect', it helps better your argument. Sometimes it does, mostly it does not.

I have presented you with painfully true, rational and logical arguments that every person on this planet with a working brain will conclude and agree with. You are living on your own cloud and appearing to have a strong case of ostrich syndrome. Come into the light and defend your beliefs with rational arguments. Start with ''No, KingJ, God is not evil because of A, B and C''.

In the last thread you were cringe with your 'premise' argument. Thinking my original line and premise was an 'argument' to your 'sub premise'. I have not discussed with someone like you in a while. I can count 4-5 attempts like this from you to keep face. You really seem unable and unwilling to deal with the accusations of your belief.

 

[KingJ]

Scripture is very clear about how we are to handle those who persist in false teaching after being corrected. While we are called to be patient and speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15), we are also warned not to endlessly engage with those who reject sound doctrine and continue to promote error.

Titus 3:10–11 instructs, "As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." This shows that after making efforts to correct, there comes a point when separation is the biblical response.

Similarly, Romans 16:17 says, "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them." And 2 John 1:10–11 adds, "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."

Engaging repeatedly with someone who dismisses correction and continues to spread falsehood not only becomes unfruitful, but according to Scripture, may actually implicate us in their sin if we give them a platform or credibility. We are not called to endlessly argue but to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3) and then, if rejected, to separate ourselves from those who prove themselves to be enemies of the truth.

In light of this, choosing not to fellowship with or continue interacting with someone who has consistently rejected truth is not unloving—it is obedience to God’s Word.

So, I agree and disagree with this.

In part, yes, @BUTCH is not defending his belief that other believers are calling heretical. We are providing scripture and rational arguments. He is evading our scriptures and not responding to the rational arguments.

But on the other hand, Butch is not an evil or wicked person. I believe he honestly believes his belief is scriptural and that he is blind to what it insinuates and how it misrepresents God.

I take issue with him on only the three beliefs I mentioned. There are other 'Christians' and members here that have much more shocking beliefs.

Example:

1. We have resident Calvinists

Imagine teaching the lost that God loves and died for that He does not love and did not die for all of them.

2. We have a majority of people who believe God will torture people in hell.

Imagine teaching that God sit a top a list of the most evil Beings to ever live. Annihilationism is most certainly a better belief than this.

See poll here - What to expect in hell

----------------------

If we had to put on ignore all who disagree with us we would have nobody to talk to. We need to better discern enemies from confused brethren.

 

[Rxlx]

Where it the doo doo emoji

probably all over your face

you need to grow up.

 

[Rxlx]

This is a cop out and more evidence of vanity. You remind me of our other member who claimed he had 165 IQ and that we were not qualified to debate him.

I have discussed with atheists for years. I have heard this kind of cop out many times. The reality is that you 'think' that by using 'fancy' words, trying to sound 'smart' or Googling the 'Dunning Kruger effect', it helps better your argument. Sometimes it does, mostly it does not.

I have presented you with painfully true, rational and logical arguments that every person on this planet with a working brain will conclude and agree with. You are living on your own cloud and appearing to have a strong case of ostrich syndrome. Come into the light and defend your beliefs with rational arguments. Start with ''No, KingJ, God is not evil because of A, B and C''.

In the last thread you were cringe with your 'premise' argument. Thinking my original line and premise was an 'argument' to your 'sub premise'. I have not discussed with someone like you in a while. I can count 4-5 attempts like this from you to keep face. You really seem unable and unwilling to deal with the accusations of your belief.

You are a perfect example of D-K by your poor performance in Gospel.
What is an example of a dunning-kruger?
'If you've ever dealt with someone whose performance stinks, and they're not only clueless that their performance stinks but they're confident that their performance is good, you likely saw the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action.'

 

[Garee]

I would suggest Christ as Emanuel who worked in the Son of man, Jesus made the disciples as fishers of men if they follow the Son of man Jesus who is following the Holy Father.

The invisible, faithful eternal things of God made visible through the Son of man, Jesus.

 

[bdavidc]

So, I agree and disagree with this.

While it is true that we should seek to be discerning and gracious toward those who are genuinely confused or growing in understanding, Scripture draws a clear line between those who are sincerely seeking truth and those who persist in false teaching after being corrected. The issue is not whether someone seems "nice" or "honest" in their intentions—Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and intentions do not sanctify error.

The Bible is not a suggestion or a starting point for personal interpretation based on what we feel is more palatable or emotionally acceptable. It is the authoritative, God-breathed Word (2 Timothy 3:16), and those who twist it to suit their own views are not merely "confused brethren," but false teachers. Peter warns that such people distort Scripture "to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). If someone is confronted with clear biblical teaching and chooses to reject it in favor of a man-made belief, they are no longer walking in the truth but opposing it. In that case, Scripture is not ambiguous—it commands us to have nothing more to do with them (Titus 3:10–11).

We are not to determine fellowship based on how many others we disagree with or how shocking someone else’s beliefs may seem, but rather on the foundation of truth. If someone denies the truth of God's Word and reshapes it into something it does not say, they are not a Christian, regardless of how sincerely they hold their views. They are promoting a lie and presenting a false god. That is not confusion—it is rebellion. And God calls us not to extend fellowship to those who persist in such rebellion, lest we share in their works (2 John 1:10–11).

True love discerns. It warns. It separates when needed. Continuing fellowship with those who distort the gospel is not love—it is disobedience.

I did not ask for your advice, and frankly, your response reflects a troubling pattern: choosing parts of Scripture that suit your preferences while ignoring the clear commands of God. That is not honoring the Word—it is reshaping it to fit your own ideas. And with your chosen username, KingJ, let me remind you that you are not a king, and I am not one of your subjects. I do not answer to you. I follow the truth of God’s Word as it is written, not as I wish it to be. I will give an account to God for how I upheld His truth, and so will you. On the Day of Judgment, your tone or intentions will not matter—what will matter is whether you were filled with the Holy Spirit, walking in the truth, or fashioning a god of your own making. Those who have the Spirit of God know the truth and do not twist it to serve their own image.

The reason I am posting on this message board is because it bears the name of Jesus—not the name of idol worship. If this space were simply about creating and promoting your own version of God, I would have no part in it. But as long as the name of Christ is attached to it, I will speak the truth of His Word without compromise. People who do not yet know Jesus may come here seeking to understand who He is and what it means to follow Him. When they are met instead with false teaching—twisting Scripture and reshaping God into something more palatable—they are not being drawn to the true Christ but to a counterfeit. If falsehood is what dominates, then this no longer serves as a place for Christ’s message but becomes a platform for deception. That is why it must be confronted.

Whoever owns and moderates this message board needs to seriously consider what they are allowing to be done in the name of Jesus. When His name is attached to something, there is a responsibility to uphold His truth, not to provide a platform for twisting it. Promoting or tolerating false teaching under the banner of Christ is not neutral—it is dangerous. Those in positions of oversight will also give an account to God for what they permitted in His name.

Matthew 18:6
"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

Galatians 1:8–9
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

2 Peter 2:1–3
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you… bringing in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

James 3:1
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."

Romans 16:17–18
"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive."

2 Corinthians 11:13–15
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ… Their end will correspond to their deeds."

Jude 1:4
"For certain people have crept in unnoticed… ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

Revelation 2:20–23
"But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel… who is teaching and seducing my servants… I will throw her onto a sickbed… and I will strike her children dead."

Titus 1:10–11
"For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers… They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach."

1 Timothy 4:1–2
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons…"

 

[bdavidc]

See poll here - What to expect in hell

See the truth here: Is Hell Really Endless?

 

[Dylan569]

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.” He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luk 23:42-43 NRSVue

I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— was caught up into paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
2Co 12:2-4 NRSVue

The apostle Paul, not baseless Church doctrine, indicates that paradise and heaven are synonymous. Jesus assured the one beside him on the cross, that he would be that very day with him in paradise.

For we know that, if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens...So we are always confident, even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2Co 5:1, 6-8 NRSVue

Those who know the basics of interpretation, understand that you have to read verses, statements in the scripture, in their context. Also, it is common knowledge among students of the Bible, that comparing scripture with scripture is required. With that in mind, check 4 passages:

"The Pharisees heard the crowd muttering such things about him, and the chief priests and Pharisees sent temple police to arrest him. Jesus then said, 'I will be with you a little while longer, and then I am going to him who sent me. You will search for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.'” (John 7:32-34 NRSV) *The "you" is clearly referring to the Christ-rejectors, the unbelieving Jews.

Jesus made clear that the Christ rejecting, Jewish leaders will not be able to go to heaven. Then in the next chapter -

"Then they said to him, 'Where is your Father?' Jesus answered, 'You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.' He spoke these words while he was teaching in the treasury of the temple, but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come. Again he said to them, 'I am going away, and you will search for me, but you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.'” (John 8:19-21 NRSV) *Those who reject Christ will die in their sins.

Jesus again told the Christ rejecting Jews that they will die in their sins and cannot go where he is going, which is heaven. But later Jesus is addressing a different group of people -

"Little children, I am with you only a little longer. You will look for me; and as I said to the Jews so now I say to you, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.' Simon Peter said to him, 'Lord, where are you going?' Jesus answered, 'Where I am going, you cannot follow me now; but you will follow afterward.'” (John 13:33-36 NRSV)

Jesus is speaking to his disciples, the elect, those who are believing and he calls them "Little children". Between that first statement "Where I am going, you cannot come" and the second statement "Where I am going, you cannot follow me NOW; but you will FOLLOW AFTERWARD" is the period of spreading the gospel, making disciples of all nations, and then at some point apostles and the elect will die and then FOLLOW AFTERWARD, to heaven where they will be with their Lord.

That is taking the explicit statements of Jesus, and reading them IN CONTEXT. There is a difference when Jesus is speaking to the Christ-rejecting Jews; and when he is speaking to his disciples, those believing in him.

"In Isaiah chapter 55, the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, is speaking, v5; and He says:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there until they have watered the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isa 55:10-11 NRSV)

If I am giving God's word as written, I believe it is a sure principle and guarantee that God the Holy Spirit will apply it to the elect, and they will believe. I believe it is best this way, ignoring those who either are ignorant of hermeneutics, or are lacking in reading comprehension or maybe are wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Rhema]

There was no bible before the 1500s the printing press had not been invented it was preached orally and a piece of scripture would make the rounds once and a while not a bible.

Who ever in their right mind taught you that? Please, I beg you, dispel that lie. They did you grave harm and a complete disservice. People had writing even back during the time of Moses, you know.

The list of 27 books in the order that compose the New Testament of today was first published by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria Egypt in the year 367 AD. The first Synod to approve this list as canon was the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa in the year 393 AD; and confirmed by the Synod of Carthage in 397 AD.

As far back as the year 70 AD, the Apostle Thomas, who founded the (Assyrian) Church of the East in the Parthian Empire, had a Bible. We know this because at his death in the year 72 AD, no longer having the apostle to approve additions, the church closed their canon, which omits five books that were listed by Athanasius. One cannot close the canon of the Bible if one doesn't have a Bible.

And manuscript evidence proves the existence of a complete Bible back to the 4th century AD - well before the 1500's.

The great uncial codices or four great uncials are the only remaining uncial codices that contain (or originally contained) the entire text of the Bible (Old and New Testament) in Greek. They are the Codex Vaticanus in the Vatican Library, the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Alexandrinus in the British Library, and the Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus in the Bibliothèque nationale de France in Paris.​

- LINK

The Roman Emperor Constantine the First even commanded fifty Bibles to be published in the year 331 AD. (One cannot publish a Bible if one does not have a Bible.)

Fifty Bibles of Constantine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And need I direct you toward Jerome's Vulgate?

Granted, the churches of Paul did not have the four gospel books, as they hadn't been written yet, but we do see that most all of the New Testament texts made it to India by 70 AD. But look at what Paul himself commanded:

And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.​

- Colossians 4:16 KJV

I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.​

- 1 Thessalonians 5:27 KJV

Now if it's your contention that printed Bibles had no printing errors, while written manuscripts were riddled with copyist errors, I can assure you that printed versions (such as the Wicked Bible) had many errors in their own right. But to claim that there was no bible before the 1500s because the printing press had not been invented is absurd.

If nothing else, just go ask your priest.

In the peace and truth of the Lord,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

These beliefs that have existed for so long have survived scrutiny.

Buddhist belief is older. Perhaps you should become Buddhist if longevity is your criterion. Oddly enough, Christianity was rejected in the Roman Empire because it was new, and Christians were called atheists because they did not believe in the gods.

God has given each of us working brains and five senses.

And yet... I have seven physical senses. (I'll omit the snide comments for the sake of @Christ4Ever )

What of those who have better working brains?

It is not in any well established church doctrines because it is a very silly theory.

Since it's obvious that the OP mentioned this in passing as an example only, I'll not specifically engage on this topic here.

HOWEVER...

A. 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Where does God live? A - Shanghai? B - New York? C- Heaven?

Your question is silly. And I've address this before. Why are you unable to learn? You should at least add Jerusalem to your list. (Or D - none of the above. )

Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.​

- Psalms 135:21 KJV

However...

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.​

- Psalms 139:7-10 KJV

God lives everywhere. (I've got a feeling that's what Omnipresence means.)

In addition, 2 Cor. 5:8 does not say heaven. Ergo, you have added in words. In addition, you have changed words, in that the text does not say "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord." The word confident actually means "to exercise courage" and willing indicates "to find pleasure in" an idea. This verse does not establish a doctrinal truth.

As such, you've made yourself the perfect example of what @Butch5 is speaking of. People who make up religious fictions when their (possibly not working all that well) brain strays from what is written.

In peace,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

The apostle Paul, not baseless Church doctrine, indicates that paradise and heaven are synonymous.

NO.
No he didn't.

This is a perfect example of not reading what is actually written. If anything, Paul indicates that paradise was synonymous with the THIRD heaven. (Whatever the heck that is.)

For we know that, if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens...

So why did Paul say "heavens" PLURAL? Might you address that? (YOU, not Gill.)

One for Jews? One for rich people? One for Buddhists? One where all dogs go? How many heavens are there? Just three?

Thanks kindly,
Rhema

And Paradise just means an "enclosed park" or garden. But it also could mean a "stupid fellow."

 

[Rhema]

I have not read your post, and I am tired of your lies and false teachings. You are only here to derail meaningful conversations. I have placed you on ignore.

The typical Christian Ostrich.

 

[Rhema]

bdavidc's, kingj and many other's presence on this message board serves only to stir up strife and divert attention from the clear truths of Scripture.

(I feel left out.... )

 

[Rhema]

The level of fallciaousness is profound.

Well... Blind is BLIND. A profound inability to see.

I thought to "like" your post, and then saw that two people who literally suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect "liked" it.

So... what to do, brother? What to do?

And in those days there was no king in Israel; every man did that which was right in his own eyes.​

- Judges 17:6 Brenton

 

[Rhema]

I would like to have a serious discussion as to why Christians choose Church doctrine over the Scriptures.

Well Butch, that went sideways really fast, didn't it.

To address your OP, I would suggest that the human heart (the fallen human heart), has an overwhelming drive/desire to belong. This is why the practice of "dis-fellowship" is so effective in cults like the JWs and Mormons, and ever so present in the continued Catholic-Protestant conflict. You might find the Philadelphia Bible Riots (LINK) to be an interesting read. It didn't matter that neither side actually ever read the Bible, they just wanted the version of the group to whom they belonged to be validated.

The Catholics were also behind the removal of the Bible from the US public school system in the 60's. But by then, of course, the Parochial (Catholic) School system was in place.

In addition, your mention of the Dunning-Kruger Effect is also a cause célèbre for the embrace of Church Doctrine. Unlike those suffering from DKE, many people realize they don't have either the necessary critical thinking skills or the necessary education to make a substantive decision about what scripture means, and so seek solace from a group of people who declare themselves to have figured it out, whether it be a convocation of Bishops, or a "simple pastor" who suffers from such an advanced case of NPD that each and every word uttered is replete with Convincing Speech, based upon an internal nearly-divine belief that they absolutely know they are always RIGHT. (It would be interesting to see the overlap of DKE with NPD.)

While the Need to Belong comes from the Fall, the Need to Be RIGHT is cultivated in the American School System (and I have no reason to believe otherwise about the rest of the world).

In his book How Children Fail (LINK) John Holt describes the classroom "biome" that worships the "right" answer (like having five physical senses), and rarely cultivates the skills necessary for critical thinking. Rather, school indoctrinates the kids into playing the game of "AnswerLand." The teacher always has the right answer, one must seek that right answer, and one is constantly tested to show that the teacher is always right. If nothing else, I would encourage everyone to read the synopsis of the book from the link I provided above. I had four children go through the exact same elementary school system, and every two years had to go in and educate their classroom teacher (2nd or 3rd grade I don't remember) why the answer "Five" is wrong. And while each time the same teacher truly agreed with me, she just could NOT bring herself to change what was taught because of AUTHORITY.

And to be clear, your OP is about Ecclesiastical Authority, the second most important Doctrine after that of Soteriolgy.

(Rabbit trail warning...) From what I've seen, the Christian Church has three major divisions based upon the two most important doctrines - that of Soteriology and Ecclesiastical Authority; and these would be the Catholic Church (whether Roman or Orthodox), the Protestant Church (having a myriad of denominations typically bolstered by a seminary), and the Pentecostal Church (a very loose collection of personages who have had true supernatural experiences, but not necessarily the intelligence to link these with the appropriate scriptural passages).

Over the centuries, Ecclesiastical Authority for the Catholic has always been vested in the Church Fathers (the living ones more so than the dead ones, even if what they wrote was later declared to be scripture). When Martin Luther sought to remove the Ecclesiastical Authority of the Pope, he had nothing left but the Bible. Hence Sola Scriptura was born. But in translating the Bible into German, his purpose wasn't so that each and every man could read the Bible for himself and then decide what was true, but rather that the common folk could read the Bible (in German) and SEE that he, Martin Luther, was RIGHT. Luther's Big Mistake was that he just could not conceive that anybody else could arrive at a different conclusion than he about what scripture meant. This, of course, led to the Protestant Heresy of every Tom, **** and Stupid making up their own truths by being left to their own interpretation machine (their brain) when reading the Bible (and typically a poorly translated Bible at that). With the Pentecostal Church, I am truly vexed. There are some with whom the Holy Spirit literally talks. But what to do when this same Holy Spirit (supposedly) teaches different things to different people? I'm tempted to say "I am perplexed," but I doubt that anyone would comprehend the reference.

One last comment about why a person would be more inclined to succumb to church doctrine rather than scripture, is that Martin Luther changed the nature of Salvation to "Being Right" as opposed to "Sacramental Participation" or even "Being Loving." This would mean that when a person does read what is actually written, and does have a brain to see that it conflicts with the traditional doctrines of their church, then what? One is faced with the very real possibility that one just might not be saved !! And that's just scary. To avoid this, it's easier to deny the truth that is written all along the page and say, well I must be reading this wrong, and instead seek the comfort of a salvation that was given them by their church and church doctrine. In a way, this hearkens back to the book "How Children Fail" because the school system cultivates an unease about not knowing (the right answer). Not many people are comfortable with saying I don't know and that's okay.

I was hoping you'd get a bit more substantive answers from the peanut gallery, but I shall need to remain comfortable with being disappointed.

Rhema

I don't know and that's okay
My priest will tell me anyway
Sound off,
One two....

 

[Rhema]

Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which the incompetent lack the skills and cognitive abilities to recognize their own inability. Learn how it works.

www.verywellmind.com

The problem with stupid people is that they're too stupid to know they're stupid?

(I'd make millions on the poster.)

 

[KingJ]

The problem with stupid people is that they're too stupid to know they're stupid?

(I'd make millions on the poster.)

This card that you (165IQ) and @BUTCH (DK accusation) like to play is nothing more than an attempt to keep face when you find yourself in a hole with nowhere to go.

If any of you were able to provide logical, rational, point form rebuttals, I might not be lmao at the irony of this .

Your replies are mostly:

1. Moving goal posts
2. Much ado about nothing emotional rants
3. Clear evasion, ostrich syndrome level
4. Rabbit trails

It seems you *three have never done an exam. Question 1A, 1B, 1C, Answer 1A, 1B, 1C.

You guys remind me of those kids who troll exam questions. ''Maths question - Find x in the equation''. You proceed to draw a line to the middle of the page where you created a treasure chest.

 

[Garee]

This is a cop out and more evidence of vanity. You remind me of our other member who claimed he had 165 IQ and that we were not qualified to debate him.

I have discussed with atheists for years. I have heard this kind of cop out many times. The reality is that you 'think' that by using 'fancy' words, trying to sound 'smart' or Googling the 'Dunning Kruger effect', it helps better your argument. Sometimes it does, mostly it does not.

I have presented you with painfully true, rational and logical arguments that every person on this planet with a working brain will conclude and agree with. You are living on your own cloud and appearing to have a strong case of ostrich syndrome. Come into the light and defend your beliefs with rational arguments. Start with ''No, KingJ, God is not evil because of A, B and C''.

In the last thread you were cringe with your 'premise' argument. Thinking my original line and premise was an 'argument' to your 'sub premise'. I have not discussed with someone like you in a while. I can count 4-5 attempts like this from you to keep face. You really seem unable and unwilling to deal with the accusations of your belief.

Discuss with an atheist hat has no knowledge of God that serves the wisdom of this world?

How is rightly dividing the two kinds of wisdom a cop out?

The wisdom that comes from above is not of us. Christ in us to both give to us his understanding as knowledge.

The Dunning-Kruger effect can be compared to a childish bias children smarter than Parents. No fool like an old fool. Low-ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their capabilities.

Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.


Christ IQ is out of this world.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children