God's Word: Believe it, Reject it, or Explain why it does not mean what it says.

[Dylan569]

The translation used is the Revised English Bible of the UK, 1989: compare it to your KJV or.....

"It was not because you were more numerous than any other nation that the Lord cared for you and chose you, for you were the smallest of all nations; it was because the Lord loved you and stood by his oath to your forefathers, that he brought you out with his strong hand and redeemed you from the place of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Deut 7:7-8 REB)

"Know that it is not because of any merit of yours that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to occupy; indeed, you are a stubborn people." (Deut 9:6 REB)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never turn away. (John 6:37 REB)

"For you have made him sovereign over all mankind, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." (John 17:2 REB)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were overjoyed and thankfully acclaimed the word of the Lord, and those who were marked out for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 REB)

"yet, even before they were born, when they as yet had done nothing, whether good or ill, in order that the purpose of God, which is a matter of his choice, might stand firm, based not on human deeds but on the call of God, she was told, ‘The elder shall be servant to the younger'...Thus he not only shows mercy as he chooses, but also makes stubborn as he chooses. (Rom 9:11-12, 18 REB)

"But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display his retribution and to make his power known, can it be that he has with great patience tolerated vessels that were objects of retribution due for destruction, precisely in order to make known the full wealth of his glory on vessels that were objects of mercy, prepared from the first for glory? We are those objects of mercy, whom he has called from among Jews and Gentiles alike," (Rom 9:22-24 REB)

In just the same way at the present time a ‘remnant’ has come into being, chosen by the grace of God. But if it is by grace, then it does not rest on deeds, or grace would cease to be grace...Very well: they were lopped off for lack of faith, and by faith you hold your place. Put away your pride, and be on your guard; (Rom 11:5-6, 20 REB)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has conferred on us in Christ every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. Before the foundation of the world he chose us in Christ to be his people, to be without blemish in his sight, to be full of love; and he predestined us to be adopted as his children through Jesus Christ. This was his will and pleasure in order that the glory of his gracious gift, so graciously conferred on us in his Beloved, might redound to his praise." (Eph 1:3-6 REB)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB)

"It is he who has brought us salvation and called us to a dedicated life, not for any merit of ours but for his own purpose and of his own grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity," (2Tim 1:9 REB)

"You were set free by Christ’s precious blood, blood like that of a lamb without mark or blemish. He was predestined before the foundation of the world, but in this last period of time he has been revealed for your sake." (1Pet 1:19-20 REB)

"The beast you saw was once alive, and is alive no longer, but has yet to ascend out of the abyss before going to be destroyed. All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world will be astonished to see the beast, which once was alive, and is alive no longer, and has still to appear." (Rev 17:8 REB)

"so is it with my word issuing from my mouth; it will not return to me empty without accomplishing my purpose and succeeding in the task for which I sent it." (Isa 55:11 REB)

 

[Dylan569]

The translation used is the Revised English Bible of the UK, 1989: compare it to your KJV or.....

"It was not because you were more numerous than any other nation that the Lord cared for you and chose you, for you were the smallest of all nations; it was because the Lord loved you and stood by his oath to your forefathers, that he brought you out with his strong hand and redeemed you from the place of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Deut 7:7-8 REB)

"Know that it is not because of any merit of yours that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to occupy; indeed, you are a stubborn people." (Deut 9:6 REB)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never turn away. (John 6:37 REB)

"For you have made him sovereign over all mankind, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." (John 17:2 REB)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were overjoyed and thankfully acclaimed the word of the Lord, and those who were marked out for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 REB)

"yet, even before they were born, when they as yet had done nothing, whether good or ill, in order that the purpose of God, which is a matter of his choice, might stand firm, based not on human deeds but on the call of God, she was told, ‘The elder shall be servant to the younger'...Thus he not only shows mercy as he chooses, but also makes stubborn as he chooses. (Rom 9:11-12, 18 REB)

"But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display his retribution and to make his power known, can it be that he has with great patience tolerated vessels that were objects of retribution due for destruction, precisely in order to make known the full wealth of his glory on vessels that were objects of mercy, prepared from the first for glory? We are those objects of mercy, whom he has called from among Jews and Gentiles alike," (Rom 9:22-24 REB)

In just the same way at the present time a ‘remnant’ has come into being, chosen by the grace of God. But if it is by grace, then it does not rest on deeds, or grace would cease to be grace...Very well: they were lopped off for lack of faith, and by faith you hold your place. Put away your pride, and be on your guard; (Rom 11:5-6, 20 REB)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has conferred on us in Christ every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. Before the foundation of the world he chose us in Christ to be his people, to be without blemish in his sight, to be full of love; and he predestined us to be adopted as his children through Jesus Christ. This was his will and pleasure in order that the glory of his gracious gift, so graciously conferred on us in his Beloved, might redound to his praise." (Eph 1:3-6 REB)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB)

"It is he who has brought us salvation and called us to a dedicated life, not for any merit of ours but for his own purpose and of his own grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity," (2Tim 1:9 REB)

"You were set free by Christ’s precious blood, blood like that of a lamb without mark or blemish. He was predestined before the foundation of the world, but in this last period of time he has been revealed for your sake." (1Pet 1:19-20 REB)

"The beast you saw was once alive, and is alive no longer, but has yet to ascend out of the abyss before going to be destroyed. All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world will be astonished to see the beast, which once was alive, and is alive no longer, and has still to appear." (Rev 17:8 REB)

"so is it with my word issuing from my mouth; it will not return to me empty without accomplishing my purpose and succeeding in the task for which I sent it." (Isa 55:11 REB)

In the OP I posted many scriptures that clearly teach unmerited election by God, depending on God's will and purpose alone. These irrefutable passages are indicating "predestination", which is the theological equivalent to God's sovereign election. There are scriptures that give the other side of the coin.

Scriptures indicating the rejection of some men

Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a town that made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon; all were taken in battle. For it was the LORD’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed and might receive no mercy but be exterminated, just as the LORD had commanded Moses. (Jos 11:18-20 NRSVue) *hardening their heart against God, and all remonstrances made unto them, it was but a righteous thing in God to give them up to the hardness of his heart, to deny them his grace, which only could soften it, and to leave him to the corruptions of their nature,

For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I may show my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (Rom 9:17-18 NRSVue)

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction, and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24 NRSVue)

and “A stone that makes them stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. (1Pe 2:8 NRSVue)

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble[KJV, evil] (Pro 16:4 NRSVue)

John Gill, (Baptist and Calvinist) comments on Pro 16:4:
"yea, even the wicked for the day of evil; this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory. It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice. "The day of evil", or "evil day", is the day of wrath and ruin, unto which wicked men are reserved by the appointment of God, agreeably to the Targum, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions. This is true of wicked angels, wicked men, and particularly of that wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition, antichrist; the word here used is in the singular number."

There has been through the centuries the debate of single predestination versus double predestination. There are no scriptures with the same emphasis of predestination of men to hell, but the argument seems to be based more on logic, rather than express statements of scripture. If some are predestined to go to glory, others by the same decree must have had those going to hell equally predestined. In the 1644 First London Confession of Faith, they emphasize a single predestination view, those not elected or chosen, are merely left in their sins.

1644 First London Confession of Faith
"III. And touching his creature man, God had in Christ before the foundation of the world, according to the good pleasure of his will, foreordained some men to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of his grace, leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his Justice."

In the 1646 Revised Edition, the reasoning for double predestination is given, but put into brackets, seeming to indicate it is based on logic, not express statements of scripture.

1646 Revised First London Confession of faith
"III. And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; [having foreordained and] leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice."

 

[Butch5]

In the OP I posted many scriptures that clearly teach unmerited election by God, depending on God's will and purpose alone. These irrefutable passages are indicating "predestination", which is the theological equivalent to God's sovereign election. There are scriptures that give the other side of the coin.

Scriptures indicating the rejection of some men

Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a town that made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon; all were taken in battle. For it was the LORD’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed and might receive no mercy but be exterminated, just as the LORD had commanded Moses. (Jos 11:18-20 NRSVue) *hardening their heart against God, and all remonstrances made unto them, it was but a righteous thing in God to give them up to the hardness of his heart, to deny them his grace, which only could soften it, and to leave him to the corruptions of their nature,

For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I may show my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (Rom 9:17-18 NRSVue)

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction, and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24 NRSVue)

and “A stone that makes them stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. (1Pe 2:8 NRSVue)

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble[KJV, evil] (Pro 16:4 NRSVue)

John Gill, (Baptist and Calvinist) comments on Pro 16:4:
"yea, even the wicked for the day of evil; this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory. It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice. "The day of evil", or "evil day", is the day of wrath and ruin, unto which wicked men are reserved by the appointment of God, agreeably to the Targum, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions. This is true of wicked angels, wicked men, and particularly of that wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition, antichrist; the word here used is in the singular number."

There has been through the centuries the debate of single predestination versus double predestination. There are no scriptures with the same emphasis of predestination of men to hell, but the argument seems to be based more on logic, rather than express statements of scripture. If some are predestined to go to glory, others by the same decree must have had those going to hell equally predestined. In the 1644 First London Confession of Faith, they emphasize a single predestination view, those not elected or chosen, are merely left in their sins.

1644 First London Confession of Faith
"III. And touching his creature man, God had in Christ before the foundation of the world, according to the good pleasure of his will, foreordained some men to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of his grace, leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his Justice."

In the 1646 Revised Edition, the reasoning for double predestination is given, but put into brackets, seeming to indicate it is based on logic, not express statements of scripture.

1646 Revised First London Confession of faith
"III. And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; [having foreordained and] leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice."

Can you make your case for Calvinism if you put all of those passages back into their context? It's not hard to support jut about anything if we rip Scripture from it's context. One could claim salvation is by works and grab this passage.

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James Version, Heb 5:9.

There you salvation by works.

To take a handful of passages, rip them from their context and ignore the rest of the 66 books proves absolutely nothing.

 

[Butch5]

The translation used is the Revised English Bible of the UK, 1989: compare it to your KJV or.....

"It was not because you were more numerous than any other nation that the Lord cared for you and chose you, for you were the smallest of all nations; it was because the Lord loved you and stood by his oath to your forefathers, that he brought you out with his strong hand and redeemed you from the place of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Deut 7:7-8 REB)

"Know that it is not because of any merit of yours that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to occupy; indeed, you are a stubborn people." (Deut 9:6 REB)

Both of these passages are addressed to Israel. Is every single Israelite going to be saved?

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never turn away. (John 6:37 REB)

"For you have made him sovereign over all mankind, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." (John 17:2 REB)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were overjoyed and thankfully acclaimed the word of the Lord, and those who were marked out for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 REB)

Let's look at this in context.

42 And having gone forth out of the synagogue of the Jews, the nations were calling upon them that on the next sabbath these sayings may be spoken to them, 43and the synagogue having been dismissed, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes did follow Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were persuading them to remain in the grace of God. 44And on the coming sabbath, almost all the city was gathered together to hear the word of God, 45and the Jews having seen the multitudes, were filled with zeal, and did contradict the things spoken by Paul—contradicting and speaking evil. 46And speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, ‘To you it was necessary that first the word of God be spoken, and seeing ye do thrust it away, and do not judge yourselves worthy of the life age-during, lo, we do turn to the nations; 47for so hath the Lord commanded us: I have set thee for a light of nations—for thy being for salvation unto the end of the earth.’ 48And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997), Ac 13:42–48.

Two things here. One, are there two different ways to salvation? Do the Jews get to choose but the Gentiles don't. Paul clearly states that the Jews rejected the word of God and judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. So according to Paul the rejection was their own doing. They had the opportunity and rejected it. The other is the reordering of the text. In the Greek text belief comes before being appointed to eternal life.

"yet, even before they were born, when they as yet had done nothing, whether good or ill, in order that the purpose of God, which is a matter of his choice, might stand firm, based not on human deeds but on the call of God, she was told, ‘The elder shall be servant to the younger'...Thus he not only shows mercy as he chooses, but also makes stubborn as he chooses. (Rom 9:11-12, 18 REB)

"But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display his retribution and to make his power known, can it be that he has with great patience tolerated vessels that were objects of retribution due for destruction, precisely in order to make known the full wealth of his glory on vessels that were objects of mercy, prepared from the first for glory? We are those objects of mercy, whom he has called from among Jews and Gentiles alike," (Rom 9:22-24 REB)

In just the same way at the present time a ‘remnant’ has come into being, chosen by the grace of God. But if it is by grace, then it does not rest on deeds, or grace would cease to be grace...Very well: they were lopped off for lack of faith, and by faith you hold your place. Put away your pride, and be on your guard; (Rom 11:5-6, 20 REB)

In each of these passages Paul is addressing the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome. So, yes, the Jews were God's chosen people. But, again, is every single Israelite saved?

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has conferred on us in Christ every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. Before the foundation of the world he chose us in Christ to be his people, to be without blemish in his sight, to be full of love; and he predestined us to be adopted as his children through Jesus Christ. This was his will and pleasure in order that the glory of his gracious gift, so graciously conferred on us in his Beloved, might redound to his praise." (Eph 1:3-6 REB)

This passage is part of a Hebraism. Paul is giving praise to God for what He has done for Israel. So, this passage is speaking of Israel.

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB)

Let's get a more accurate and unbiased translation.

13 And we—we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth, 14to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997), 2 Th 2:13–14.

They were called "Through" Paul's good news. As we saw in Acts 13 the choosing is done by the individual. What's from the beginning is the method of salvation.

"It is he who has brought us salvation and called us to a dedicated life, not for any merit of ours but for his own purpose and of his own grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity," (2Tim 1:9 REB)

Let's look at the context.

6 For which cause I remind thee to stir up the gift of God that is in thee through the putting on of my hands, 7for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind; 8therefore thou mayest not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but do thou suffer evil along with the good news according to the power of God, 9who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages, 10and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news,

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation, 2 Ti 1:6–10.

In this passage Paul is talking about himself and Timothy. This has nothing to do with other people.

"You were set free by Christ’s precious blood, blood like that of a lamb without mark or blemish. He was predestined before the foundation of the world, but in this last period of time he has been revealed for your sake." (1Pet 1:19-20 REB)

This passage says nothing about the predestination of man.

"The beast you saw was once alive, and is alive no longer, but has yet to ascend out of the abyss before going to be destroyed. All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world will be astonished to see the beast, which once was alive, and is alive no longer, and has still to appear." (Rev 17:8 REB)

8 ‘The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation, Re 17:8.

In the passage we have two clauses that can be attached to "since the foundation of the world." One is. the names written and the other is, the book of life. We know that the book of life is from the foundation of the word. That the phrase from the foundation of the world can be attached to either phrase and be grammatically correct the passage can't be used to prove your point. Moses spoke of this book also. However, John has mentioned this book previously.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Re 13:5–8.

Here we see it's the book of the Lamb and that it was the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.

"so is it with my word issuing from my mouth; it will not return to me empty without accomplishing my purpose and succeeding in the task for which I sent it." (Isa 55:11 REB)

This says nothing about Predestination.

.

 

[Dylan569]

Both of these passages are addressed to Israel. Is every single Israelite going to be saved?



Let's look at this in context.

42 And having gone forth out of the synagogue of the Jews, the nations were calling upon them that on the next sabbath these sayings may be spoken to them, 43and the synagogue having been dismissed, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes did follow Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were persuading them to remain in the grace of God. 44And on the coming sabbath, almost all the city was gathered together to hear the word of God, 45and the Jews having seen the multitudes, were filled with zeal, and did contradict the things spoken by Paul—contradicting and speaking evil. 46And speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, ‘To you it was necessary that first the word of God be spoken, and seeing ye do thrust it away, and do not judge yourselves worthy of the life age-during, lo, we do turn to the nations; 47for so hath the Lord commanded us: I have set thee for a light of nations—for thy being for salvation unto the end of the earth.’ 48And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997), Ac 13:42–48.

Two things here. One, are there two different ways to salvation? Do the Jews get to choose but the Gentiles don't. Paul clearly states that the Jews rejected the word of God and judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. So according to Paul the rejection was their own doing. They had the opportunity and rejected it. The other is the reordering of the text. In the Greek text belief comes before being appointed to eternal life.

In each of these passages Paul is addressing the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome. So, yes, the Jews were God's chosen people. But, again, is every single Israelite saved?


This passage is part of a Hebraism. Paul is giving praise to God for what He has done for Israel. So, this passage is speaking of Israel.

Let's get a more accurate and unbiased translation.

13 And we—we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth, 14to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997), 2 Th 2:13–14.

They were called "Through" Paul's good news. As we saw in Acts 13 the choosing is done by the individual. What's from the beginning is the method of salvation.

Let's look at the context.

6 For which cause I remind thee to stir up the gift of God that is in thee through the putting on of my hands, 7for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind; 8therefore thou mayest not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but do thou suffer evil along with the good news according to the power of God, 9who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages, 10and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news,

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation, 2 Ti 1:6–10.

In this passage Paul is talking about himself and Timothy. This has nothing to do with other people.

This passage says nothing about the predestination of man.

8 ‘The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation, Re 17:8.

In the passage we have two clauses that can be attached to "since the foundation of the world." One is. the names written and the other is, the book of life. We know that the book of life is from the foundation of the word. That the phrase from the foundation of the world can be attached to either phrase and be grammatically correct the passage can't be used to prove your point. Moses spoke of this book also. However, John has mentioned this book previously.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Re 13:5–8.

Here we see it's the book of the Lamb and that it was the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.

This says nothing about Predestination.

.

Butch, biblical literacy isn't a requirement for opinion—but it certainly helps with credibility. The time you spend posting would be better spent studying from actual Bible scholars:

Comprehensive Overview of the Bible Commentaries available FREELY on StudyLight.org!

StudyLight.org provides the most extensive list of quality online Bible commentaries freely available on the Internet.

www.studylight.org

 

[Butch5]

Butch, biblical literacy isn't a requirement for opinion—but it certainly helps with credibility. The time you spend posting would be better spent studying from actual Bible scholars:

Comprehensive Overview of the Bible Commentaries available FREELY on StudyLight.org!

StudyLight.org provides the most extensive list of quality online Bible commentaries freely available on the Internet.

www.studylight.org

Why should I study scholars when I can study Scripture? Christianity today is an echo chamber. The scholars all parrot one another. All you have to do is look at what they say and then look at early church history. The two are vastly different. That begs the question, who is correct, the guys who were there or the guys trying to figure out what happened 1900 years later? My money is on the guys who were there. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they probably knew better what was going on than today's scholars.

But, if you want to talk about Bibilical literacy we can. If the scholars are Biblically literate why are four of the church's main doctrines not Biblical?

How can one be Biblically literate and draw unbiblical conclusions?

If the scholars are Biblically literate how come they're all over the place? Finding two scholars that are in total agreement is like searching for a needle in haystack. Why is that? If they're Biblcially literate they should all be on the same page.

 

[Rhema]

If the scholars are Biblically literate how come they're all over the place? Finding two scholars that are in total agreement is like searching for a needle in haystack. Why is that? If they're Biblcially literate they should all be on the same page.

Their definitional framework differs.

Case in point, as I understand @Rxlx, the word "Nations" means the Ten Lost Tribbles of Israel. To others it means Gentiles.

Like it or not, everyone is dependent upon the scholarship of the translation team of their favorite English (or otherwise) translation. And when given sufficient reason to show that a preferred rendering is wrong, the discussion turns into an existential war of tooth and claw (thanks to Martin Luther - who redefined salvation as believing the RIGHT Doctrines).

@Dylan569

The time you spend posting would be better spent studying from actual Bible scholars:

Would you consider Bart Ehrman to be an actual Bible scholar? What of James Tabor?

Dare I ask about Daniel Wallace?

Agape,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

If the scholars are Biblically literate why are four of the church's main doctrines not Biblical?

I know about Trinity, and Penal Atonement. Can't quite figure out your other two. Ecclesiastical Authority? Biblical Inerrancy?

Thanks,
Rhema
(Been a tough week...)

 

[Dylan569]

Their definitional framework differs.

Case in point, as I understand @Rxlx, the word "Nations" means the Ten Lost Tribbles of Israel. To others it means Gentiles.

Like it or not, everyone is dependent upon the scholarship of the translation team of their favorite English (or otherwise) translation. And when given sufficient reason to show that a preferred rendering is wrong, the discussion turns into an existential war of tooth and claw (thanks to Martin Luther - who redefined salvation as believing the RIGHT Doctrines).

@Dylan569


Would you consider Bart Ehrman to be an actual Bible scholar? What of James Tabor?

Dare I ask about Daniel Wallace?

Agape,
Rhema

I do NOT consider Bart Ehrman a competent Bible scholar because of his writing -

"I did my very best to hold on to my faith that the Bible was the inspired word of God with no mistakes and that lasted for about two years [...] I realized that at the time we had over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, and no two of them are exactly alike. The scribes were changing them, sometimes in big ways, but lots of times in little ways. And it finally occurred to me that if I really thought that God had inspired this text [...] If he went to the trouble of inspiring the text, why didn't he go to the trouble of preserving the text? Why did he allow scribes to change it?"

"He subsequently turned into a liberal Christian, remaining in the Episcopal Church for 15 years, but later became an agnostic atheist after struggling with the philosophical problems of evil and suffering"

I consider James Tabor to be an unregenerate crackpot

"In 2006 Tabor published The Jesus Dynasty, which interprets Jesus as an apocalyptic Messiah whose extended family founded a royal dynasty in the days before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The form of Christianity that grew out of this movement, led by the apostle Paul, was, according to Tabor, a decisive break with the Ebionite-like original teachings of John the Baptist and Jesus."

Bert Jan Lietaert Peerbolte from the Theological University of Kampen writing in the Society of Biblical Literature Review of Biblical Literature (June 2007) was highly critical of the book saying,

"Some books are written to spread knowledge, others to generate controversy. This book falls into the latter category. In his Jesus Dynasty James Tabor presents a reconstruction of the Jesus movement from a perspective that purports to be a neutral view at the facts. Unfortunately, Tabor’s view is not neutral and his ‘facts’ are not facts."

I do consider Daniel Baird Wallace an excellent Bible scholar, but that DOES NOT mean I would agree with everything he believed or taught. I keep in mind his connection to Dallas Theological Seminary.

I'd never heard of Bart Ehrman or James Tabor before, for understandable reasons, I do not follow after heretics. So, I used Wikipedia to see who they are. Daniel Baird Wallace I was familiar with and I do pay attention to this thinking on many things. I find an article of his online that is very good - Fifteen Myths about Bible Translation

 

[Rhema]

the Theological University of Kampen

Is that like having a medical degree from Trinidad?

 

[Rhema]

I do NOT consider Bart Ehrman a competent Bible scholar because of his writing -

So you wouldn't consider Bruce Metzger to be competent either?

 

[Butch5]

Their definitional framework differs.

Case in point, as I understand @Rxlx, the word "Nations" means the Ten Lost Tribbles of Israel. To others it means Gentiles.

Like it or not, everyone is dependent upon the scholarship of the translation team of their favorite English (or otherwise) translation. And when given sufficient reason to show that a preferred rendering is wrong, the discussion turns into an existential war of tooth and claw (thanks to Martin Luther - who redefined salvation as believing the RIGHT Doctrines).

@Dylan569


Would you consider Bart Ehrman to be an actual Bible scholar? What of James Tabor?

Dare I ask about Daniel Wallace?

Agape,
Rhema

I agree! It's sad that it's come to this

 

[Butch5]

I know about Trinity, and Penal Atonement. Can't quite figure out your other two. Ecclesiastical Authority? Biblical Inerrancy?

Thanks,
Rhema
(Been a tough week...)

Actually I hadn't included Penal Aronement in that list. That would make 5 of the doctrines unbiblical. The others are, the "Heavenly Desriny" doctrine, the "Immortal Soul" doctrine, and the "Eternal Conscious Torment" doctrine. One has to wonder how the Biblical scholars are wrong on these.

 

[Rhema]

I do consider Daniel Baird Wallace an excellent Bible scholar, but that DOES NOT mean I would agree with everything he believed or taught. I keep in mind his connection to Dallas Theological Seminary.

So guilt by association, then.

I'd never heard of Bart Ehrman or James Tabor before, for understandable reasons, I do not follow after heretics.

Sounds rather insular. One ought to be dialed in to the social-religious climate in order to have any real impact on the world. Dr. Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus had been on the NYT best seller list - imagine that, a book on NT Textual Criticism having such a status.

While I disagree with the conclusions drawn by Dr. Ehrman (he makes some mistakes), the factual content of the book ought to be addressed by every believer.

Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bibl…

For almost 1,500 years, the New Testament manuscripts w…

www.goodreads.com

I do not follow after heretics.

You mean like Gill?

Don't you realize that you're a heretic to the Orthodox Catholics?

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

One has to wonder how the Biblical scholars are wrong on these.

Same reasons as presented in your thread about Church tradition v. Scripture.

No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.​

- Luke 5:39 KJV

 

[Curtis]

Jer 17:5 Thus says the LORD: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.

 

[Rhema]

Jer 17:5 Thus says the LORD: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.

Curtis, who have you trusted for your translation?

 

[Curtis]

Curtis, who have you trusted for your translation?

Definitely not in any man.

 

[Curtis]

Curtis, who have you trusted for your translation?

Is the Bible inspired by man or God?

 

[Butch5]

Same reasons as presented in your thread about Church tradition v. Scripture.

No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.​

- Luke 5:39 KJV

Agreed!