144,000

[lentz]

Greetings, Brother Chad, in the precious name of Jesus.

I have read your opening post with very much interest. I am sure you realise some other Christians would not go along with how you understand 144,000 and the tribulation.

First, we must be careful when we speak catagorically of the Tribulation as something in the future. Scripture does not use the words 'The Tribulation' (Please, no-one come back with the old chestnut that the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible; there are different criterium applying.)

Secondly, I believe that The Book of Revelation, must be seen for what it is; not what it is not. It is not recording events sequentially within our human sequential time frame mindset.

Once we try to understand that Almighty God sees everything in a kind of eternally panoramic view i.e., 'all peoples, all things, all ages, all events - past present and future -all at the same time and eternally' then we will grasp a better understanding of what God is saying to us in the Book of Revelation, especially concerning what the 'last days' are and what 'tribulation' is.

Your brother in Jesus.
David

Tribulation is mentioned in scripture.
As far as the book of Revelation is concerned. Christ told John to write the book in 3 categories. The things that were,the things that are present,and things to come.
As for the 144,000 they will indeed be witnesses during the tribulation,day of the lord,days of Jacobs troubke,etc.

 

[lentz]

As a footnote....the new heaven and the new earth will be after the millennium.

 

[NoHype]

Who are the 144,000 in Book of Revelation?

Like in the Books of God's prophet Isaiah, the seed of Israel and Gentiles are often mentioned separately in God's Salvation Plan (like Isaiah 54:3). Likewise in Revelation 7 with the 144,000 literal Israelites that are 'sealed', and then the "great multitude" representing Gentiles that are 'sealed'.

That idea of being 'sealed' is about being sealed by The Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; Ephesians 1:12-13; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22).

The purpose for God's seal at the end of this world is revealed in Revelation 9, in contrast with those who are 'not'... sealed allowed to be stung for five months. That stinging by the metaphorical scorpions is about deception to lies. Christ's elect are 'sealed' against that for the tribulation.

Therefore, all... of these of Revelation 7, both the 144,000 Israelites that are 'sealed', and the "great multitude" of Gentiles that are also 'sealed', represent Christ's Church for the end.

And that sealing happens PRIOR to the "great tribulation". So men's doctrine often taught by the Pre-trib Rapture doctors that the 144,000 only convert to Jesus sometime 'during' the great tribulation, is a false idea.

When the time of "great tribulation" starts, everyone will be divided into either a believer or a non-believer, and will remain that way all the way up until Christ's return at the end of the tribulation. The conversion of some Jews to Jesus during the tribulation is not Biblical, but is only supposition mainly by the Pre-trib Rapture school.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Who are the 144,000 in Book of Revelation?

The 144,000 Jews / Israelites who are sealed in Revelation 7:4-8 are sealed for the specific purpose of being “evangelists” during the Tribulation period. The sealing provides protection from the plagues and devastation brought on by the trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as from the wrath of the Antichrist. The 144,000 is not a limit to how many people will be saved, but rather is just a select group of Jewish believers called to proclaim God’s message during the end times. There will be perhaps millions of other converts during the Tribulation, most of them a result of the 144,000’s ministry.

Revelation 7:4-8

And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

IPV Commentary

The Reward of the 144,000

Respectfully, the idea that the 144,000 are a special force of ethnic Jewish evangelists during a future tribulation doesn’t come from Scripture — it comes from Scofield’s notes and Dispensational heresy.

Let’s look at the text:

Revelation 7:4–8 lists 12 tribes of Israel — not “Jews.”
This includes Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, Zebulun — tribes long considered “lost” by mainstream tradition.

But lost to who?

They didn’t vanish — they migrated. They were scattered among the nations, just as prophecy foretold (Genesis 28:14, Hosea 1:10).
Some settled in Europe.
God never lost track of them — man did.

So unless God’s planning on handing out DNA test kits in the last days, it’s safe to say Revelation is speaking symbolically — pointing to the fullness of God’s covenant people, not a racial remnant.

And nowhere does the Bible say these 144,000 evangelize the world. That’s pure speculation.
Revelation 14 says they sing a song no one else can learn, that they are undefiled, and that they follow the Lamb wherever He goes — not knocking on doors handing out tracts during a seven-year time slot.

And Revelation 7 doesn’t separate them from the Church — it connects them directly to the great multitude in the very next verse (7:9), made up of every tribe, tongue, and nation.
The redeemed. The Body of Christ. One people.

“If you are in Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise.” – Galatians 3:29

That includes the 144,000.
That includes the great multitude.
That includes Jew and Gentile — sealed in the blood of Christ, not through a last-minute tribal assignment.

The idea that God removes the Church, then turns to save Jews through a rebuilt temple or elite evangelism squad is not found in Scripture. It’s not found in the Bible at all — it’s found in the 1909 margin notes of Cyrus Scofield, a disbarred lawyer, conman, and pawn of Zionist interests who rewrote Christian theology with a pen soaked in heresy.

Let’s stop dividing God’s plan into two peoples.
There is one body, one Shepherd, and one Name under heaven by which we must be saved — Jesus Christ.

 

[Rhema]

Revelation is speaking symbolically — pointing to the fullness of God’s covenant people,

So which tribes do these come from? Are they symbolic tribes? Interesting, 144,000 Protestant demonizations? (I jest).

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.​

- Revelation 7:4 KJV

And the Tribes are very specific:

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.​

- Revelation 7:5-8 KJV

the fullness of God’s covenant people, not a racial remnant.

So no Messianic Hebrews, then. (Got it.)

And Revelation 7 doesn’t separate them from the Church — it connects them directly to the great multitude in the very next verse (7:9), made up of every tribe, tongue, and nation.

You may wish to read this passage again, because YES, there most certainly is a separation.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;​

- Revelation 7:9 KJV

Just from a surface reading, there are four angels about to destroy the Earth, ("angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea") but a pause happens until this "sealing" of the 144,000 is done....

μετα (After) ταυτα (this)

HOWEVER... I provide a LINK to the Slater Lexicon for G3326 μετά meta
1. prep.,

a. c. accusative​

I. to, among​

Slater indicates that there is an alternate rendering for μετα ταυτα that would read... "Among these" (since ταυτα is plural, a mistake that the KJV doesn't seem to care about).

And lo, among these I beheld a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;​

- Revelation 7:9

While I did NOT spend a lot of time to validate this alternate reading, it leads to an interesting observation. If a believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest. Then "the end" where the four angels destroy the earth is placed on pause until 144,000 Hebrews get saved (over time) and can stand among the great multitude.

One could conclude that after the time of Acts 2, the second coming awaits the salvation of 144,000 Israelites who then stand with the unnumbered gentiles. At the salvation of the last 144,000, the four angels are released.

Just thought I'd mention this.

Rhema
Full transparency, though, Revelation is not in our canon, and the book was not written in the best of Greek.
(@Christ4Ever)

 

[Christ4Ever]

Full transparency, though, Revelation is not in our canon, and the book was not written in the best of Greek.

Who is "our"?
It's all Greek to me...

 

[Garee]

So which tribes do these come from? Are they symbolic tribes? Interesting, 144,000 Protestant demonizations? (I jest).

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.- Revelation 7:4 KJV

And the Tribes are very specific:
Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.- Revelation 7:5-8 KJV

Tribes are families. Whenever two or three gather under sola scriptura. Three the smallest denomination.

In the description of the bride in that parable (Revelation 7:5-8 KJV) Christ the husband previously called her Isreal which the Father in Isaiah 62 promised to change into Christian. . Christian sons of God literally means residents of the city of Christ prepared as the bride. A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the world.

Leaving out the Tribe of Dan from Revelation 7 . Dan as judge, the judgment according to the letter of the law (death) falling back off one high horse slain in the spirit .

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Twelve = the authority of God. Twelve tribes with the tribe of Dan missing, 12 apostles with Judas missing =144,000 an golden number no man could count .

 

[th1bill]

Who is "our"?
It's all Greek to me...

LOL, just a foot note, it is in the Christian Cannon and that is a group of nuts crazy enough to believe the Revelation of Yashua. I hang the nuts.

 

[Rxlx]

Meanwhile out in the real world outside the padded walls of tj the 144,000 are 144,000 martyrs - a mixture of those faithful who died in OT times - John the Baptist etc - and Christians in these NT times.
12,000 from each of the 12 tribes - 2 tribes of Jews and 10 tribes of AngloSaxon Christians.

 

[Rxlx]

LOL, just a foot note, it is in the Christian Cannon and that is a group of nuts crazy enough to believe the Revelation of Yashua. I hang the nuts.

Old Bill is a selfdescribed nut who will have a bad Judgment Day interview.

 

[Rhema]

it is in the Christian Cannon

Which Christians? The canon you got from the Roman Catholics in 393 AD? It wasn't in the "Christian" canon in 325 AD.

And iIt's not in the canon of the Church of the East. Here's a link to their (our?) New Testament. Check the table of contents. The Church of the East was started by the Apostle Thomas after he had enough of the nonsense between Peter, James and Paul.

TheAramaicScriptures.com

The Holy Aramaic Scriptures: With a literal English translation and transliteration of The Eastern Peshitta New Testament Text, such as given in The Khabouris Codex.

www.thearamaicscriptures.com

I hang the nuts.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.​

- Matthew 12:37 KJV

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But BILL says unto you, HANG your enemies, INSULT them that curse you, do hatred to them that hate you, and stick out your tongue to them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of Bill's Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his anger to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth floods on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?​

- Matthew 5:43-46 th1bill version

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

- Luke 6:46 KJV

Hang not... lest thou be hanged.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

So which tribes do these come from? Are they symbolic tribes? Interesting, 144,000 Protestant demonizations? (I jest).

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.​

- Revelation 7:4 KJV

And the Tribes are very specific:

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.​

- Revelation 7:5-8 KJV

​

1. “Meta tauta” doesn’t mean “among these” in Revelation 7:9 — it means after these things.
The Greek phrase μετὰ ταῦτα is used consistently in Revelation to mark a new visionary sequence, not an inclusion clause.

Revelation 4:1: “Meta tauta I looked…” > a new vision begins.

Revelation 7:9: “Meta tauta I looked…” > another vision begins.

The phrase never means “among these” in this narrative context.
Strong's Greek 3326 (“meta”) can mean “among” in spatial use, but only when paired with a genitive form, not an accusative plural like ταῦτα.
So the lexicon note he referenced is correct in general usage, but not applicable here.
Grammatical integrity matters. And in this case, his translation is eisegesis, not exegesis.

2. Revelation 7 doesn’t depict two separate peoples — it shows one people described from two angles.
The 144,000 are described with covenantal symbolism — “from the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4–8)
The great multitude are described with global inclusion — “from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation”(Revelation 7:9)

But both are:
Standing before the throne
Clothed in white robes
Before the Lamb
Sealed and redeemed

This is classic apocalyptic layering: first, a symbolic covenant vision of God’s people, then the expansion to reveal what that really looks like — a multitude no one can number, drawn from the nations.
It mirrors what Paul says in Romans 11 — not two trees, but one tree into which Jews and Gentiles are grafted together, not separated.

3. God’s covenant people were never defined by ethnicity — always by faith.
“Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel…” – Romans 9:6
“For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith… There is neither Jew nor Greek…” – Galatians 3:26–29
“He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but inwardly…” – Romans 2:28–29

So the 144,000 “of Israel” in Revelation 7 are not about genetic Israel.
They are about the covenant fullness of God’s redeemed people — including Jews and Gentiles — who are sealed by the Lamb, not by ethnicity.

4. The entire chapter is symbolic and spiritual — not genetic census data.
Notice: Dan is missing from the tribal list, and Ephraim is absorbed under Joseph. Why?

Because it’s not a literal tribal roll call — it’s a spiritual construct.
It reflects an idealized, prophetic picture of covenant fulfillment, not a tribal registry.

You can’t inject Dispensationalist assumptions back into the text by playing with alternate lexicon readings.

Revelation 7 tells the same story Paul, Jesus, and the prophets told:
One redeemed people of God, sealed by the Spirit, purchased by the Lamb, and gathered from every nation under heaven.

144,000 is not a separate race. It’s the heavenly census of the redeemed — fulfilled in Christ, not in bloodlines.