ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[YourWordIsTruth]

Psalm 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
God > H430 אֱלֹהִים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God;
gods > H430 אֱלֹהִים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God;
congregation > H5712 עֵדָה ‛êdâh
Feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically a concourse, or generally a family or crowd):
mighty > H410 אֵל 'êl
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):

I know all about this, how does this change anything what I have said in the OP?

 

[Waggles]

I know all about this, how does this change anything what I have said in the OP?

It is not a challenge to your OP but merely a supportive commentary to your thesis that I also agree with.
There are some who believe that there is no family of gods and other spiritual beings.
There are some who do not believe that Jesus is also YHWH.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

It is not a challenge to your OP but merely a supportive commentary to your thesis that I also agree with.
There are some who believe that there is no family of gods and other spiritual beings.
There are some who do not believe that Jesus is also YHWH.

thanks for your time and comments

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

forgive me for my late reply, please.

can you expand on what you are saying on Psalm 82, and how you think that I could be wrong on this?

I don't think that there is any doubt, from the research that I have provided in the OP, that "Elohim" is never used in the Bible for "plural of majasties", but rather to show the plurality of Persons in the Godhead.

I will like to see some good arguments, if there are any, to disprove my own reasoning in the OP.

Thanks

I understand that don't think there is any doubt.

May i ask if you have a problem with anyone who questions your reasoning? I ask because had you reply been simply, "can you expand on what you are saying on Psalm 82" then i would only have to read and understand what you are replying.
I am not here to prove or disprove you, so please do not expect me to attempt to do so.

I suggested that perhaps the understanding of what we read in Psalm 82 might be more akin to what we read in James 3:1

I would exercise caution when seeking to prove things in the Bible such as 'the plurality of Persons in the Godhead.' as we don't actually see that phrase in Scripture and must invent thesis' to make it somehow readable in the text. Many have done that over many, many years and come up with all manner of different schisms and divisions because of using limited minds to prove ideas that we want to fit with the thinking we want to prove and want others to acknowledge.

To us there is but one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom are all things, and we by Him.
1Corinthians 8:6

All men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.
John 5:23


Bless you ....><>


After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 7:9-17

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

Greetings,

forgive me for my late reply, please.



I understand that don't think there is any doubt.

May i ask if you have a problem with anyone who questions your reasoning? I ask because had you reply been simply, "can you expand on what you are saying on Psalm 82" then i would only have to read and understand what you are replying.
I am not here to prove or disprove you, so please do not expect me to attempt to do so.

I suggested that perhaps the understanding of what we read in Psalm 82 might be more akin to what we read in James 3:1

I would exercise caution when seeking to prove things in the Bible such as 'the plurality of Persons in the Godhead.' as we don't actually see that phrase in Scripture and must invent thesis' to make it somehow readable in the text. Many have done that over many, many years and come up with all manner of different schisms and divisions because of using limited minds to prove ideas that we want to fit with the thinking we want to prove and want others to acknowledge.

To us there is but one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom are all things, and we by Him.
1Corinthians 8:6

All men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.
John 5:23


Bless you ....><>


After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 7:9-17

I have no problem is anyone who questions, or challenges, what I write. However, when they do, they must give greater details as to why they write what they do, which is why I asked for more info on Psalm 82

You said, "I would exercise caution when seeking to prove things in the Bible such as 'the plurality of Persons in the Godhead.' as we don't actually see that phrase in Scripture and must invent thesis' to make it somehow readable in the text"

Caution for what reason? it is very clear from what I have shown in the OP, that the use of the PLURAL Hebrew "Elohim" , does not in any instance mean as some suggest, "plurality of majesty", which is an absurd escape from the facts that we have in Scripture! IF, the Godhead is UNIPERSONAL, then the SINGULAR forms of GOD in Hebrew would have been used. Also another fact, both the Old and New Testaments are very clear, to those who wish to see, that there is more than One Person Who is called GOD. It is also very clear from the Bible, that there is One God, or better, Godhead/Divine Nature, and that there are not three seperate Gods. Therefore the Trinity as used to define this Godhead, is the only correct, Biblical way to do so.

 

[Waggles]

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and thou shalt call his name *JESUS; for HE shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this is come to pass that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet saying,
23 Lo, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuēl; which being interpreted is, God with us.

"for HE shall save his people from their sins" in the OT the children of Israel belong to YHWH so here again we have scripture clearly indicating that Jesus is also YHWH
The OT describes that there are two YHWH - one of which is sometimes also called the Word of God.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

can you expand on what you are saying on Psalm 82, and how you think that I could be wrong on this?

I don't think that there is any doubt, from the research that I have provided in the OP, that "Elohim" is never used in the Bible for "plural of majasties", but rather to show the plurality of Persons in the Godhead.

I will like to see some good arguments, if there are any, to disprove my own reasoning in the OP.

Thanks

You are wrong. In this case, "Elohim" is NOT the trinity, but most definitely referring to heavenly hosts, and to be more specific, corrupt "watcher" angels. How do I know this? Ps. 82:6-7, SAME chapter:

I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are CHILDREN of the Most High.
But you shall DIE like men,
And FALL like one of the princes.”

Apparently, Elohim, "gods", in 82:6 are "children" of the one and only Creator God, it's just another name for "sons of God" in Gen. 6:3 and Deut. 32:8 in Septuigent version. They are gonna die like men and fall like the princes, not the trinity. How? Cast into the Lake of Fire. When? After the millennial kingdom.

I recommend the Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael Heist, he's a bible expert on this. Search his name on Apple Podcast, find a result with the name Unseen Realm in its title, have a listen, and you'll get a grip. If you're insterested, PM me your e-mail, I'll send you an epub of this book.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

You are wrong. In this case, "Elohim" is NOT the trinity, but most definitely referring to heavenly hosts, and to be more specific, corrupt "watcher" angels. How do I know this? Ps. 82:6-7, SAME chapter:

I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are CHILDREN of the Most High.
But you shall DIE like men,
And FALL like one of the princes.”

Apparently, Elohim, "gods", in 82:6 are "children" of the one and only Creator God, it's just another name for "sons of God" in Gen. 6:3 and Deut. 32:8 in Septuigent version. They are gonna die like men and fall like the princes, not the trinity. How? Cast into the Lake of Fire. When? After the millennial kingdom.

I recommend the Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael Heist, he's a bible expert on this. Search his name on Apple Podcast, find a result with the name Unseen Realm in its title, have a listen, and you'll get a grip. If you're insterested, PM me your e-mail, I'll send you an epub of this book.

I really wish that you would read what I have written in the OP, than to make silly remarks about me being wrong!

I VERY CLEARLY have written

"Another good example, is Psalm 82, which shows that the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, cannot be used as “plural of majesty”."

and have not mentioned that the Trinity is anywhere in this Pslam!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I really wish that you would read what I have written in the OP, than to make silly remarks about me being wrong!

I VERY CLEARLY have written

"Another good example, is Psalm 82, which shows that the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, cannot be used as “plural of majesty”."

and have not mentioned that the Trinity is anywhere in this Pslam!

Well then, perhaps it's just a poor choice of word. It would be much less confusing if you had used "deities" instead of "majesties". All I'm saying is, "Elohim" is not uniquely and universally referring to God in the bible.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

Well then, perhaps it's just a poor choice of word. It would be much less confusing if you had used "deities" instead of "majesties". All I'm saying is, "Elohim" is not uniquely and universally referring to God in the bible.

perhaps you should read the OP again. It is clear how the Jews understand the plural "Elohim", which I have refuted from the Bible. This is what I quoted in the OP, in case you missed it

“The most common of the originally appellative names of God is Elohim (אלהים), plural in form though commonly construed with a singular verb or adjective. This is, most probably, to be explained as the plural of majesty or excellence, expressing high dignity or greatness” (Jewish Encyclopedia)

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

perhaps you should read the OP again. It is clear how the Jews understand the plural "Elohim", which I have refuted from the Bible. This is what I quoted in the OP, in case you missed it

“The most common of the originally appellative names of God is Elohim (אלהים), plural in form though commonly construed with a singular verb or adjective. This is, most probably, to be explained as the plural of majesty or excellence, expressing high dignity or greatness” (Jewish Encyclopedia)

I didn't miss that part. "Majesty or excellence, high dignity or greatness" are godly traits which those angels or heavenly hosts also have, that's why they're "sons of God", but they're not equal with God even though it's translated as "gods" in Ps. 82. God created them in that way for a reason.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

I didn't miss that part. "Majesty or excellence, high dignity or greatness" are godly traits which those angels or heavenly hosts also have, that's why they're "sons of God", but they're not equal with God even though it's translated as "gods" in Ps. 82. God created them in that way for a reason.

you still don't get what the OP is about!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

you still don't get what the OP is about!

What requires is not a deep dive of etymology based on extrabiblical sources, but a correct definition of "God" based on the bible itself. And what is that definition? Creator of the universe, outside of the time-space continuum we're in. That is the primary identity above all other identities that can be attributed to him. I explained that in my own OP, welcome to check out.

What's more important when reading the Scripture: the Scripture itself or your PROSPECTIVE of the Scripture?

Since I had my first encounter with the Holy Spirit who led me dive into the Scripture, I always thought that the Word of God is the highest authority, Sola Scriptura is a basic principle, whenever I made an argument, I always backed it up with a direct quote or a reference of the Scripture as...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Br. Bear]

@Jonathan_Gale

Greetings,

does the 'definition' have to be, heavenly hosts or more particularly, watcher angels?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Jonathan_Gale

Greetings,

does the 'definition' have to be, heavenly hosts or more particularly, watcher angels?


Bless you ....><>

Greetings. Yes, at least in that specific chapter. Holy Trinity or other good angels don't get to "die like man" or "fall like the other princes". These ones are being judged.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Jonathan,

What about 'judges' or 'magistrates', appointed by the LORD, and therefore accountable to Him, as well as 'representative' of Him? We might call them 'agents', today? Regal agents, of the house but not the Lord of the House, but with the authority of the Lord to carry on His business, so to speak?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Greetings Jonathan,

What about 'judges' or 'magistrates', appointed by the LORD, and therefore accountable to Him, as well as 'representative' of Him? We might call them 'agents', today? Regal agents, of the house but not the Lord of the House, but with the authority of the Lord to carry on His business, so to speak?


Bless you ....><>

Is this about Rom. 13? This is all based on what is known as the "Deuteronomy 32 worldview", 32:8 is the key verse, in Septuigent version - very important - it states, "When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When he separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the ANGELS OF GOD." These angels were appointed to run the nations, Rom. 13 just explains this arrangement.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Jonathan,

I'll get back to you on that but must be elsewhere presently,


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

Deuteronomy 32:8
(AMPC) When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the children of men, He set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Israelites.
(ASV) When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, When he separated the children of men, He set the bounds of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel.
(BSB) When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He divided the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
(CSB) When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance and divided the human race, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the people of Israel.
(ESV) When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
(GNB) The Most High assigned nations their lands; he determined where peoples should live. He assigned to each nation a heavenly being,
(GW) When the Most High gave nations their land, when he divided the descendants of Adam, he set up borders for the tribes corresponding to the number of the sons of Israel.
(HCSB) When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance and divided the human race, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the people of Israel.
(KJV) When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
(MKJV) When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of Israel.
(NAS77) "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.
(NAS95) "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.
(NIrV) The Most High God gave the nations their lands. He divided up the human race. He set up borders for the nations. He did it based on the number of the sons of Israel.
(NIV) When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel.
(NKJV) When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel.
(NLT) When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court.

The original Hebrew word here is...

yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.
Total KJV occurrences: 2505

 

[B-A-C]

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."