1 John chapter 5: verse 7 and the Greek Grammar

[complete]

' This is He
that came by water and blood,
even Jesus Christ;
not by water only,
but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,
because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record
[in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness
in earth, ]
the Spirit, and the water, and the blood:
and these three agree in one.'
(1Jn 5:6-8)

Hello there,

In my Bible marginal notes, I am informed that the texts read, 'the Spirit, and the water', and ch., but omit all the words from ' in heaven' to ' in earth' (v. 8) inclusive. The words are not found in any Greek MS. before the sixteenth century. They were first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

In 2 Samuel 23:2, the Holy Spirit is clearly Yahweh, as He Speaks as Yahweh in the first Person. There is no other way to understand what the Hebrew says here

“The Spirit of the LORD speaks by me (heb., דִּבֶּר־בִּי, is masculine); His word (heb., וּמִלָּתוֹ , is feminine, lit, “Her word”) is on my tongue. The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me”

We would have expected “אֶת־דְּבָרוֹ”, the masculine, “His word”, which would agree with “יהוה” (YHWH), which is masculine. The Spirit here is the subject, He is the One Who speaks by David, and it is His word that is on David’s tongue. The following words also belong to the Spirit, Who is also called “The God of Israel”, and “the Rock of Israel”. Very strong assertion for the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts chapter 5, the Holy Spirit is clearly called God

“But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God…But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord?…” (5:3, 4, 9)

The Apostle Peter says to Anania, that he lied to “The Holy Spirit (το πνευμα το αγιον)”. And then says, in doing so, he actually lied “to the God (τω θεω). And then tells his wife, Sapphira, that they had “tested the Spirit of the Lord”, by their actions.

Here we have the Deity of the Holy Spirit, where He is called “God”, and “the Spirit of the Lord”. Notice the definite article in the Greek, “τω”, with “God”, where it cannot be translated as “god”.

In Acts 13:2, we read, "As they served the Lord and fasted", and the Person Who responds, is the Holy Spirit, "the Holy Spirit said, “Separate Barnabas and Saul for me, for the work to which I have called them". Note, the Holy Spirit called Paul into the ministry!

See my lastest thread on the reading in the Dead Sea Scrolls, for Isaiah 40:13-14, which is also clear that the Holy Spirit is Yahweh, Isaiah 40:13, the DSS and The Holy Spirit

The DSS are Jewish and from the end BC, and 1st century AD, so cannot have been corrupted by Christians

But again, this is all predicated on the assumption of a third person. Who called Paul to the ministry. It was Christ. So, If the Father is God, and Christ is God, and the Holy spirit is God, let me ask you the question that always sends these discussions into the realm of the absurd. Since you acknowledge the separate persons, how is there, and what is, the one God? If there's only one God, and each of the persons are God, and there are three persons, how is there one God? I don't really expect an answer to this question as there isn't one. It's logical contradiction, unless we're saying the word God is something other than a person. If it's a title, which I believe it is, then yes, there can be more than one and still be only one God. That's because we apply it to authority. However, that opposes your OP which claims that there are three that are coequal. This is why Trinitarianism gets trapped in a box. There's no realistic way out which is why no one can ever give a good explanation of the Trinity.

I think one of the problems is that people don't differentiate between the uses of the word God. In conflating them they wind up with confusing and illogical doctrines. That's the case with the Trinity doctrine. The Athanasian Creed, which states that there are three coequal, coeternal, persons, is what the majority hold to today. The problem is that doesn't fit with what we find in Scripture. For instance we find this.

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 32:29–30.

Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? 19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jdg 13:16–22.

In these passages, Jacob, Manoah, and his wife, are all said to have seen God. Yet the apostle John says that no one has seen God. If we have three coequal, coeternal persons, we have contradiction. Either Jacob, and Manoah are wrong, or John is wrong. However, if John is using the word God as a name for the Father, then there is no problem. That's exactly what we find.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 1:18.

John tells us that man no has seen God at anytime. How can that be if people in the OT saw God? If John is referring specifically to the Father, there's no problem. This has to be the case because, people saw the preincarnate Christ. John says, the Son has made God known. So, in this passage John is contrasting the Son with God. Obviously, God in this instance does not refer to the Son. So, if Jesus is God and in this instance is differentiated from God, the word God must be being used in a different sense. We have Paul's words. He too tells us that no one has seen God.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, ythe King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, adwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be dhonour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:14–16.

Paul tells us that not only has no man seen God, but that no one can see Him. Paul says this one who cannot be seen is the "Only" potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of lords, who no one can see. That Can't be Jesus as many have seen Him. That only leaves the Father. If He's the only potentate, then He has authority above that of Christ, thus we don't have three coequals. Conflating these different usages of the word God is very problematic. Sometimes the word is used of deity and other times it is used to refer to a specific deity. Jesus is God in the sense that He is Deity. He is not God in the sense of the one True God.

Regarding speaking in the first person. We would expect to find this. Paul says that Jesus is the express image of the Father. Jesus Himself said that the words He spoke were not His but the Father's. If He's speaking for the Father, we would expect the use of the first person. Regarding the Spirit speaking in the first person, we would also expect that since the Spirit is the Father. It's not a third person. Jesus tells that us pretty clearly.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.


The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Jn 16:7–15.

So here Jesus is speaking of the Helper and the Spirit of Truth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we would all agree that the Helper and the Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit. Jesus goes on to explain more. After telling them of HIs going away, He says this.

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Jn 16:25.

Jesus said that in speaking of those things He was speaking in figurative language. What things were they? The Helper and the Spirit of Truth. He says they were figurative language about the Father. The Father is the Helper and Spirit of Truth. We know that the Greek and Hebrew words translated spirit literally mean wind and by extension breath. We know that the English word spirit is a figurative translation of these Greek and Hebrew words. That bags the question, what is the Holy Wind or Breath? Luke Equates it as "the power of the Highest" in his Gospel. In Genesis we see the Wind or Breath of God is that which gives man life. In Job we find that the Wind or Breath of God is what gives man understanding. Why is this Wind or Breath called the Holy Wind when given to believers? I would submit that it's because that when God called Israel to be His people, He told them were to be a Holy and separate people. Christians are likewise called to this same thing. Thus we are given this Wind or Breath to assist us in living holy.

The Scriptures simply don't allow for a third person. That is simply a misunderstanding of Scripture that was codified in the Athanasian Creed.

 

[Butch5]

' This is He
that came by water and blood,
even Jesus Christ;
not by water only,
but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,
because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record
[in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness
in earth, ]
the Spirit, and the water, and the blood:
and these three agree in one.'
(1Jn 5:6-8)

Hello there,

In my Bible marginal notes, I am informed that the texts read, 'the Spirit, and the water', and ch., but omit all the words from ' in heaven' to ' in earth' (v. 8) inclusive. The words are not found in any Greek MS. before the sixteenth century. They were first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree. That's why I think the language argument here is a moot point. The passage simply didn't exist.

 

[Butch5]

both Tertullian and Cyprian who were in the early Church in the 2nd/3rd centuries, and had both Greek and Latin Epistles of John, clearly quote these words as part of what John wrote.

I have shown that the Greek grammar is conclusive for the words to be retained as part of the Epistle, removing these words cause the grammar to become inconsistent, which is not what the Holy Spirit would have told John to write.

Here is a very interesting fact in history. The Church Council of Carthage (485 A.D.), which was mainly attended by bishops who were Arian in their theology, anti Trinitarian, and anti Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit being God, there is a statement of faith at the council, and this manifesto was incorporated into Victor Vitensis’ account. It speaks of the Comma:

“And as a shining light teaching the unity of the divinity of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit, the testimony of John the Evangelist demonstratively testifies: ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.’” (Victor of Vitensis, Historia persecutionis Africanae)

Yes, the chose 1 John 5:7 as their text for the Holy Trinity, which could not have been referred to, if it were not part of the Original Epistle of John. No doubt this would have been very strongly objected to the by Arians who were present, if it were not genuine!

I bolded part of your post here. I think we get into trouble when we start to presume what God or the Holy Spirit would or should have done/said.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

But again, this is all predicated on the assumption of a third person. Who called Paul to the ministry. It was Christ. So, If the Father is God, and Christ is God, and the Holy spirit is God, let me ask you the question that always sends these discussions into the realm of the absurd. Since you acknowledge the separate persons, how is there, and what is, the one God? If there's only one God, and each of the persons are God, and there are three persons, how is there one God? I don't really expect an answer to this question as there isn't one. It's logical contradiction, unless we're saying the word God is something other than a person. If it's a title, which I believe it is, then yes, there can be more than one and still be only one God. That's because we apply it to authority. However, that opposes your OP which claims that there are three that are coequal. This is why Trinitarianism gets trapped in a box. There's no realistic way out which is why no one can ever give a good explanation of the Trinity.

I think one of the problems is that people don't differentiate between the uses of the word God. In conflating them they wind up with confusing and illogical doctrines. That's the case with the Trinity doctrine. The Athanasian Creed, which states that there are three coequal, coeternal, persons, is what the majority hold to today. The problem is that doesn't fit with what we find in Scripture. For instance we find this.

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 32:29–30.

Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD. 17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? 19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jdg 13:16–22.

In these passages, Jacob, Manoah, and his wife, are all said to have seen God. Yet the apostle John says that no one has seen God. If we have three coequal, coeternal persons, we have contradiction. Either Jacob, and Manoah are wrong, or John is wrong. However, if John is using the word God as a name for the Father, then there is no problem. That's exactly what we find.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 1:18.

John tells us that man no has seen God at anytime. How can that be if people in the OT saw God? If John is referring specifically to the Father, there's no problem. This has to be the case because, people saw the preincarnate Christ. John says, the Son has made God known. So, in this passage John is contrasting the Son with God. Obviously, God in this instance does not refer to the Son. So, if Jesus is God and in this instance is differentiated from God, the word God must be being used in a different sense. We have Paul's words. He too tells us that no one has seen God.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, ythe King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, adwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be dhonour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:14–16.

Paul tells us that not only has no man seen God, but that no one can see Him. Paul says this one who cannot be seen is the "Only" potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of lords, who no one can see. That Can't be Jesus as many have seen Him. That only leaves the Father. If He's the only potentate, then He has authority above that of Christ, thus we don't have three coequals. Conflating these different usages of the word God is very problematic. Sometimes the word is used of deity and other times it is used to refer to a specific deity. Jesus is God in the sense that He is Deity. He is not God in the sense of the one True God.

Regarding speaking in the first person. We would expect to find this. Paul says that Jesus is the express image of the Father. Jesus Himself said that the words He spoke were not His but the Father's. If He's speaking for the Father, we would expect the use of the first person. Regarding the Spirit speaking in the first person, we would also expect that since the Spirit is the Father. It's not a third person. Jesus tells that us pretty clearly.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.


The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Jn 16:7–15.

So here Jesus is speaking of the Helper and the Spirit of Truth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we would all agree that the Helper and the Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit. Jesus goes on to explain more. After telling them of HIs going away, He says this.

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Jn 16:25.

Jesus said that in speaking of those things He was speaking in figurative language. What things were they? The Helper and the Spirit of Truth. He says they were figurative language about the Father. The Father is the Helper and Spirit of Truth. We know that the Greek and Hebrew words translated spirit literally mean wind and by extension breath. We know that the English word spirit is a figurative translation of these Greek and Hebrew words. That bags the question, what is the Holy Wind or Breath? Luke Equates it as "the power of the Highest" in his Gospel. In Genesis we see the Wind or Breath of God is that which gives man life. In Job we find that the Wind or Breath of God is what gives man understanding. Why is this Wind or Breath called the Holy Wind when given to believers? I would submit that it's because that when God called Israel to be His people, He told them were to be a Holy and separate people. Christians are likewise called to this same thing. Thus we are given this Wind or Breath to assist us in living holy.

The Scriptures simply don't allow for a third person. That is simply a misunderstanding of Scripture that was codified in the Athanasian Creed.

you are trying t understand the impossible for any human mind to, which is very much limited!

It is clear that there are THREE distinct Persons, Who are equally called Yahweh and God in the Bible. It is also clear, that the Godhead is only One Divine Nature

Just because you cannot grasp the Great Truth of the Trinity, does not mean it is not in the Bible!

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

I bolded part of your post here. I think we get into trouble when we start to presume what God or the Holy Spirit would or should have done/said.

it is only you who gets into trouble, I see no problem whatsoever in believing that God is One in Three!

Are you are Jehovah's Witness?

 

[Butch5]

you are trying t understand the impossible for any human mind to, which is very much limited!

It is clear that there are THREE distinct Persons, Who are equally called Yahweh and God in the Bible. It is also clear, that the Godhead is only One Divine Nature

Just because you cannot grasp the Great Truth of the Trinity, does not mean it is not in the Bible!

I'm not trying to understand the impossible. The Bible doesn't speak of a Trinity. That's a man made doctrine. The Bible actually tells us the opposite rather plainly. The Shema says God is one. The apostle Paul, when writing to the Corinthians said, ' to us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. Here Paul contrasts Jesus with the "one God" and says that the one God is the Father. Likewise, Jesus, in His prayer to the Father in John 17 says, 'this isetrrnal life, that they may know you, the only True God'. So Jesus too acknowledges the Father as the "one God". All of these have to be taken into account also. The problem is that they flatly refute the idea of three coequal, coetenal, persons.

They are just the plain statements. There is other evidence that should be considered also. For instance, Paul tells us that after all things culminate the Son will be subject to the Father. There can't be three coequals if the Son is in subjection to the Fsther.

There's also anecdotal evidence. If we look at all of Paul's letters to the churches we find something rather interesting. He starts them all similarly. They all start with a greeting similar to, grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. Nowhere does he say grace and peace from the Holy Spirit. If there are three coequal, coeternal, beings of the Godhead one has to wonder why Paul never includes this third person in his greetings to the churches.

Jesus also said, no one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father. How is it that there are three coequal, coeternal, beings in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit doesn't know the other two?

All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wants to reveal him

Theres so much evidence one has to wonder how this doctrine ever came to be. But, we dont have to wonder the answer is in the Athanasian Creed. It says if you dont believe this, the creed, you cant be saved. Since many people were illiterate back then not too many could challenge that statement

 

[Butch5]

it is only you who gets into trouble, I see no problem whatsoever in believing that God is One in Three!

Are you are Jehovah's Witness?

I don't have any trouble, my friend. As I pointed out. It all fits together as I explained it. It's when we try to make three persons one person that we run into problems. A lot of people have no problem believing it, it's just not logical.

No, I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I'm simply a Christian who prioritizes God's word over church doctrone.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

I'm not trying to understand the impossible. The Bible doesn't speak of a Trinity. That's a man made doctrine. The Bible actually tells us the opposite rather plainly. The Shema says God is one. The apostle Paul, when writing to the Corinthians said, ' to us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. Here Paul contrasts Jesus with the "one God" and says that the one God is the Father. Likewise, Jesus, in His prayer to the Father in John 17 says, 'this isetrrnal life, that they may know you, the only True God'. So Jesus too acknowledges the Father as the "one God". All of these have to be taken into account also. The problem is that they flatly refute the idea of three coequal, coetenal, persons.

They are just the plain statements. There is other evidence that should be considered also. For instance, Paul tells us that after all things culminate the Son will be subject to the Father. There can't be three coequals if the Son is in subjection to the Fsther.

There's also anecdotal evidence. If we look at all of Paul's letters to the churches we find something rather interesting. He starts them all similarly. They all start with a greeting similar to, grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. Nowhere does he say grace and peace from the Holy Spirit. If there are three coequal, coeternal, beings of the Godhead one has to wonder why Paul never includes this third person in his greetings to the churches.

Jesus also said, no one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father. How is it that there are three coequal, coeternal, beings in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit doesn't know the other two?

All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wants to reveal him

Theres so much evidence one has to wonder how this doctrine ever came to be. But, we dont have to wonder the answer is in the Athanasian Creed. It says if you dont believe this, the creed, you cant be saved. Since many people were illiterate back then not too many could challenge that statement

take a look at these threads

One God The Father, One Lord Jesus Christ

One God The Father, One Lord Jesus Christ “But if anyone loves God (τὸν Θεόν), the same is known by him. Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God (θεος) but one (εἷς). For though there are things...

www.talkjesus.com

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God It is argued by some, that verses in the Bible, like John 17:3, where the Father is called, “The only True God”; and Romans 16:27, where the Father is called, “God only wise”; that Jesus Christ is not “God” (ὁ θεὸς), because in these passages, the Father is...

www.talkjesus.com

The LORD said to My LORD…

The LORD said to My LORD… “Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to him, “The son of David.”( Matthew 22:41-42). How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Butch5]

take a look at these threads

One God The Father, One Lord Jesus Christ

One God The Father, One Lord Jesus Christ “But if anyone loves God (τὸν Θεόν), the same is known by him. Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God (θεος) but one (εἷς). For though there are things...

www.talkjesus.com

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God It is argued by some, that verses in the Bible, like John 17:3, where the Father is called, “The only True God”; and Romans 16:27, where the Father is called, “God only wise”; that Jesus Christ is not “God” (ὁ θεὸς), because in these passages, the Father is...

www.talkjesus.com

The LORD said to My LORD…

The LORD said to My LORD… “Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to him, “The son of David.”( Matthew 22:41-42). How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David...

www.talkjesus.com

But again, you're relying on inference. What I presented are clear statements. Paul said to the Corinthians, "to us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ". There's no need to infer anything here. He states it outright. The one God is the Father. And, he contrasts the one God with Jesus Christ. So, he not only tells us that there is one God and it's the Father. He specifically excludes Jesus Christ from the one God. If Paul is correct then there is no possibility of a three coequal persons called God.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

But again, you're relying on inference. What I presented are clear statements. Paul said to the Corinthians, "to us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ". There's no need to infer anything here. He states it outright. The one God is the Father. And, he contrasts the one God with Jesus Christ. So, he not only tells us that there is one God and it's the Father. He specifically excludes Jesus Christ from the one God. If Paul is correct then there is no possibility of a three coequal persons called God.

you are reading into what the Bible actually says. Note what Paul is saying:

"ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς Θεὸς ὁ Πατήρ, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν, καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ",

The literal English is:

"But to us one God the Father, out of Who the all things, and we for Him. And one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom the all things, and we by Him"

Paul does not say, "the is one God Who is the Father, and one Lord Who is Jesus Christ", which is what you are trying to force these words to say! There is only one Who is God the Father, and one Who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:1, 18, for example, is very clear, that the Father is not ALONE God, because in both verses, as elsewhere, Jesus Christ is also called God!

 

[Butch5]

you are reading into what the Bible actually says. Note what Paul is saying:

"ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς Θεὸς ὁ Πατήρ, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν, καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ",

The literal English is:

"But to us one God the Father, out of Who the all things, and we for Him. And one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom the all things, and we by Him"

Paul does not say, "the is one God Who is the Father, and one Lord Who is Jesus Christ", which is what you are trying to force these words to say! There is only one Who is God the Father, and one Who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Really? It seems to say that in the literal translation you gave us. You're translation starts "but to us one God the Father". In context Paul is contrasting the many gods of the pagans and the one God of the Christians.

John 1:1, 18, for example, is very clear, that the Father is not ALONE God, because in both verses, as elsewhere, Jesus Christ is also called God!

John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus is God. It says the Word (Jesus) "WAS" God. It's past tense. I'm not sure how you see verse 18 as saying Jesus is God. However, I never argued that point. What I've stated is that Jesus is not "The" God.

Also, If we look at John 1:1 we see that John says, 'in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with "the" God and the Word was God. Notice John uses the definite article when he says the Word was with "the" God. Yet, when he says the Word was God he doesn't use the definite article. He is not saying the Word is "the" God., but rather is just God. Again, going back to how the word God is used in different senses also seen here. If John wanted to say Jesus is "the" God he could have. But, he didn't. Instead he left out the definite article when speaking of Jesus.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

Actually, that's not the verse I'm referring to.

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6 KJV)

John 1:1

what are you on about? I gave the Greek for 1 Cor 8:6, and the literal English translation, which is the verse in discussion?

You refer to John 1:1, but say nothing? verse 1 and 18 have TWO distinct Persons Who are equally GOD

 

[Butch5]

what are you on about? I gave the Greek for 1 Cor 8:6, and the literal English translation, which is the verse in discussion?

You refer to John 1:1, but say nothing? verse 1 and 18 have TWO distinct Persons Who are equally GOD

That post was a mistake. I have edited it. It posted before I was finished.

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

Really? It seems to say that in the literal translation you gave us. You're translation starts "but to us one God the Father". In context Paul is contrasting the many gods of the pagans and the one God of the Christians.

John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus is God. It says the Word (Jesus) "WAS" God. It's past tense. I'm not sure how you see verse 18 as saying Jesus is God. However, I never argued that point. What I've stated is that Jesus is not "The" God.

Also, If we look at John 1:1 we see that John says, 'in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with "the" God and the Word was God. Notice John uses the definite article when he says the Word was with "the" God. Yet, when he says the Word was God he doesn't use the definite article. He is not saying the Word is "the" God., but rather is just God. Again, going back to how the word God is used in different senses also seen here. If John wanted to say Jesus is "the" God he could have. But, he didn't. Instead he left out the definite article when speaking of Jesus.

sadly the English often does not say what the Hebrew or Greek does.

More on John 1:1 and 18, can be seen in my latest thread, God…Unique God

You saying, that because Jesus is called "Θεός", and not "ὁ Θεός", that He is "God", but not "the God"? So, we have 1 Who is "The God", and another, Who is "God"?

in John 20:28, when Thomas addresses the Risen Jesus, he says directly to Jesus, "Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου", which can only be translated, "my Lord and My God". You will notice the definite article used here, "ὁ Θεός"

In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father addresses Jesus, "Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς", which is, "Your Throne O God", again the Greek article is used.

in John 8:54, Jesus says to the Jews, "ἔστιν ὁ Πατήρ μου ὁ δοξάζων με, ὃν ὑμεῖς λέγετε ὅτι Θεὸς ἡμῶν ἐστιν", literally, "it is My Father Who Glorifies Me, Whom you say that He is your God". The construction here is like John 1:1, where "ὁ Πατήρ", is the subject, and has the Greek article, as in 1:1, "ὁ Λόγος", The Word is the subject and has the article. In both verses, you will notice that "Θεὸς", used for the Father (8:54) and Jesus Christ (1:1), the article is not used, because in both places the noun "Θεὸς" in the predicate in the sentence.

In John 1:18, as I have shown, in my thread, both uses of "Θεὸς", don't have the Greek article

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5


Greetings,

Thus we are given this Wind or Breath to assist us in living holy.

forgive my 'late' picking up on this thread. We do not have to continue it if so desired , however, may i ask regarding the above quote from you....

is this actually correct?

If we consider the ransom and redemption and propitiation and sanctification and salvation part of the Christian 'us' , is 'assistance' all that is 'given' ?


Pray all is well for you


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Regarding the Trinity....

to all, greetings,

if we consider a candle or lamp form days of old, what does it do and what does it consist of, in entirety both to and for the one(s) who are given it?

-------

we might also consider the next meal we eat.... providing it is not a single ingredient dish! I'll let you, the reader, experiment with that thought. (don't forget to thank the Lord for your food, even after eating.


Bless you ....><>

 

[watertolive]

Greetings

And they are not " persons",
the Word tells us plainly,
God is Spirit.

All praise glory and honor be unto God.

 

[B-A-C]

the Word tells us plainly,
God is Spirit.

It does, but it also says..

John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14; And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1Jn 4:1; Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2; By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
1Jn 4:3; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Col 2:9; For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Luke 24:39; "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:40; And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

 

[Br. Bear]

Regarding the Trinity....

to all, greetings,

if we consider a candle or lamp form days of old, what does it do and what does it consist of, in entirety both to and for the one(s) who are given it?

ps.. hint....
Which bit is the Light?

hint: there are three 'parts'


[you can use a modern household electric light, if you prefer to meditate upon that]


Bless you ....><>