Angels on the head of a pin

[Brad Huber]

When I was younger, the question "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" typically was a retort to when someone asks a what if question about something that had no definitive answer, and yet people love those questions and are more willing to talk about that than important things or even everyday things. Am I the only one that feels that question rolling around inside my head often here on TJ? I dont say it because its considered rude to point it out, and sometimes the questions are sincere, but I think lots of time, people just want to bring up controversial topics to see how many hits they get and stir up conversation. I guess I am sort of a stick in the mud. I like good worship music, listening to it now, and looking for interesting topics here that are "real" questions, and not preaching "this is my truth, make it yours".

 

[B-A-C]

I guess I am sort of a stick in the mud. I like good worship music, listening to it now, and looking for interesting topics here that are "real" questions, and not preaching "this is my truth, make it yours".

For the most part I agree with what you say here. On the other hand, you are certainly free to open up any new topics you feel are interesting and "real".
It's certainly true that there are many questions and topics here that have little to do with Jesus, or the Bible, or even salvation in general.

I also agree there are some who simply want to debate for the sake of debate, some of them don't even really a point or a truth they are trying to prove. They just want to keep the dissent going.

Perhaps some are new an uncomfortable talking about "deep subjects".
Others don't even know what the deep subjects are yet.

Then of course there are the "experts", I assume these are some of the people you are talking about. They know everything about everything. I have been called a "know it all" and I'm OK with that.
The truth is, I don't know everything about everything... but I will say this. There are no relative truths. There is no "my truth" and "your truth". There is only "THE" truth.

So in all sincerity, what are some of the subjects/topics you consider interesting and important?

 

[Brad Huber]

I dont consider you a know it all. I simply consider you someone who is very knowledgeable about scripture, but with all the frailties that befall mankind. I dont know what your frailties are, and dont really want to know. I do like how you respond to most all questions and add scripture. At one time, you just posted scripture mostly, and to me that wasnt a good reply. I think its better to post the scripture and then say why you think that scripture is relevant. But I have seen you do that more so recently.

An more obvious example would be someone I know that wanted everyone to agree that it was not 3 days that Jesus was in the tomb. How does that edify the body of believers (the church)? As to the assumption that posting scripture makes your assumption correct is only right most of the time. There is many scriptures that seem to be at odds with others selection of scripture. Discounting intellectual ways of looking at the variety of scriptures that discuss a subject reminds me of the pharisees who "want" to see things a certain way. They knew the scriptures and yet, did not see how Jesus could be the Christ , the savior they were looking for. So knowing scripture well obviously isnt enough. Its allowing the Holy Spirit to motivate you to understand both scriptures, history, "if" you think it may be true, and understand why things might be the way they are, how things were written at the time of scripture, and what they inferred in the original language was written in. It all comes back to Jesus telling us, He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us, if you arent using the Holy Spirit in your questions and answers, you are doing it on your own power, which may be right and may be not right. Its the biggest fault of the broken church IMO.

But I do like how you respond to questions with scripture, because thats typically what most people want. They dont care if the Holy tells me the answer to their question, if they dont read it in scripture, its just not valid in their mind. I understand they dont want to believe someone just because they "say" the Holy Spirit motivated them, and yet... they dont use the Holy Spirit as the guide that would lead them to the answer. They fall into the trap the pharisees did, the answer to everything will be found in scripture. If that were true, why bother with the Holy Spirit? Why would Jesus tell us He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us in all things? Is that scripture not as weighty as others?

 

[Brad Huber]

The topics that intrests me is personal things, what makes people tick. And of course the use of the Holy Spirit more in the Church today. Yet when I bring the subject up, no one comments much. People dont like to talk about things that are more important like that. There is nothing "deep" to me, there is simply what I know and what I dont know. Just calling something "deep" tells me someone is focused on the intellectual portion usually, not saying that is true with you, but its common to most. Intellectuals are not the saviors of the christian faith. Its men of faith. And yet despite the truth of those words, intellectual dividing of the word of God is the most popular thing with a lot of people. Have you ever seen something good come from dividing (division)? Well God's division is righteous and good, but He knows better than us, that I know for sure.

 

[B-A-C]

There is many scriptures that seem to be at odds with others selection of scripture.

To be honest, I've never seen it. Everytime people try to prove this to me, it fails.

He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us, if you arent using the Holy Spirit in your questions and answers, you are doing it on your own power, which may be right and may be not right. Its the biggest fault of the broken church IMO.

The proverbial elephant in the room. The nail on the head as it were. I like that, straight to the point.

The Spirit does indeed teach us and guide us.
John 14:26; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

But He also brings to remembrance what Jesus said and taught ( things we read in the Bible ) so I think they work together.

Still you have a VERY valid point. Some people feel this way about a subject and others feel another way about a subject.
In my mind, "most" of these things don't matter. Did Jesus rise at exactly 72 hours from His death? Maybe, but does your salvation depend on knowing that? The important thing is... He rose again.

If God isn't the author of confusion, and we are all supposed to be unity... then why aren't we?
I think you are correct.... some are led by the Spirit and some aren't. Of course everyone claims to be led by the Spirit, so how do you know?

First the Holy Spirit will never say anything that disagrees with the Bible. This is why I like scripture... it's a good plumb line.

But the Bible also gives us guideline to tell if people are walking in the Spirit.

Rom 8:4; so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:25; If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

I often hear people tell me... I sin all the time, as much as I want.... but I'm in the Spirit, .. I'm led by the Spirit. *Buzz* An easy thing to spot.
So there is always the Galatians 5 test.

Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25; If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Verse 22.. the fruit of the Spirit is.... I read peoples posts.... is love in this post? Is joy? Is peace? Is kindness? Is gentleness and self-control?
I have actually read posts like "I don't what all you idiots are doing, but I'm led by the Spirit". *Buzz* I can feel the love, joy and peace in that post. I know you've seen them too.

Verse 19 the deeds of the flesh are.... Again I read peoples posts.... are they encouraging and supporting sexual immorality? Is there enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger?
Are there disputes, dissensions? Are they trying to tell a Spiritual truth, or are they trying to stir up trouble. It's easy to tell, to those who have been trained in discernment. ( Heb 5:14; )

Sometimes a post can look godly, and peaceably.. but it doesn't agree with scripture, then it's not the Spirit.
I'm seen these posts also.. I'm living with my girlfriend/boyfriend, or I'm in a homosexual relationship, or I run a head shop/bar but hey.. I'm led by the Spirit, the Spirit is leading me in doing this. *Buzz*

Generally people who are being led by the flesh, and bullying, impatient, itching for a fight. Just waiting for you to say something wrong. (even if it isn't really "wrong").
You better believe what I believe... if you don't you're stupid. You're confused. I don't really have any scripture to support my side. (maybe half a verse taken out of context)
but hey, all the rest of you retards just don't get it. *Buzz* Now maybe it isn't those exact words... but the sentiment is there.

Another thing to look for is... are they trying to downplay sin? Are they encouraging it? Are they saying God is OK with it?
Yes, I believe in forgiveness, grace and mercy... we are allowed to stumble, we don't have to be perfect... but is your message mercy for stumbling... or just go ahead and sin all you want, God doesn't care? *Buzz*

Sorry for rambling here. But these are good questions that people don't want to talk about.

 

[B-A-C]

The topics that intrests me is personal things, what makes people tick. And of course the use of the Holy Spirit more in the Church today. Yet when I bring the subject up, no one comments much. People dont like to talk about things that are more important like that. There is nothing "deep" to me,

Sorry, I didn't mean "deep" as in some unknowbale mystery. I just meant "meat and not milk" type of thing.
It's an old term from King James. ( 1Cor 2:10; )

As almost everyone here knows. I'm a charismatic Pentecostal. So the use of the Holy Spirit is the core of the Pentecostal doctrine.
The gifts of the Spirit are one those things that seems to divide us. That entire 1Cor chapters 12 & 14 is something that scares some people who aren't familiar with it.
Some churches even teach none of that applies to us anymore. Then there is Galatians 5 fruit of the Spirit, which I believe is more of an individual thing, than a church thing.
You specifically mentioned "in the church" (as in the church body?)

Myself and others have tried to start some of these threads, but it seems (Satan?) or someone tries to bury them as quickly as possible.
Have you ever wondered why threads about purgatory and 6th day crucifixions linger, but threads about the Holy Spirit and sin disappear quickly?
I have wondered if the people that "say" they have the Holy Spirit, have ever really stopped an examined themselves.

Tongues? no.
Miracles? no.
Interpretations? no.
Prophecy? no.
Divine healings? no.

Supernatural love? no.
Peace? no.
Joy? no.
Kindness? no.
Sin less? no.
Stopped sexual sins? no.

but hey... I'm full of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brad Huber]

I have wondered if the people that "say" they have the Holy Spirit, have ever really stopped an examined themselves.

Well again, the body of Christ has caused this. Because its commonly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. I dont disagree with this, to me, its one of those things that dont really matter whether its true or not. What is important is that we 'are' to utilize it. How can we do so, when the church in general (and yes, charismatic churchs are better at this) is afraid of it. "I received the Holy Spirit at conversion, so of course I have it." (as they have been taught). If it is received at conversion then it doesnt force itself upon you. You must learn about it, you must exercise it like a muscle in using your spiritual gifts, pray more, ask for help from God about it. The bad thing about pentacostals is that most I have run into sort of look down on you if you dont speak in tongues. They act as if that is the elite gift when its described as the least. The other problem I have seen with pentacostals is they tend to emotionalism (which has often led to extra marital sex) because of the joy they receive in their worship. Like I said we all are broken in some way, I try to avoid focusing on others faults, unless they are often busy pointing out other peoples faults, which is certainly not the right reason to do so, again, unless being led by the Holy Spirit at the time, we are doing it in our own power. But I was bullied a lot when younger, and when I see or hear bullying spiritually done to others, I nearly always jump at the chance to bully them back. I also tend to assume that wealthy christian people trust in money more than the Lord or look down on poorer christians as not being blessed by God and hence more sinful. Again, that is a fault with me, God calls all, and we all are faulty, its a form of bullying though, and as I said about bullying.....

Now my words on the few faults of the pentacostals, is from my experience, what I have seen with my own eyes. That being said, they are still better overall I think because more of them focus on the Holy Spirit in our lives.

 

[Brad Huber]

Oh, and whenever I say the church, I mean the body of Christ; if I am speaking about a branch of christianity, I will say either some churches or point out the ones I speak of.

 

[Brad Huber]

Oh, and my thoughts on parts of scripture that support opposing views are...
I have seen it, but I trust God that there is a reason why, and I will trust God to make it clear to me if I am wrong, and sometimes He tells me, "I love people very much from both camps on the subject, dont let it worry you. So I dont.

 

[B-A-C]

Well again, the body of Christ has caused this. Because its commonly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. I dont disagree with this, to me, its one of those things that dont really matter whether its true or not.

There are at least 3 trains of thought on this.
In the in-filling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are the same thing and happen at the same time during initial conversion.
The in-filling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are separate events that can happen (and usually do) separately.
In the in-filling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are the same thing and happens at some period after you have been saved for a while.

There are really only 5 passages in the Bible that talk about the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit. Now maybe that's the same thing as the "in-filling" of the Holy Spirit, but if it is... consider this.

In Acts 1:15; it says about 120 people were in the upper room before the day of Pentecost. They were all believers, including the disciples who had followed Jesus for the last 3 years.
But none of them had ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit until the upper room event in Acts 2.

Now I suppose you could say, this was an exception, this was the very first time.. and it never happened like this again... but you would be wrong.

Consider the Samaritans in Acts 8:14-17; they had already been baptized at some point in the past, so they have obviously been believers for some period of time.
But it says here that the Holy Spirit had never fallen on any of them before.

Consider the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19:1-10; Again these people had already been baptized "unto to repentance" at some earlier date. Likely when John the baptist was still alive.
But they had never been baptized in the Holy Spirit. (they didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit) This was Paul doing this. At least 14 years after the upper room event in Acts 2.
(Paul wasn't even a Christian when Acts 2 happened)

Consider Cornelius in Acts 10:1-4; He was a believer who prayed to God, and even talked to the Lord in Acts 10:4; But He was never baptized with the Holy Spirit
until 40 verses later ( Acts 10:44-48; ) He was the first Gentile in the Bible to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (so it wasn't just for Jews or apostles or anything like that).

Then we have Paul himself on the road to Damascus. He meets Jesus and Jesus blinds him. He stays this way for three days, until he meets Ananias (on straight street).
It isn't until he meets Ananias that he is baptized in the Holy Spirit.

So there you have it. No one in the Bible received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the exact same moment they were saved.

Luke 11:13; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

Have you ever asked? (Not you as in Brad, but you as in anyone reading this). If not, maybe it's time. What's the harm in asking?
Maybe you think you already have it (trust me, you would know) but even if you do.. what's the harm in asking?

Rom 8:9; However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

 

[Brad Huber]

You are more studied than I, is there any instance other than the upper room, where the Holy Spirit wasnt received by the laying on of hands, so to speak transfering a portion to the new person, where both can grow?

 

[Gregoryp]

When I was younger, the question "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" typically was a retort to when someone asks a what if question about something that had no definitive answer, and yet people love those questions and are more willing to talk about that than important things or even everyday things. Am I the only one that feels that question rolling around inside my head often here on TJ? I dont say it because its considered rude to point it out, and sometimes the questions are sincere, but I think lots of time, people just want to bring up controversial topics to see how many hits they get and stir up conversation. I guess I am sort of a stick in the mud. I like good worship music, listening to it now, and looking for interesting topics here that are "real" questions, and not preaching "this is my truth, make it yours".

Amen to that.I find that many times in all sorts of forums, the australian bus enthusiast forum even. I mean really, which is the best bus ever made? What sort of a dumbass question is that? And of course all it does it cause controversy and great animosity between people. This of course happens here as well. Best to avoid such topics and do what we came here to do, lift each other up, share testimonies and help spread the word. BTW the best Australian bus is an Austral Tourmaster 3 axle, and I dont want anyone to disagree with me thanks.

 

[Brad Huber]

Amen to that.I find that many times in all sorts of forums, the australian bus enthusiast forum even. I mean really, which is the best bus ever made? What sort of a dumbass question is that? And of course all it does it cause controversy and great animosity between people. This of course happens here as well. Best to avoid such topics and do what we came here to do, lift each other up, share testimonies and help spread the word. BTW the best Australian bus is an Austral Tourmaster 3 axle, and I dont want anyone to disagree with me thanks.

LOL I wouldnt dare disagree and say that greyhound buses are better (because I have rarely used them mostly and also I have only ridden on about 4 or 5 different types of buses, dont know any of their model names).

 

[B-A-C]

You are more studied than I, is there any instance other than the upper room, where the Holy Spirit wasnt received by the laying on of hands, so to speak transfering a portion to the new person, where both can grow?

Very good question; possibly Cornelius?

Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:17; Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 9:17; So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Acts 19:2; He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3; And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4; Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19:7; There were in all about twelve men.

Acts 8:18; Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

1Tim 4:14; Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

 

[B-A-C]

You got me thinking here... (that's good)

Acts 10:11; and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
Acts 10:12; and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
Acts 10:13; A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!"
Acts 10:14; But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean."
Acts 10:15; Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."
Acts 10:16; This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.
Acts 10:17; Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate;

I've always considered this passage had nothing to do with the Gentiles, but rather with food. The Jews were now allowed to eat food that they weren't allowed to eat under the old testament.
But is it possible?........ Is is possible, that Peter didn't lay hands on the Gentiles because they were considered "unclean"?

More research on this is needed.

Timothy was of mixed race.
Acts 16:1; Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek,

1Tim 4:14; Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

 

[Bill]

Very good question; possibly Cornelius?

Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:17; Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 9:17; So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Acts 19:2; He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3; And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4; Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19:7; There were in all about twelve men.

Acts 8:18; Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

1Tim 4:14; Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit in him in his mothers womb

 

[B-A-C]

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit in him in his mothers womb

I concede that one, but on the other hand, there wasn't really a moment of conversion for him.

 

[Bill]

When I was younger, the question "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" typically was a retort to when someone asks a what if question about something that had no definitive answer, and yet people love those questions and are more willing to talk about that than important things or even everyday things. Am I the only one that feels that question rolling around inside my head often here on TJ? I dont say it because its considered rude to point it out, and sometimes the questions are sincere, but I think lots of time, people just want to bring up controversial topics to see how many hits they get and stir up conversation. I guess I am sort of a stick in the mud. I like good worship music, listening to it now, and looking for interesting topics here that are "real" questions, and not preaching "this is my truth, make it yours".

I love reading the interaction you have with B. A. C. . Sometimes i would like to be there too. Lol .

I guess i am too much the stick in the mud. Or that my lifes experiences make it difficult.

I once had a preacher tell me that i could not join thier group . ( Charismatics ) because he was afraid i would blow them all away.
Another time i asked a friend of mine if i could pray with his " special " group . He said no.
The next day i met my friend and told him all they talked about at thier meeting . He asked me , how can you possibly know all that. I said, God knows all your secrets.

 

[Bill]

I concede that one, but on the other hand, there wasn't really a moment of conversion for him.

Do you really want to know the others ( in Scripture) , who had the Holy Spirit in them , without the Laying of hands .
Or do you make boundries for what God can do.

Samson , Elijah , Moses , etc

 

[Bill]

I concede that one, but on the other hand, there wasn't really a moment of conversion for him.

Im not trying to be argumentative, but so many state everything must be done this way . But it isnt Gods way