Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

[PloughBoy]

Yes but I don’t see how that applies to the discussion. God clearly revealed Himself as Father and Son in Genesis, through His creation of two persons as man.

That is how God communicate with us through His Word. ❤ That is one reason Jesus told his Disciples that he had many things to tell them but they could not understand them yet. “Nicodemus you Must be “Born from Above” He that is born by his father and in the water of his mother’s womb is earthly they only knows about earthly things but he that is “born from above” is spiritual and born of God and receives the things of God because they are spiritual discern. So Nicodemus, trouble yourself not. You are not going to understand neither can you, I used the word (can) because you 1st must have the Ability to understand. The Bible says: no one Can [have the Ability] come to Christ unless the Father draws him. The Greek word for draws in this verse means drag. In this verse, drags in Calvinese language means “Irresistible Grace”. It is a Gift from GOD, less any man should boast. It is not earn by works nor [will of man] but of God. You had nothing to do with your human birth neither do you have anything to do with your spiritual birth. It is The Sovereignty of GOD. We have something to rejoice about! It is all God it is nothing we have done. Romans 9 chapter need not to be explained, it speaks clearly.
Shalom Jerusalem ❤

 

[Sue D.]

When a person accepts Christ as personal Savior -- the Holy Spirit part of the trinity comes to indwell the person -- thus, we have the Fruits of spirit as are seen in Galations 5:22,23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

'This' probably doesn't belong in This particular thread but it fits with PloughBoy's comment.

 

[Dave M]

I used the word (can) because you 1st must have the Ability to understand. The Bible says: no one Can [have the Ability] come to Christ unless the Father draws him. The Greek word for draws in this verse means drag. In this verse, drags in Calvinese language means “Irresistible Grace”. It is a Gift from GOD, less any man should boast. It is not earn by works nor [will of man] but of God. You had nothing to do with your human birth neither do you have anything to do with your spiritual birth. It is The Sovereignty of GOD.

this is why all the false teachers out there get Jesus wrong and dont understand he is God in the flesh, IMO

 

[Sue D.]

There are no third person, brother. When God created mankind, He created Adam and Eve, (two persons), not Adam, Eve and Steve. The Father was speaking to His Son (two persons) and there was no third person there.

God's creation of Adam and Eve were for the purpose of keeping the generation of people going. Male and female 'coming together' = baby and the beginning of that next generation. And That process has nothing to do with the trinity.

Except for the Fact that the Holy Spirit Did come upon Mary in order to produce Jesus Christ -- so that the disciples , etc Would know Him as both a human man and as their promised Messiah / the Son of God.

 

[Curtis]

I do not know if this scripture has already been posted.....

Luk 13:1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
Luk 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

All meaning all, not some.

 

[Brother Paul]

You have forgotten that an essential part of the trinity false doctrine is that it says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are EQUAL. The Gospel shows that even the Father is not equal to the Son.

My Father is GREATER than I. - Jesus

The HEAD of Christ is God. - Paul

Yes YHVH, the Father, IS greater then the man Christ Jesus (who will be killed and hung on a cross)....and yes the head of the man Christ Jesus IS God (YHVH) and He does His will and speaks His words and performs His acts....but in Him the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily, for God( (YHVH) was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself. .He is God (YHVH) WITH us (Deity and humanity as one). He IS the brightness of His Glory and express image of His person, incarnate in the flesh.

As YHVH, the Son (the Deity), He is the Creator and King of all the angels (who bow down and worship Him) - see Hebrews 1

and as the man Christ Jesus (of the seed of Mary) He is a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2)....

 

[Butch5]

The Trinity that many Christians hold to says that there is one God who consists of three persons. Do we find this in the Scripture? No. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says there is one God who consists of three persons. So what do we find in the Scripture? We find the Father and the Son. I would submit that the Holy Spirit which is mentioned in the Scriptures is a limited manifestation of the Father. Let's look at the Scriptures.

Jesus said that God was His Father. So, the Father is the Father of Jesus. However, we see in Scripture that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived. But, Jesus said God was His Father. The only way to reconcile this is if the Holy Spirit is the Father. Paul also speaks of the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Let's continue.

But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Lk. 11:20 KJV)

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. (Matt. 12:28 KJV)

Here we have the same event from two different Gospel writers. According to Luke, Jesus cast out devils by the finger of God. Mathew says it was by the Holy Spirit. How do we reconcile these passages? Either one of them is wrong, or the Father is the Holy Spirit. Let's continue.

Jesus said no one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matt. 11:27 KJV)

So, how is there a third person that doesn't know the Father or the Son? Supposedly there is a third person in the Godhead, yet he doesn't know the Father or the Son.

In this Trinity it is said that there is one God in three persons. Is there one being called God? In the Old Testament, God was called Jehovah, In Genesis we see the Lord and three angels appear to Abram. The two angels go on ahead to Sodom and Gomorrah to get Lot out of the city. The Lord remains with Abram. After speaking with Abram the Lord goes on to Sodom and Gomorrah. This is what we find.

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (Gen. 19:24 KJV)

In this verse the word LORD is capitalized because it is the word Jehovah. So, in this passage we have Jehovah on earth calling down fire and brimstone from Jehovah in Heaven. We have two beings both called Jehovah. Two beings called God.

If there are three persons in the Godhead, We have to wonder why Paul doesn't mention the third one in his greetings. When Paul writes to the churches his greeting is always something to the effect, grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. One has to wonder why Paul never mentions grace and peace from the Holy Spirit, if the Spirit is a third person.

We don't have to wonder why Paul does this. We can see what he believed simply by looking at his words to the Corinthians. He said to them, 'to us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Again, no mention of a third person. But his statement is crystal clear, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. He didn't say there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He said, one God, the Father.

If there is a Trinity of three coequal persons, how does Jesus, the Son, have a God? If Jesus has a God then that God is higher than Jesus, not coequal.

When we look at the Scriptures we find that the word Spirit is in the neuter gender. It should be translated as "it". If your translation says "he" when referring to the Spirit it is wrong. The word spirit is not masculine. The only place that the spirit is referred to as he that is correct is when Jesus speaks of the comforter. However, the pronoun is masculine because the word comforter is masculine and the Greek language requires that the pronoun match the noun in gender.

We can also look at the historical evidence. We don't find this idea of one God in three coequal, co-eternal persons until around the late 4th or early 5th century. I appears in the Athanasian Creed. So, the Trinity is not in the Bible, not mentioned by Jesus or the apostles, and doesn't appear until around the 4th century. I think the evidence against it is overwhelming

 

[Brother Paul]

The Trinity that many Christians hold to says that there is one God who consists of three persons. Do we find this in the Scripture? No. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says there is one God who consists of three persons. So what do we find in the Scripture? We find the Father and the Son. I would submit that the Holy Spirit which is mentioned in the Scriptures is a limited manifestation of the Father. Let's look at the Scriptures.

Jesus said that God was His Father. So, the Father is the Father of Jesus. However, we see in Scripture that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived. But, Jesus said God was His Father. The only way to reconcile this is if the Holy Spirit is the Father. Paul also speaks of the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Let's continue.

But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Lk. 11:20 KJV)

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. (Matt. 12:28 KJV)

Here we have the same event from two different Gospel writers. According to Luke, Jesus cast out devils by the finger of God. Mathew says it was by the Holy Spirit. How do we reconcile these passages? Either one of them is wrong, or the Father is the Holy Spirit. Let's continue.

Jesus said no one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matt. 11:27 KJV)

So, how is there a third person that doesn't know the Father or the Son? Supposedly there is a third person in the Godhead, yet he doesn't know the Father or the Son.

In this Trinity it is said that there is one God in three persons. Is there one being called God? In the Old Testament, God was called Jehovah, In Genesis we see the Lord and three angels appear to Abram. The two angels go on ahead to Sodom and Gomorrah to get Lot out of the city. The Lord remains with Abram. After speaking with Abram the Lord goes on to Sodom and Gomorrah. This is what we find.

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (Gen. 19:24 KJV)

In this verse the word LORD is capitalized because it is the word Jehovah. So, in this passage we have Jehovah on earth calling down fire and brimstone from Jehovah in Heaven. We have two beings both called Jehovah. Two beings called God.

If there are three persons in the Godhead, We have to wonder why Paul doesn't mention the third one in his greetings. When Paul writes to the churches his greeting is always something to the effect, grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. One has to wonder why Paul never mentions grace and peace from the Holy Spirit, if the Spirit is a third person.

We don't have to wonder why Paul does this. We can see what he believed simply by looking at his words to the Corinthians. He said to them, 'to us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Again, no mention of a third person. But his statement is crystal clear, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. He didn't say there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He said, one God, the Father.

If there is a Trinity of three coequal persons, how does Jesus, the Son, have a God? If Jesus has a God then that God is higher than Jesus, not coequal.

When we look at the Scriptures we find that the word Spirit is in the neuter gender. It should be translated as "it". If your translation says "he" when referring to the Spirit it is wrong. The word spirit is not masculine. The only place that the spirit is referred to as he that is correct is when Jesus speaks of the comforter. However, the pronoun is masculine because the word comforter is masculine and the Greek language requires that the pronoun match the noun in gender.

We can also look at the historical evidence. We don't find this idea of one God in three coequal, co-eternal persons until around the late 4th or early 5th century. I appears in the Athanasian Creed. So, the Trinity is not in the Bible, not mentioned by Jesus or the apostles, and doesn't appear until around the 4th century. I think the evidence against it is overwhelming

The idea of persons as western thinkers understand this term was a transliteration...the idea of one ousia in three hypostases, in Latin was translated as three persona (an aspect of someone's character that is presented to or perceived by others)...not meant to be understood as three different people. God is not a corporate unity except perhaps in a secondary sense...there is only one YHVH and the one YHVH IS the Father, the Son, and the Spirit

 

[Butch5]

The idea of persons as western thinkers understand this term was a transliteration...the idea of one ousia in three hypostases, in Latin was translated as three persona (an aspect of someone's character that is presented to or perceived by others)...not meant to be understood as three different people. God is not a corporate unity except perhaps in a secondary sense...there is only one YHVH and the one YHVH IS the Father, the Son, and the Spirit

Hi Brother Paul,

In your other post it appeared that you were suggesting Modalism. That's the idea that God is a being who reveals Himself as the Father at times, the Son at other times, and Spirit at other times. If that is what you are suggesting, it was rejected by the early church. I think the evidence from Scripture is pretty sound showing that the Father and the Spirit are the same. Also, as Gen 19 shows us, there were two beings referred to as Jehovah.

 

[Enxu]

That is how God communicate with us through His Word. ❤ That is one reason Jesus told his Disciples that he had many things to tell them but they could not understand them yet. “Nicodemus you Must be “Born from Above” He that is born by his father and in the water of his mother’s womb is earthly they only knows about earthly things but he that is “born from above” is spiritual and born of God and receives the things of God because they are spiritual discern. So Nicodemus, trouble yourself not. You are not going to understand neither can you, I used the word (can) because you 1st must have the Ability to understand. The Bible says: no one Can [have the Ability] come to Christ unless the Father draws him. The Greek word for draws in this verse means drag. In this verse, drags in Calvinese language means “Irresistible Grace”. It is a Gift from GOD, less any man should boast. It is not earn by works nor [will of man] but of God. You had nothing to do with your human birth neither do you have anything to do with your spiritual birth. It is The Sovereignty of GOD. We have something to rejoice about! It is all God it is nothing we have done. Romans 9 chapter need not to be explained, it speaks clearly.
Shalom Jerusalem ❤

The teachings of Calvinism are also man-made and false. If people insist on being extra biblical and hold firmly to man made doctrines then they have only themselves to blame if they are deceived.

 

[PloughBoy]

I think the problems comes in trying to define God in human terms which is impossible. The is why we must use human terms “Anthropomorphic words” that is why we use the word “Trinity “ It is a Anthropomorphic Word. The word God is Anthropomorphic . We are human, God is not. We know the world do not understand us, heck we do not understand us! We search for words to express, this rushing wind, pneumatic as in theology, this Advocate, Paraclete that helps us to convey at the proper time. This is not easy, only we of the circumcision knows what we are trying to convey to the masses. But our citizenship is not here our countrymen are not here our language is not here, we our pilgrims in a strange land, traveling through to a destination , determine by GOD before the foundation of the world.

 

[Curtis]

I think the problems comes in trying to define God in human terms which is impossible. The is why we must use human terms “Anthropomorphic words” that is why we use the word “Trinity “ It is a Anthropomorphic Word. The word God is Anthropomorphic . We are human, God is not. We know the world do not understand us, heck we do not understand us! We search for words to express, this rushing wind, pneumatic as in theology, this Advocate, Paraclete that helps us to convey at the proper time. This is not easy, only we of the circumcision knows what we are trying to convey to the masses. But our citizenship is not here our countrymen are not here our language is not here, we our pilgrims in a strange land, traveling through to a destination , determine by GOD before the foundation of the world.❤

I think the problem is trying to explain spiritual things, and a being (God) using man's wisdom which does not work unless the other person has the Spirit of God in them.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

If the person on the other end of a conversation does not understand the language of "faith" which how we understand (Heb 11:3) , it is simply casting our pearls to swine.

Man's wisdom and understanding do not produce faith, it is "faith" the produces understanding.

 

[Brother Paul]

Hi Brother Paul,

In your other post it appeared that you were suggesting Modalism. That's the idea that God is a being who reveals Himself as the Father at times, the Son at other times, and Spirit at other times. If that is what you are suggesting, it was rejected by the early church. I think the evidence from Scripture is pretty sound showing that the Father and the Spirit are the same. Also, as Gen 19 shows us, there were two beings referred to as Jehovah.

First of all, great conversation Butch! I agree in Genesis 19 we read two being called YHVH, but they are not two separate people just the one God unmanifesst and manifest (as well as the early pre-Christian Jews who saw two who were referred to as YHVH in this passage. The Targum Jonathan calls the one on earth that Abraham can see and hear "the Words of YHVH".. but they are not implying there are two separate people named YHVH (there is only one YHVH and there is none else).

Secondly I am not a Modalist who would say they appear in different modes at different times, I am what the Nicene fathers defined as a Trinitarian as the one God is eternally the three persona. I know it is difficult for most people to grasp and no human language is perfectly adequate to explain the concept as originally defined but later when Augustine was asked he gave this SIMILE to try and convey the understanding (he was NOT a Modalist). He described the tri-une nature of the one and ONLY one God (YHVH) as being like unto the Sun. We KNOW there is only one Sun (not three) but the essence of the Sun was not personally knowable (like the Father) until it is revealed by the Fire of itself (like the Word/Son) which we can see and know and finally the heat and light which we can feel and experience but cannot see personally is like unto the Spirit. Now I know this is still somewhat inadequate but it still was only one Sun (not in different Modes). So what I am suggesting was NOT rejected by the early church, but is exactly what the early Church taught. The separation into 3 separate people as we define people today came later in Middle ages Catholicism. Athanasius tells us we worship the one God in three persona and the three persona in unity, and that we must not confuse the order.

Now consider Isaiah 48:15-17 as we approach this section in context it is apparent that the one and only YHVH of Israel is speaking to and through the Prophet. Then we read:

"I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come near unto me and hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, has sent me. Thus saith the Lord (YHVH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God (YHVH-Elohim) which teaches you to profit, which leads you by the way that you should go.

The implication here is that YHVH who sends (who we cannot see or hear, all He is apart from His Creation), YHVH who is sent (who we can see and hear) and His Spirit (hence the one LORD revealed as three)

 

[Brother Paul]

One poster asked "If there is a Trinity of three coequal persons, how does Jesus, the Son, have a God? If Jesus has a God then that God is higher than Jesus, not coequal."

Jesus is the man in whom YHVH became incarnate. As YHVH, the Son, He is Higher than all the angels and their King and is the Creator (Hebrews 1) as Jesus He is a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2)

 

[Butch5]

First of all, great conversation Butch! I agree in Genesis 19 we read two being called YHVH, but they are not two separate people just the one God unmanifesst and manifest (as well as the early pre-Christian Jews who saw two who were referred to as YHVH in this passage. The Targum Jonathan calls the one on earth that Abraham can see and hear "the Words of YHVH".. but they are not implying there are two separate people named YHVH (there is only one YHVH and there is none else).

Secondly I am not a Modalist who would say they appear in different modes at different times, I am what the Nicene fathers defined as a Trinitarian as the one God is eternally the three persona. I know it is difficult for most people to grasp and no human language is perfectly adequate to explain the concept as originally defined but later when Augustine was asked he gave this SIMILE to try and convey the understanding (he was NOT a Modalist). He described the tri-une nature of the one and ONLY one God (YHVH) as being like unto the Sun. We KNOW there is only one Sun (not three) but the essence of the Sun was not personally knowable (like the Father) until it is revealed by the Fire of itself (like the Word/Son) which we can see and know and finally the heat and light which we can feel and experience but cannot see personally is like unto the Spirit. Now I know this is still somewhat inadequate but it still was only one Sun (not in different Modes). So what I am suggesting was NOT rejected by the early church, but is exactly what the early Church taught. The separation into 3 separate people as we define people today came later in Middle ages Catholicism. Athanasius tells us we worship the one God in three persona and the three persona in unity, and that we must not confuse the order.

Now consider Isaiah 48:15-17 as we approach this section in context it is apparent that the one and only YHVH of Israel is speaking to and through the Prophet. Then we read:

"I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come near unto me and hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, has sent me. Thus saith the Lord (YHVH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God (YHVH-Elohim) which teaches you to profit, which leads you by the way that you should go.

Hi Brother Paul,

You're welcome, and thanks to you too for the conversation. I understand what you're saying, but I have to disagree. I don't mean any offense, it just seems to me to that people try to describe the indescribable. A logical contradiction is indescribable and that's what it seems to be to me. I agree that there are three mentioned in the Scriptures, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In that sense I agree that there is a trinity mentioned. However, I disagree that there are three persons. Paul tells us there is one God, the Father. That's what I believe. Jesus said that the Father was the only true God. Paul speaks of one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Paul notes two beings, That's what I believe. I believe Gen 19 is speaking of two beings one earth and one in Heaven. As I mentioned in the other post, I believe the Holy Spirit is a limited manifestation of the Father. How was the Father in Jesus? Through the Holy Spirit. Tertullian, an early Christian leader who is credited with coining the term "Trinity" as it is applied to the Christian faith also argued that there are two beings. I've heard a lot of people trying to explain the three in one God and I've not heard anyone that really gave a satisfactory answer. I believe the reason is because that's not what the Scriptures teach. The Bible doesn't speak of one God in three persons. It does speak of one God in one person, To us there is one God, the Father.

 

[Butch5]

One poster asked "If there is a Trinity of three coequal persons, how does Jesus, the Son, have a God? If Jesus has a God then that God is higher than Jesus, not coequal."

Jesus is the man in whom YHVH became incarnate. As YHVH, the Son, He is Higher than all the angels and their King and is the Creator (Hebrews 1) as Jesus He is a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2)

Hi Brother Paul,

Are you suggesting the dual nature theory?

 

[PloughBoy]

John 14:16 KJV. He may abide with you for ever.
John 14: 17 KJV. Because it sees him not, neither knows him not but we know Him for he dwellleth with you.....ff.
Just keep reading chapter 14 the Holy Scripture refers to the Holy Spirit as he, him, and it always speaks of the Holy Spirit in Capital letters.

 

[Curtis]

Son of God is Jesus’ IDENTITY, Man (flesh) is His NATURE.

You are only half right! Jesus had a "human nature", and a "divine nature", which is why God the Father called his Son, "thy throne O God is for ever, and for ever" (Heb 1:8) It would a lie to say Jesus was just a man, and it would also be a lie to say Jesus was just God! Jesus was 100% man, 100% God

 

[Curtis]

Son of God is Jesus’ IDENTITY, Man (flesh) is His NATURE.

Calling a person God without having the nature of God in them would be a lie! Calling a person a man without having a "human nature" would also be a lie!

 

[Curtis]

Jesus the Son of God, God the Holy Spirit coming down upon Jesus. God the Father confirming this is my beloved Son.... Father, Son. Holy Spirit = God!

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.