Are We Saved By Faith Alone?

[Gracealone]

Please excuse me, I'm still trying to clear up in my mind what may be just a lack of wording right?

paganmistic: Are you simply trying to say ,as in James 2: 14 that faith is always accompanied by works?

Or, James 2:17-26
....faith without works is dead?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils alsobelieve and tremble. but wilt thou know oh man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?



Faith first, will alway produce works?
Many say they believe, but true saving faith will produce works.


Is it possible that the name you have chosen clouds the issue?
Just wondering.......seems the issue has gotten clouded?

...

 

[paganmystic]

I find it curious how people can read something and not understand what they read. Never once have I ever mentioned Jewish Law. Never have I mentioned following any doctoral philosophy or practice. If you understood what you are trying to condemn me with. You would have seen that. There is only 1 Gospel and when you choose to follow Jesus in all faith and trust what he taught, when you accept His gift of the Spirit is written on your heart. To deny what Jesus taught is the most overt way to deny Jesus. We cannot have it both ways.

Since, you want to hold so dearly to Paul's witnessing lets look at Galatians 6:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, <23> Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. <24> And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.<25> If we live in the Spirit we must walk in the Spirit. <26> Let us not be desirous of vainglory, provoking one another, envying one another.

That's why I cannot be angry with attacks like this, only feel sorry for them, and add those the spread fear and paranoia through self-righteousness to my prayer list.

 

[paganmystic]

"paganmistic: Are you simply trying to say ,as in James 2: 14 that faith is always accompanied by works?

Or, James 2:17-26
....faith without works is dead?"

sorry I keep messing up the quote thing.

Gracealone does it matter they both re-enforce what all the Letters of witness do, ALL of them, Gal 1:6>10; 3:1>18; 5:1>26//Eph1:1>23; 4:1>16 & 17>32; 5:1>33//Phil2:1>30 & 4:1>9//Col 1:1>23; 2:6>23; 3:18>25; 4:2>18(this post was to help a dear friend)//1Thess 1:2>10; 2:1>20 (especially v8); 4:1>12 (especial v2);5:12>28//2Thess 2:13>17(especially v14),

I'll stop there because you know it continues. The original thread speaks for itself, I did post a reply as to where it came. I shouldn't have had to, because of the notation at Col4:2>18.

What I put into my last reply is a fundamental truth, ignorance cannot be meet with hostility and retribution, but with prayer for wisdom and understanding, all one needs to do is ask.

*Faith alone WILL NOT produce works, only make works good that's why Jesus gave us the parable Responsibilty in God's Kingdom, those that say they have faith but hide huddled in a corner awaiting the Lord's return is like the servant that recieved 1 talent. Matthew25:14>25). The Gospel as per the Gospel has to be shared and worked in order to recieve the joy, peace and love it brings.*
You have no idea how good this inquiry means to me, thank you

 

[Gracealone]

I believe that the Holy Spirit works in each of us, at the level of growth we are at, in our own personal relationship with him.
I also know how easy it is in these sites to get a wrong impression because of the lack of voice ,and facial expressions, or like me, the inability to use words correctly. (not saying you are)
I may be in total agreement with someone but because we use a slightly different twist on a phrase ....total misunderstanding!

There have been times in my experience, where I was accused of things, and idea's that were so foreign to me, I just knew they had me mixed up with someone else.

So therefore I give the benefit of a doubt to the very fullest, to gain understanding of one I know God loves even if we are not in total agreement.
All I have to do is remember Christ died for me, while I was yet a sinner, and know I have not reach perfection yet either, and that he is able to finish the work in me, so know he can for you also, and any other here in this site ,or in his church as a whole.
Don't be harden by reproof, but look at it ,and ask Is there a truth to glean from this?

Working at Alcoa for many years, we often had team evaluations.
If in your evaluation more than one person said the same thing as a concern, it was wise to look at it closely and see if there was truth in it, and how can I make it better.
It was a strange thing when I evaluated a new worker, and he saw in me the same thing I saw in him.
We later became friends. :embarasse
PS: Towards the end of your Post, you stated That Faith alone will not produce works,and I agree to a point , but I believe saving faith will. what do you feel will?
I believe faith in Christ, and his redeeming power will.
If we profess to have Christ, and are not truly born again, even works will not save us.
The word says that there will be many in that day who will say, Lord, Lord have we not done all these works in your name?"
And he will say, "Depart from me, for I Never knew you!"
WE must be born again.....

 

[jiggyfly]

I find it curious how people can read something and not understand what they read. Never once have I ever mentioned Jewish Law. Never have I mentioned following any doctoral philosophy or practice. If you understood what you are trying to condemn me with. You would have seen that. There is only 1 Gospel and when you choose to follow Jesus in all faith and trust what he taught, when you accept His gift of the Spirit is written on your heart. To deny what Jesus taught is the most overt way to deny Jesus. We cannot have it both ways.

Since, you want to hold so dearly to Paul's witnessing lets look at Galatians 6:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, <23> Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. <24> And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.<25> If we live in the Spirit we must walk in the Spirit. <26> Let us not be desirous of vainglory, provoking one another, envying one another.

That's why I cannot be angry with attacks like this, only feel sorry for them, and add those the spread fear and paranoia through self-righteousness to my prayer list.

So then you did not mean what you posted? Care to reiterate?

That's why I cannot be angry with attacks like this, only feel sorry for them, and add those the spread fear and paranoia through self-righteousness to my prayer list.

Care to disclose who you are directing this remark towards Paganmystic?

 

[paganmystic]

Thank you again Gracealone queries I can respond to accusations I won't.

First works are just that they are actions we do whether we are of the Spirit or not. The bad part and what makes it more difficult, sometimes its hard to discern what was meant. Why I appreciate a question about my work rather than an accusation. Most people choose the later, sad but that is why we are granted patience and understanding. Sorry for rambling.

Unfortunately we have our faith to reprove what we do or say, it doesn't sound like much but when we receive the Spirit, the Spirit writes the Laws of God or the Gospel on our heart, so usually if something feels wrong it likely is. At this point I will answer jiggyfly's question.

"So then you did not mean what you posted? Care to reiterate?"
He asked the question I assume to this statement,"Never once have I ever mentioned Jewish Law. Never have I mentioned following any doctoral philosophy or practice." A reiteration is unnecessary. Since in all all my statements I used God's Law and the Gospel in the original thread and all subsequent posts, Since Jesus is God, The Word, made flesh. I used a quote from John as well in Jesus' own words, John 15:10. All the disciples state in their Gospel. It is the understanding of the Gospel that leads to credibility to the people do in the name of the Lord.

It is sad what you mentioned as well about people claiming to be with Christ but are not of the Spirit, again caution is always necessary in dealing with such claims and those of the Spirit will have a sense of that because they know the Gospel as well.

So your first statement answers all the question, if you are reborn of the Spirit what you do honours Jesus and all of Heaven, because it is in harmony with the Gospels, That's why I made that statement to deny the Life of Jesus is to deny both the Spirit and the Gospel therefore the Sacrifice made by the crucifixion. Which would mean you reject the blood of Christ that was shed for us.

 

[Gracealone]

What do you mean, deny the life of Jesus?

No one here denies the life of Jesus.......I'm not understanding your comment.

Jesus is our life, and the gospel is the truth we preach.

The gospel:1Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The gospel, pure and simple, so even a child can understand,and be saved.

Romans 10:8,9,10,11

The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word
of faith, which we preach.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, and believe in thy heart that God hath raise him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For us who believe ,this is a sure foundation, and we hope in nothing less, nor
try to add anything to it.
Jesus cried on the cross, "It is finished", he paid the price, we can not add anything to it, but our faith, and love.
Pray on this truth, we can be found of one spirit. Encouraging one another in the faith.

 

[paganmystic]

In my thread, if you check it. I discusses Romans 5:1-10. In the beginning, I started with Romans 4:13-16 because I often get attacked on my stand point that when you accept the Spirit and the Spirit comes into your heart it not only washes it clean with the blood of Christ but, also writes the Gospel on your heart. This gives you the Laws of God.

The Laws mentioned in Romans 4:13-25 are the Jewish Laws which Jesus had an issue with all the way through his 31/2 year ministry, I don't think a page goes by in the Gospels were Jesus is either lecturing the Pharisees, or they trying to trip Him up. When you remove Jewish Law and apply only God's Law all people are equal. Which I stated.

Romans 5:1-5 gives us a string that takes us being justified by faith, through to the love of God being spread across our heart by the Spirit, for no other reason than our faith and his love for us. What I discovered about this section called Peace with God, within that chain we find that we have to take glory in our trials and tribulations because they are necessary in maintaining our faith, verses 3-5. With this point I went straight to verse 10 simply because it clear states that once we are reconciled with God we are save by Jesus life. Which is the Ministry of Christ and the Gospel, after that I continued on with 6-9 which explains why (through the Gospel) our lives are saved. The faith based works which are the good works you mentioned.

Everything I had discussed was unopinionated and unaltered. Again I have all the entries listed so that people can see that I am not altering entries to fit what I say.

based on this these were jiggyfly's responses to me and this thread, "Do you understand the cross of Christ and it's significance concerning redemption? Paul definitely preached against this same religious paradigm you propigate. Paul preached the same gospel to everyone, always. "....
"Anyone, I repeat anyone who believes that we able to stand before Father (Yahveh) righteously other than because of what Christ did on the cross is failing to understand the Truth"
"The cross of Christ, the cross of Christ, our redemption was made in the cross of Christ and only the cross of Christ."

faith and reconciliation that Christ died on the cross for us I made clear, we are washed clear by his blood I made clear, life through the Gospel I made clear. What I don't understand what religious paradigm, I subscribe to and since what I made clear was what I practise how on earth would Paul preach against me. The above 3 are in his first reply.

This one came from jiggyfly's second reply,

"The life of Christ that Paul is refering to is His supernatural life not His life in the flesh. Read the whole gospel, it is Christ formed in us, living in us. Jesus lived in the flesh and lived righteous according to the law so that He could be an acceptable sacrifice to God for us. That life ended in death just as the scriptures state, the law leads to death. The life that Paul is refering to in this text is Christ's supernatural life that is eternal."

This is the outright denial of the Gospel, complete unrepentant refusal to accept Jesus' life, what is highlighted in green was our Lord's teachings against the man-made traditions and practices attached to the Laws of God forcing people to live in bondage and subject to torment. The Gospel or the Laws of God were designed to free all to allow everyone to live in peace and compassion with others. Jesus was always eternal, he didn't need to eat or sleep. He was the Word part of God, he slept and ate with us as he was teaching us how to live by His Laws, the Laws of God the Laws which were written before creation and will be the same Laws after Heaven and Earth are gone. This was repeated all the way through the Gospels, it was taught by all the disciples and clearly mentioned in all the letters of the Apostles. Yet our undoing still remains, we listen but don't hear, we look but don't see. God loved us so much that he gave us a part of Himself to be offered up as the final sacrifice for us. Absolutely nothing will ever hide what was written in John 15:10-16.

 

[jiggyfly]

This one came from jiggyfly's second reply,

"The life of Christ that Paul is refering to is His supernatural life not His life in the flesh. Read the whole gospel, it is Christ formed in us, living in us. Jesus lived in the flesh and lived righteous according to the law so that He could be an acceptable sacrifice to God for us. That life ended in death just as the scriptures state, the law leads to death. The life that Paul is refering to in this text is Christ's supernatural life that is eternal."

This is the outright denial of the Gospel, complete unrepentant refusal to accept Jesus' life, what is highlighted in green was our Lord's teachings against the man-made traditions and practices attached to the Laws of God forcing people to live in bondage and subject to torment. The Gospel or the Laws of God were designed to free all to allow everyone to live in peace and compassion with others. Jesus was always eternal, he didn't need to eat or sleep. He was the Word part of God, he slept and ate with us as he was teaching us how to live by His Laws, the Laws of God the Laws which were written before creation and will be the same Laws after Heaven and Earth are gone. This was repeated all the way through the Gospels, it was taught by all the disciples and clearly mentioned in all the letters of the Apostles. Yet our undoing still remains, we listen but don't hear, we look but don't see. God loved us so much that he gave us a part of Himself to be offered up as the final sacrifice for us. Absolutely nothing will ever hide what was written in John 15:10-16.

Hebrews 2:14-18
14*Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death. 15*Only in this way could he deliver those who have lived all their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
16*We all know that Jesus came to help the descendants of Abraham, not to help the angels. 17*Therefore, it was necessary for Jesus to be in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. He then could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has gone through suffering and temptation, he is able to help us when we are being tempted.

 

[Coconut]

Romans 5:10, "For if, when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

Yes you read that correctly, we shall be saved by his life.

paganmystic, I would like to note the continuation of what Paul was saying in this verse you quoted above.


Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [Christs death]leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christs death leads to justification and life for all men. This should explain how we are saved by Christs life,[one life, one man, one act] in the sense, salvation is not by anything we can do, by only by what He has done.

I hope you can see that there is no faith without the Laws, besides. without them what would we have faith in? Now, Romans 5:6 "For when we were without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly...But God commanded His love toward us, in that, while we are yet sinners, Christ died for us."

This brings us back to the beginning of this, with verse 10 and that the life of Christ is what will save us. Jesus chose to live his life according to the Laws as a living example how we need to do this. So we cannot be saved by faith alone, everything that has to do with faith shows we are required to live by the Laws of God that is the only way to build the faith that will save us.

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

1Pe 1:18 Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers...with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers [Faith] in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Christ has always lived, how then are we saved by His life? Only through faith in what He has done. [one life, one man, one act]

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

 

[paganmystic]

AMEN Coconut

On page 2 (lol) I explained where this thread came from, the Lord is awesome the way he set everything up for us, its simply awesome.

I will be adding yet more as per jiggyfly's request, but I just stopped home to check e-mails. This thread cannot be shut down. Its just way to critical to a very serious problem for those wishing to be Christians

Again God bless you sister may you always keep in God's way

 

[Coconut]

Did I help the Lord set something up for you?, ~ cause I didnt mean to. lol

My intent was to address a couple of statements i`m questioning in your OP also, there seems to be a lot of confusion as to what you are trying to say there, please do clarify if you are able...we really do try not to be too dense in our understanding of what is written both here and in the Scripture

 

[paganmystic]

My entire life since age 14 has been according to the lifestyle defined by the Gospel. I tell people my faith is absolute, I may not use it well all the time but that what we have repentance for.

You'll have to read the original thread, which is what I posted the first 2 replies were jiggyfly's in which he clearly stated that we are lawless and all we have to to is pay homage to the cross for salvation. This is apparently Jesus own desire for us because the laws lead to death.

This is the misconception I was addressing, like I said the Gospel very clearly defines a lawful lifestyle, under God which can only be accessed by faith and the acceptance of the Spirit, that when we do this (accept the Spirit) when the Spirit washes our hearts clean with the blood Christ the Laws of God are written on our hearts. It is on these laws which Jesus will be judging us on when we pass or judgement day which ever comes first.

What I put in quotation marks 2 or 3 replies ago, where the comments jiggyfly used to criticize my thread.

jiggyfly: as it was written this was a general statement, I have used in the past and will likely use in the future. It was to define this current situation, especial since you have already classified me as dangerous in a previous thread, it appears, we have much to resolve. It is however curious why it bothered you, especially knowing if I have something to say, I say it. And yes the reply you requested is coming

"That's why I cannot be angry with attacks like this, only feel sorry for them, and add those the spread fear and paranoia through self-righteousness to my prayer list."

 

[jiggyfly]

jiggyfly: as it was written this was a general statement, I have used in the past and will likely use in the future. It was to define this current situation, especial since you have already classified me as dangerous in a previous thread, it appears, we have much to resolve. It is however curious why it bothered you, especially knowing if I have something to say, I say it. And yes the reply you requested is coming

OK PaganMystic I am going to close the thread and will reopen it when you are ready to post your response to my request (explain in detail what the laws you are referring to ). Just PM me.