Jesuslovesu
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Oh and Kara show me scripture that Mary was sinless not doctrine but scripture... thanks!
Ave Maria
- Thread starter avemaria
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Kara said:
You are wrong Kara. I gave you Truth, not opinions. I go by GOD's Word not "catholics". They have traditions, GOD has Truth.
Do you have proof she is sinless? Do not mention catholics. I am from a catholic background, full blown mary prayers and the whole garbage of it all. 13yrs of being deceived. No longer. GOD set me free with TRUTH.
Luke 1:26-38
in the sixth month the angel gabriel was sent by God to a town of galilee called nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named joseph, of the house of david, and the virgin’s name was mary. he went in and said to her, “rejoice, you who enjoy Gods favour! the Lord is with you!” she was deeply disturbed by these words and asked herself what this greeting could mean, but the angel said to her, ‘mary do not be afraid; you have won God’s favour. Look! You are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His ancestor david, He will rule over the house of jacob for ever and His reign will have no end’ mary said to the angel, ‘but how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man?’ the angel answered, ‘the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be Holy and will be called Son of God. and i tell you this too; your cousin elizabeth also, in her old age, has conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month, for nothing is impossible to God.’ mary said, ‘you see before you the Lord’s servant, let it happen to me as you have said.’ and the angel left her
after reading all the quotes back and forth with regards to the standing of mary i thought it best to look at the Word, the living Word of God as a prudent place to find the answer, and above for me is the answer.
in it i find several things worth note
“rejoice, you who enjoy Gods favour! the Lord is with you!”
for it was mary who enjoyed the favour and blessings of God and not vice versa
you are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name Him Jesus.
mary was and is human and the Lord took charge and through the angel told her what would happen, she was told of how things would be and had no input and no discussion in the events that would pass
‘the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. and so the child will be Holy and will be called Son of God.’
the works of our wonderous and majestic God would allow this to happen, not the works of man nor woman. if the Lord hadn’t decreed it, if the Lord hadn’t been active in this then nothing would have happened. thankfully He was and thankfully He took control of the situation and God conceived Jesus within the womb of mary
mary said, ‘you see before you the Lord’s servant, let it happen to me as you have said.’
mary herself acknowledged that she was nothing more than a servant of God. she was His servant, nothing more and nothing less. this is an excellent and wonderful thing, and I hope and pray that we all can be wonderful servants of His.mary was, is and always will be a servant of God, granted withour her Jesus would not have been born when and where He was, but she isn’t God, will never be God, and never herself claimed to be anything other than His servant
‘for nothing is impossible to God.’
for that dear Lord i thank You. for You are You and we are we, and we are Your servants, like mary was, and we follow her example and offer our life to You as servants. we offer today not our wombs like mary did, but our hands and our feet. so that like You created Jesus in mary’s womb and brought love into the world; our hands and our feet will bring this love forward into the dark recesses that are trying to overcome You and Your love. help us then Lord, as You helped mary, help us to have a heart and willing life of service to You and for Your people
i cannot express what i want to say dear Lord any better than to use mary’s words ‘my soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord and my spirit reloices in God my saviour; because He has looked upon the humiliation of His servant.’ Luke 1:46-48
so in summation i find that by merely reading the Word of God we discover that God is true, God is love and God can and does do whatever He pleases for He is God. thankfully God loves us and invites us into communion with Him, He wants us to be with Him and to share in His love. mary was a servant of God, a humble servant who did His biding with a contrite and simple heart. she did this because she was graced by God and had His Holy Spirit dwell within her
hope this helps you all like it helped me
I thank You Lord for setting me straight on the role of mary, and I thank You Lord for allowing me the grace to serve You and You alone
God bless
Scrappy
in the sixth month the angel gabriel was sent by God to a town of galilee called nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named joseph, of the house of david, and the virgin’s name was mary. he went in and said to her, “rejoice, you who enjoy Gods favour! the Lord is with you!” she was deeply disturbed by these words and asked herself what this greeting could mean, but the angel said to her, ‘mary do not be afraid; you have won God’s favour. Look! You are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His ancestor david, He will rule over the house of jacob for ever and His reign will have no end’ mary said to the angel, ‘but how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man?’ the angel answered, ‘the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be Holy and will be called Son of God. and i tell you this too; your cousin elizabeth also, in her old age, has conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month, for nothing is impossible to God.’ mary said, ‘you see before you the Lord’s servant, let it happen to me as you have said.’ and the angel left her
after reading all the quotes back and forth with regards to the standing of mary i thought it best to look at the Word, the living Word of God as a prudent place to find the answer, and above for me is the answer.
in it i find several things worth note
“rejoice, you who enjoy Gods favour! the Lord is with you!”
for it was mary who enjoyed the favour and blessings of God and not vice versa
you are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name Him Jesus.
mary was and is human and the Lord took charge and through the angel told her what would happen, she was told of how things would be and had no input and no discussion in the events that would pass
‘the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. and so the child will be Holy and will be called Son of God.’
the works of our wonderous and majestic God would allow this to happen, not the works of man nor woman. if the Lord hadn’t decreed it, if the Lord hadn’t been active in this then nothing would have happened. thankfully He was and thankfully He took control of the situation and God conceived Jesus within the womb of mary
mary said, ‘you see before you the Lord’s servant, let it happen to me as you have said.’
mary herself acknowledged that she was nothing more than a servant of God. she was His servant, nothing more and nothing less. this is an excellent and wonderful thing, and I hope and pray that we all can be wonderful servants of His.mary was, is and always will be a servant of God, granted withour her Jesus would not have been born when and where He was, but she isn’t God, will never be God, and never herself claimed to be anything other than His servant
‘for nothing is impossible to God.’
for that dear Lord i thank You. for You are You and we are we, and we are Your servants, like mary was, and we follow her example and offer our life to You as servants. we offer today not our wombs like mary did, but our hands and our feet. so that like You created Jesus in mary’s womb and brought love into the world; our hands and our feet will bring this love forward into the dark recesses that are trying to overcome You and Your love. help us then Lord, as You helped mary, help us to have a heart and willing life of service to You and for Your people
i cannot express what i want to say dear Lord any better than to use mary’s words ‘my soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord and my spirit reloices in God my saviour; because He has looked upon the humiliation of His servant.’ Luke 1:46-48
so in summation i find that by merely reading the Word of God we discover that God is true, God is love and God can and does do whatever He pleases for He is God. thankfully God loves us and invites us into communion with Him, He wants us to be with Him and to share in His love. mary was a servant of God, a humble servant who did His biding with a contrite and simple heart. she did this because she was graced by God and had His Holy Spirit dwell within her
hope this helps you all like it helped me
I thank You Lord for setting me straight on the role of mary, and I thank You Lord for allowing me the grace to serve You and You alone
God bless
Scrappy
Amen brother Chad
All I can say is PRAISE GOD! Thanks Chad for standing up to the truth of God's Word.
Ichthmus, I can understand why you could get lost on this thread. I answered Ave Marie in the first place.
Never were my answers from God's word dealt with by Ave Marie or Kara. All we hear is 'experience' or 'the Catholic church believes'. This is clearly coming from the same spirit of disobedience that wants to put the preaching of God's word down and elevate the traditions of men, the idolatry the serpent taught Eve "you will be like gods..." and putting poor Mary in a place the Bible never did.
The Bible NOWHERE calls Mary the Mother of God. This is a false title and a heretical one. God is Eternal and had no mother. He chose to come to earth through His Son and take on human form.
He chose a sinful, yet humble hearted girl (likely a teenager by the way) to bear His Son precisely because she was of the right Israeli blood line the Messiah was to come from, but on the other hand, she was a nobody that God saw fit to use.
Just like all of us are before we were saved. Not many wise, not many noble, etc.
Mary born perfect? Why in her prayer of thanksgiving after she finds out she will bear Jesus does she say "Thank you God my SAVIOR'? Perfect people don't need Saviors. Jesus never prayed to God "Thank you God my Savior". Never. HE was the Savior.
About the wedding feast. Completely overlooked by the Romanists commenting here is the fact JESUS REBUKED MARY FOR BRINGING THE PEOPLE TO HIM FOR WINE. He said (original NIV cause it was handy...not an endorsement)
"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My time has not yet come." John 2:4.
She wasn't perfect. Jesus turned water into wine because He decided He would, NOT because of His mother who was out of line in asking it of Him.
Further, she wasn't perfect because she (and Joseph) accused a young Jesus of worrying them on purpose when He stayed behind about His Father's business (in the temple, straightening out the wrong doctrine of the teachers/rabbis).
She wasn't a perpetual virgin because she had other children with Joseph after Jesus. Two of Jesus 'half brothers' wrote books of the New Testament. James and Judas (Jude). Two more half brothers were Joseph (2nd
) and Simon. He also had half sisters.
Mark 6:3-4 "Isn't this carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him. Jesus said to them " Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
She was blessed as are all those Jesus talk about in the Sermon on the Mount.
She was blessed like John the Baptist, whom God chose to be the forerunner to Christ.
She was blessed like John the Baptist's parents who had no children until their old age.
She was blessed like Anna, the prophetess who was 84 and got to see her Messiah. She was blessed like the righteous man Simeon who blessed Mary AND Joseph in Luke 2:34-35.
Being blessed doesn't make you equal to God. If it did, there would be many gods and there is but One.
For those of you still lost in traditions of men, like those of Jesus day, tied to the doctrines of the Pharisees when Jesus came to free men, I don't judge you, I pray for you.
But there will come a day of accountability. God isn't mocked. He has given you His Word. Why won't you read it? Why do you put your experiences above His explicit Word?
Don't you know that all cults and false religions do the same thing? If you want to be different from those who don't follow Jesus, remember Jesus' own words.
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him or knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.....whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:15-17,21
If you want to show you love Jesus, find out from His Word who He is, out of love do what He says. Don't be swayed by your own deceitful heart (who can know it), your own experiences (which can fool us too) or the dogma of men that don't allow you to read and know the truth yourself. The Holy Spirit is to be the teacher of true believers. If anyone teaches doctrines contrary to the Scripture, the Bible says, let him be accursed.
I hope and pray that no one wants to be among that number!
I know I don't and pray God's mercy and blood on my sinful, redeemed soul. I know Chad and the others who are defending God's Word here are also trying to show our love for Jesus and His Word!
Amen?
Lab
All I can say is PRAISE GOD! Thanks Chad for standing up to the truth of God's Word.
Ichthmus, I can understand why you could get lost on this thread. I answered Ave Marie in the first place.
Never were my answers from God's word dealt with by Ave Marie or Kara. All we hear is 'experience' or 'the Catholic church believes'. This is clearly coming from the same spirit of disobedience that wants to put the preaching of God's word down and elevate the traditions of men, the idolatry the serpent taught Eve "you will be like gods..." and putting poor Mary in a place the Bible never did.
The Bible NOWHERE calls Mary the Mother of God. This is a false title and a heretical one. God is Eternal and had no mother. He chose to come to earth through His Son and take on human form.
He chose a sinful, yet humble hearted girl (likely a teenager by the way) to bear His Son precisely because she was of the right Israeli blood line the Messiah was to come from, but on the other hand, she was a nobody that God saw fit to use.
Just like all of us are before we were saved. Not many wise, not many noble, etc.
Mary born perfect? Why in her prayer of thanksgiving after she finds out she will bear Jesus does she say "Thank you God my SAVIOR'? Perfect people don't need Saviors. Jesus never prayed to God "Thank you God my Savior". Never. HE was the Savior.
About the wedding feast. Completely overlooked by the Romanists commenting here is the fact JESUS REBUKED MARY FOR BRINGING THE PEOPLE TO HIM FOR WINE. He said (original NIV cause it was handy...not an endorsement)
"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My time has not yet come." John 2:4.
She wasn't perfect. Jesus turned water into wine because He decided He would, NOT because of His mother who was out of line in asking it of Him.
Further, she wasn't perfect because she (and Joseph) accused a young Jesus of worrying them on purpose when He stayed behind about His Father's business (in the temple, straightening out the wrong doctrine of the teachers/rabbis).
She wasn't a perpetual virgin because she had other children with Joseph after Jesus. Two of Jesus 'half brothers' wrote books of the New Testament. James and Judas (Jude). Two more half brothers were Joseph (2nd
) and Simon. He also had half sisters. Mark 6:3-4 "Isn't this carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him. Jesus said to them " Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
She was blessed as are all those Jesus talk about in the Sermon on the Mount.
She was blessed like John the Baptist, whom God chose to be the forerunner to Christ.
She was blessed like John the Baptist's parents who had no children until their old age.
She was blessed like Anna, the prophetess who was 84 and got to see her Messiah. She was blessed like the righteous man Simeon who blessed Mary AND Joseph in Luke 2:34-35.
Being blessed doesn't make you equal to God. If it did, there would be many gods and there is but One.
For those of you still lost in traditions of men, like those of Jesus day, tied to the doctrines of the Pharisees when Jesus came to free men, I don't judge you, I pray for you.
But there will come a day of accountability. God isn't mocked. He has given you His Word. Why won't you read it? Why do you put your experiences above His explicit Word?
Don't you know that all cults and false religions do the same thing? If you want to be different from those who don't follow Jesus, remember Jesus' own words.
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him or knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.....whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:15-17,21
If you want to show you love Jesus, find out from His Word who He is, out of love do what He says. Don't be swayed by your own deceitful heart (who can know it), your own experiences (which can fool us too) or the dogma of men that don't allow you to read and know the truth yourself. The Holy Spirit is to be the teacher of true believers. If anyone teaches doctrines contrary to the Scripture, the Bible says, let him be accursed.
I hope and pray that no one wants to be among that number!
I know I don't and pray God's mercy and blood on my sinful, redeemed soul. I know Chad and the others who are defending God's Word here are also trying to show our love for Jesus and His Word!
Amen?
Lab
Let's go back to the beginning of the thread.
I have here "messages" from the apparitions of Mary at Fatima, Medujugorje, and various other places all over the world. These "messages" have full church approval. My point in this is to show you why these messages DO NOT line up with the Word of God, and to show you that the Mary in these apparitions today, is NOT the Mary of the bible.
Message from the apparition of Mary: Today I invite you to ask yourself why I am with you this long. I am the Mediatrix between you and God.
Now let's read 1 Timothy 2:25: FOR THERE IS ONE GOD AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS.
The Word of God clearly states that our ONLY mediator is Jesus Christ.
Message to Father Gobbi (also church approved): I have great confidence in the powerful work of mediation and intercession by me, your heavenly mother.
Now read Hebrews 7:25: THEREFORE HE IS ALSO ABLE TO SAVE TO THE UTTERMOST THOSE WHO COME TO GOD THROUGH HIM, SINCE HE ALWAYS LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM.Scripture again states that it is Jesus alone that lives to make intercession for us, not anyone else, not Mary.
Message from apparition of Mary at Lady of San Nicolas: I am the ark of peace. I am the ark of salvation. I am the ark where my children must enter, if they wish to live in the kingdom of God.
This is very anti-scriptural because 'Mary' is saying that she is the way to salvation. That we must go through her if we wish to live in the kingdom of God. But scripture DOES state that Jesus is our Savior.
Matthew 1:21: AND SHE WILL BRING FORTH A SON, AND YOU SHALL CALL HIS NAME JESUS, FOR HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.
Hosea 13:4: YET I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD EVER SINCE THE LAND OF EGYPT, AND YOU SHALL KNOW NO GOD BUT ME; FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME.
John 14:6: I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.
Message for apparition of Mary at Lady of All Nations: I stand here as the co-redemptrix and advocate. Everything should be concentrated on that.
Now who is our redeemer and advocate? Mary certainly isn't because scripture, once again, tells us:
Revelations 5:9: YOU ARE WORTHY TO TAKE THE SCROLL, AND TO OPEN ITS SEALS; FOR YOU WERE SLAIN AND HAVE REDEEMED US TO GOD BY YOUR BLOOD OUT OF EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION.
Isaiah 47:4: AS FOR OUR REDEEMER, THE LORD OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.
1 John 2:1b: AND IF ANYONE SINS, WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS.
God created Mary to be the mother of His Son, who is also God. Through her divine maternity she was chosen by God to 'mediate' Christ to the world. To say this was not necessary is not tenable.
Secondly your reference to 1Tim 2:5
The greek word for 'one' used in this verse is 'heis' and not 'monos'. Monos signifies 'only' in the sense of exclusive uniqueness while heis is 'one' in the sense of "sameness" of function. It is clear that Paul is aware of this distinction because he uses monos in every other instance of 'one' in the Epistle to signify uniqueness but uses heis only in this passage.
Paul is showing us that the redeeming mediation of Christ is "for all". His epistles are full of examples of priestly mediators (Christ,Aaron), covenental mediators (Moses, Jesus) and factual mediators (Abraham,Paul).
The Gospels show that Mary is a factual mediator. Christ is the one mediator in the sense of being the primary mediator and all other mediators participate in His mediation
Your quote from Hebrews 7 is about the priesthood of Christ, that He lives forever making intercession for us. Catholic priest are 'representatives' of His, who act in His name. High Priest have the duty of offering sacrifice and Jesus the everlasting Priest is living and offering the 'perpetual' sacrifice of His Body and Blood for us at every Mass. That's a Catholic belief, not believed by all.
With regards to Mary's sinlesness:
God gives in Gen 3:15:
"I will put enmities between thee (serpent) and the woman and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."
In other words Satan would never be able to compromise the woman (Mary) or her son (Jesus) thus neither one would ever sin. Notice that the woman is spoken of first and then her son and the promise applies to both.Notice also the wording her 'seed' or spermotos in the Greek which is the term for the male *****! This verse was referenced in the explanation of the Dogma of the immaculate conception.
Now lets fast forward to Luke 1:42 when God (Holy Spirit) gives a blessing to Mary and Jesus:
"Blessed art thou among woman, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb".
Notice the woman is spoken of first and then her son. Notice that her son is the 'fruit of her womb' with no indication of a man being involved. Notice that the blessing is done in a parallel fashion as is the promise in Gen 3:15.
I personally see the promise being fulfilled by the blessing (much like what happened to Abraham). I also see at the cross the fulfillment of the blessing in the New covenant, again like God's promise,blessing and covenant bestowed on Abraham.
Notice that in every instance we have the woman (Mary) and her Son.
Now there are two possibilities I see in the parallel blessing and the only tenable one is that Mary and Jesus are blessed in the same way in there human nature. We know that Jesus is man in all things but sin, therefore Mary is also woman in all things but sin.
Labrador, what exactly did you want 'dealt' with?
The Bible NOWHERE calls Mary the Mother of God. This is a false title and a heretical one.
What would you call the woman from whom someone is born?
On this thread there seems to be a lot of 'Mary is not God'. Of course she isn't. Who ever said she was???!
Chad, when i joined this forum, i saw that one of your rules was respect for the views of others. I know I don't and pray God's mercy and blood on my sinful, redeemed soul. I know Chad and the others who are defending God's Word here are also trying to show our love for Jesus and His Word!
Why is it constantly implied that Catholics don't love and respect the word of God as well? Why are Catholic views 'garbage'? Is this an anti-Catholic sort of site?
I have here "messages" from the apparitions of Mary at Fatima, Medujugorje, and various other places all over the world. These "messages" have full church approval. My point in this is to show you why these messages DO NOT line up with the Word of God, and to show you that the Mary in these apparitions today, is NOT the Mary of the bible.
Message from the apparition of Mary: Today I invite you to ask yourself why I am with you this long. I am the Mediatrix between you and God.
Now let's read 1 Timothy 2:25: FOR THERE IS ONE GOD AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS.
The Word of God clearly states that our ONLY mediator is Jesus Christ.
Message to Father Gobbi (also church approved): I have great confidence in the powerful work of mediation and intercession by me, your heavenly mother.
Now read Hebrews 7:25: THEREFORE HE IS ALSO ABLE TO SAVE TO THE UTTERMOST THOSE WHO COME TO GOD THROUGH HIM, SINCE HE ALWAYS LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM.Scripture again states that it is Jesus alone that lives to make intercession for us, not anyone else, not Mary.
Message from apparition of Mary at Lady of San Nicolas: I am the ark of peace. I am the ark of salvation. I am the ark where my children must enter, if they wish to live in the kingdom of God.
This is very anti-scriptural because 'Mary' is saying that she is the way to salvation. That we must go through her if we wish to live in the kingdom of God. But scripture DOES state that Jesus is our Savior.
Matthew 1:21: AND SHE WILL BRING FORTH A SON, AND YOU SHALL CALL HIS NAME JESUS, FOR HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.
Hosea 13:4: YET I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD EVER SINCE THE LAND OF EGYPT, AND YOU SHALL KNOW NO GOD BUT ME; FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME.
John 14:6: I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.
Message for apparition of Mary at Lady of All Nations: I stand here as the co-redemptrix and advocate. Everything should be concentrated on that.
Now who is our redeemer and advocate? Mary certainly isn't because scripture, once again, tells us:
Revelations 5:9: YOU ARE WORTHY TO TAKE THE SCROLL, AND TO OPEN ITS SEALS; FOR YOU WERE SLAIN AND HAVE REDEEMED US TO GOD BY YOUR BLOOD OUT OF EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION.
Isaiah 47:4: AS FOR OUR REDEEMER, THE LORD OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.
1 John 2:1b: AND IF ANYONE SINS, WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS.
God created Mary to be the mother of His Son, who is also God. Through her divine maternity she was chosen by God to 'mediate' Christ to the world. To say this was not necessary is not tenable.
Secondly your reference to 1Tim 2:5
The greek word for 'one' used in this verse is 'heis' and not 'monos'. Monos signifies 'only' in the sense of exclusive uniqueness while heis is 'one' in the sense of "sameness" of function. It is clear that Paul is aware of this distinction because he uses monos in every other instance of 'one' in the Epistle to signify uniqueness but uses heis only in this passage.
Paul is showing us that the redeeming mediation of Christ is "for all". His epistles are full of examples of priestly mediators (Christ,Aaron), covenental mediators (Moses, Jesus) and factual mediators (Abraham,Paul).
The Gospels show that Mary is a factual mediator. Christ is the one mediator in the sense of being the primary mediator and all other mediators participate in His mediation
Your quote from Hebrews 7 is about the priesthood of Christ, that He lives forever making intercession for us. Catholic priest are 'representatives' of His, who act in His name. High Priest have the duty of offering sacrifice and Jesus the everlasting Priest is living and offering the 'perpetual' sacrifice of His Body and Blood for us at every Mass. That's a Catholic belief, not believed by all.
With regards to Mary's sinlesness:
God gives in Gen 3:15:
"I will put enmities between thee (serpent) and the woman and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."
In other words Satan would never be able to compromise the woman (Mary) or her son (Jesus) thus neither one would ever sin. Notice that the woman is spoken of first and then her son and the promise applies to both.Notice also the wording her 'seed' or spermotos in the Greek which is the term for the male *****! This verse was referenced in the explanation of the Dogma of the immaculate conception.
Now lets fast forward to Luke 1:42 when God (Holy Spirit) gives a blessing to Mary and Jesus:
"Blessed art thou among woman, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb".
Notice the woman is spoken of first and then her son. Notice that her son is the 'fruit of her womb' with no indication of a man being involved. Notice that the blessing is done in a parallel fashion as is the promise in Gen 3:15.
I personally see the promise being fulfilled by the blessing (much like what happened to Abraham). I also see at the cross the fulfillment of the blessing in the New covenant, again like God's promise,blessing and covenant bestowed on Abraham.
Notice that in every instance we have the woman (Mary) and her Son.
Now there are two possibilities I see in the parallel blessing and the only tenable one is that Mary and Jesus are blessed in the same way in there human nature. We know that Jesus is man in all things but sin, therefore Mary is also woman in all things but sin.
Labrador, what exactly did you want 'dealt' with?
The Bible NOWHERE calls Mary the Mother of God. This is a false title and a heretical one.
What would you call the woman from whom someone is born?
On this thread there seems to be a lot of 'Mary is not God'. Of course she isn't. Who ever said she was???!
Chad, when i joined this forum, i saw that one of your rules was respect for the views of others. I know I don't and pray God's mercy and blood on my sinful, redeemed soul. I know Chad and the others who are defending God's Word here are also trying to show our love for Jesus and His Word!
Why is it constantly implied that Catholics don't love and respect the word of God as well? Why are Catholic views 'garbage'? Is this an anti-Catholic sort of site?
Message to Father Gobbi (also church approved):
Who approved this guy ? We are all approved only through Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross . No doctrinal debates Kara . I don,t care where you go to church or what your denomination is . Exalt Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father and leave the doctrines to yourself . If you want to keep your views on Mary , then go ahead . But please talkjesus and his resurrection to save us and nothing else . However you communicate with God is your business . Mike
Who approved this guy ? We are all approved only through Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross . No doctrinal debates Kara . I don,t care where you go to church or what your denomination is . Exalt Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father and leave the doctrines to yourself . If you want to keep your views on Mary , then go ahead . But please talkjesus and his resurrection to save us and nothing else . However you communicate with God is your business . Mike
To Kara: What I want addressed?
Since others have expressed so well some good responses to you Kara, I will refrain from adding much to them.
I made a mistake in adding your name to AveMarie's for it was the post I originally replied to and it wasn't dealt with by that user.
However, what would I call Mary other than mother of God? The earthly bearer of GOD'S Son. Genesis 3:15 talks about 'the seed of the woman".....as everyone knows women don't produce seed. GOD put the seed of His Son inside Mary so that in addition to being 100 percent God, he would be 100 percent man. But mother of GOD? oh no, that I nor the Bible would call Mary, nor would she call herself.
Read the account of her response to the announcement of the angel and nowhere did she say anything like that. "Thank you for making me your mother, oh God?" I think not.
It is not anti-Catholic to point out error any more than it would be anti-Protestant to point any error in a teaching that some Protestants may hold if they are against Scripture.
Anyone who is saved by grace alone, through faith alone on the Word alone because of Christ alone is a brother or sister in Christ, whatever the denominational label.
Sadly many protestant denominations have followed the midieval Roman church into many errors that likewise need the clear light of the Word of God and a revival in the church at large would be welcome, I think, by all that call Jesus Lord, by the grace of His Father, God.
Lab
Since others have expressed so well some good responses to you Kara, I will refrain from adding much to them.
I made a mistake in adding your name to AveMarie's for it was the post I originally replied to and it wasn't dealt with by that user.
However, what would I call Mary other than mother of God? The earthly bearer of GOD'S Son. Genesis 3:15 talks about 'the seed of the woman".....as everyone knows women don't produce seed. GOD put the seed of His Son inside Mary so that in addition to being 100 percent God, he would be 100 percent man. But mother of GOD? oh no, that I nor the Bible would call Mary, nor would she call herself.
Read the account of her response to the announcement of the angel and nowhere did she say anything like that. "Thank you for making me your mother, oh God?" I think not.
It is not anti-Catholic to point out error any more than it would be anti-Protestant to point any error in a teaching that some Protestants may hold if they are against Scripture.
Anyone who is saved by grace alone, through faith alone on the Word alone because of Christ alone is a brother or sister in Christ, whatever the denominational label.
Sadly many protestant denominations have followed the midieval Roman church into many errors that likewise need the clear light of the Word of God and a revival in the church at large would be welcome, I think, by all that call Jesus Lord, by the grace of His Father, God.
Lab
Glad we agree on that. Catholics don't believe that Mary is the way to the Father. They believe that she intercedes for humanity before her son, Jesus. Imagine a child wanting something from its father. That child will often run to its mother, who will then carry the child to the father. Same with Mary.
Well, Iv'e checked in more than one Bible (non-denominational) and come up with the same translation (By the way, you need to read it in context to see who's doing the striking where)
"Accursed be you
of all animals wild and tame!
On your belly you will go
and on dust you will feed
as long as you live.
I shall put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
it will bruise your head
and you will strike its heel."
You see your mother merely as the earthly bearer of your father's son. If that works for you, great.
Mary counsels her son but also counsels the others to obey Him and not her. Jesus speaks to her as her superior but yet He defers to her suggestion.
She wasn't a perpetual virgin because she had other children with Joseph after Jesus. Two of Jesus 'half brothers' wrote books of the New Testament. James and Judas (Jude). Two more half brothers were Joseph (2nd
Mark 6:3-4 "Isn't this carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him. Jesus said to them " Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
In Jesus's time there was no word for cousin so they used the word brother or sister to denote the close family relationship. Furthermore, when Jesus died on the Cross He asked John to look after His mother. If he had blood brothers surely they would have looked after her.
With regards to doctrine: Bear with me for one moment. What did Jesus mean when he said to Peter (Simon) Mat 16:16: "Simon, son of Jonah, you are a blessed man!" Mat 16:18 "So now I say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church." Mat16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven: whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven."
Peter was the first leader of Christ's Church. He had, as given to him by Christ, "the keys of the kingdom of Heaven". We agree so far?
From Peter and the disciples came the beginnings of the Catholic doctrine. Descendant from Peter came other Popes. These Popes are more stones added to the building of the Church, whose corner stone was Peter (ordained by Jesus). The Catholic Church, historically, was the Church instituted by Jesus. The doctrines that spring from the Church are therefore in accordance with the will of Jesus.
Next issue that will undoubtedly spring up-the Catholic Church isn't perfect. There is more than one side to the Church. One of those sides is the human element. Humans make mistakes, and they try to get up and to do better in the future. The other side of it is the spiritual side. This is from God and is therefore INFALLIBLE. The spirituality can't be questioned, unless someone would care to question God's authority? Or perhaps Jesus made a mistake in instituting Peter?
Hmmmmm. Lab, care to speculate on any of the above or to try and refute history? I'd be interested to hear.
kara....please read Luke 11v27,28..if ever there was a chance or oppurtunity to honour Mary he would have done so?
Also of interest is John 2v3,4?
Also(again)the only time Paul mentions her in his writings is in Galations 4v4 and refers to her as "a woman".........which is all she was.
Also of interest is John 2v3,4?
Also(again)the only time Paul mentions her in his writings is in Galations 4v4 and refers to her as "a woman".........which is all she was.
catholic = universal, Roman Catholic = sect, not universal
Kara,
No, I don't care to discuss what you refer to as history with you.
Yes, you missed my point entirely. I don't call my mother my FATHER'S mother. Do you? God is the FATHER so how can Mary be His mother? She can't. End of that false logic. Besides I didn't drag your family into the discussion, so leave mine out of it kindly.
No, we are not agreed that Jesus built his kingdom upon Peter. I explained before that faulty logic was based on not understanding the Greek in the text which uses a different term in Greek for Peter (meaning pebble or little rock) and bedrock (foundation) which was the second word Jesus used to say He would build His church upon.
The bedrock, foundational truth Jesus built the church upon was what Peter had SAID which Jesus said he COULDN'T have said unless the Father revealed it to him. That was that JESUS WAS THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. Jesus is the cornerstone, foundation, groom and so much more of the church. NOT PETER.
You want to talk history?
Explain to me why more than half of the New Testament is written by Paul, by far the apostle to the Gentiles if the church was built on Peter?
Peter wrote (with Mark's transcription or help) the gospel of Mark, I & 2 Peter. That's all.
Paul, who wrote many more books, said that people who said they were of Paul, Peter (or Cephas as his name was in Greek), Apollos, etc. were WRONG WRONG WRONG. Jesus is who the church is built on. No one else. Not Peter, not Paul, not Mary, (nor any other apostle, disciple, man, woman or angel). Clear?
You are confusing terms when you talk about 'the catholic church historically'.
The church in Rome for example was established a good deal after the church in Jerusalem.
The beginning of use of popes, etc. was even much later because it is not in the Bible and is not building on the foundation of the apostles.
In fact, catholic means universal. So the universal church did start with Christ, then the apostles.
The ROMAN Catholic church came later and ascribes to the Pope the same authority as an apostle and says he speaks for JESUS HIMSELF.
We have no more priests to intercede for us. Jesus, the Great High Priest, tore the temple veil in two when He died because there was no more partition between God and man. Man can come directly to God to confess his sins through Jesus Christ.
And, by the way, historically speaking, Jesus asked John, the apostle, to look after Mary after He died.
SHE was the one that needed looking after.
We don't need to ask Mary (who is in the presence of Jesus only as one of the many redeemed, where there is neither marriage or giving in marriage Jesus said, no earthly mother/father/son/daughter relationships in heaven.....all believers are brothers and sisters adopted by God.) to talk to Jesus on our behalf.
Mary is only our sister in Christ. If you have to ask your sister to speak to your brother or father for you, then I would suggest you must not have a very good relationship with your brother or father.
If we were to ask her to speak to her son, why when Jesus gave us the example how to pray did He say OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN and to pray IN JESUS NAME? Why did He not mention Mary?
Mary is one of those that is part of Christ's bride, the Church, each person redeemed by Jesus blood is also. I don't pray to Mary because JESUS is the one Mediator between God and man. We can go directly to God in Jesus name. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved or to whom we should pray.
By grace alone, through faith alone, on the Word alone, because of Christ alone! He is our only hope. He is the Cornerstone!
So there's that and if you look back in the thread I dealt with that false use of saying Jesus was building the church on Peter before. Simply not true. It was built on Jesus Christ alone and the apostles all preached that, including Peter.
Lab
Kara,
No, I don't care to discuss what you refer to as history with you.
Yes, you missed my point entirely. I don't call my mother my FATHER'S mother. Do you? God is the FATHER so how can Mary be His mother? She can't. End of that false logic. Besides I didn't drag your family into the discussion, so leave mine out of it kindly.
No, we are not agreed that Jesus built his kingdom upon Peter. I explained before that faulty logic was based on not understanding the Greek in the text which uses a different term in Greek for Peter (meaning pebble or little rock) and bedrock (foundation) which was the second word Jesus used to say He would build His church upon.
The bedrock, foundational truth Jesus built the church upon was what Peter had SAID which Jesus said he COULDN'T have said unless the Father revealed it to him. That was that JESUS WAS THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. Jesus is the cornerstone, foundation, groom and so much more of the church. NOT PETER.
You want to talk history?
Explain to me why more than half of the New Testament is written by Paul, by far the apostle to the Gentiles if the church was built on Peter?
Peter wrote (with Mark's transcription or help) the gospel of Mark, I & 2 Peter. That's all.
Paul, who wrote many more books, said that people who said they were of Paul, Peter (or Cephas as his name was in Greek), Apollos, etc. were WRONG WRONG WRONG. Jesus is who the church is built on. No one else. Not Peter, not Paul, not Mary, (nor any other apostle, disciple, man, woman or angel). Clear?
You are confusing terms when you talk about 'the catholic church historically'.
The church in Rome for example was established a good deal after the church in Jerusalem.
The beginning of use of popes, etc. was even much later because it is not in the Bible and is not building on the foundation of the apostles.
In fact, catholic means universal. So the universal church did start with Christ, then the apostles.
The ROMAN Catholic church came later and ascribes to the Pope the same authority as an apostle and says he speaks for JESUS HIMSELF.
We have no more priests to intercede for us. Jesus, the Great High Priest, tore the temple veil in two when He died because there was no more partition between God and man. Man can come directly to God to confess his sins through Jesus Christ.
And, by the way, historically speaking, Jesus asked John, the apostle, to look after Mary after He died.
SHE was the one that needed looking after.
We don't need to ask Mary (who is in the presence of Jesus only as one of the many redeemed, where there is neither marriage or giving in marriage Jesus said, no earthly mother/father/son/daughter relationships in heaven.....all believers are brothers and sisters adopted by God.) to talk to Jesus on our behalf.
Mary is only our sister in Christ. If you have to ask your sister to speak to your brother or father for you, then I would suggest you must not have a very good relationship with your brother or father.
If we were to ask her to speak to her son, why when Jesus gave us the example how to pray did He say OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN and to pray IN JESUS NAME? Why did He not mention Mary?
Mary is one of those that is part of Christ's bride, the Church, each person redeemed by Jesus blood is also. I don't pray to Mary because JESUS is the one Mediator between God and man. We can go directly to God in Jesus name. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved or to whom we should pray.
By grace alone, through faith alone, on the Word alone, because of Christ alone! He is our only hope. He is the Cornerstone!
So there's that and if you look back in the thread I dealt with that false use of saying Jesus was building the church on Peter before. Simply not true. It was built on Jesus Christ alone and the apostles all preached that, including Peter.
Lab
Please. Jesus is also God. Don't go round in circles.
I thought we were leaving families 'out of it'?
I suppose Jesus's use of the word "you" is also lost in translation?
In return, will you explain to me why the American constitution wasn't written entirely by James Madison, George Washington, Roger Sherman, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, James Wilson, Governor Morris, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, the 'founding Fathers' of America?
The word is "for", by the way, which makes a huge difference.
I never once made use of the words "Roman Catholic".
And tell me, which religion grew out of that? I can promise you that 2 thousand years ago the Anglican Church etc. did not exist.
Read my previous post.
Having said all that, it's been great talking to all of you. :shade: Circular dicussions were never my strong point so: A toute a l'heure! Ciao! Cheers!
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Kara, take it elsewhere. Stop trying to deceive my brothers and sisters. Your account is closed and you refuse to be anything but blind. This thread is closed.
Scripture has been spoken and the Truth has been shown. Mary is not GOD. Period.
Goodbye.
Scripture has been spoken and the Truth has been shown. Mary is not GOD. Period.
Goodbye.
mymakersdaughter
Member
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Kara said:
Wow, I sure hope you are not studying Law as I would imagine that you would have a difficult time in front of a Judge explaining your position on a case with the statement "Well Your Honour, I read it in a text book somewhere." LOL Maybe that is how they interpret Law in South Africa.
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