jesus'daughter
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hey good people, thanx for all the info, i found it very enlightening... thanx and GOD bless
Beware Of The False Teacher
- Thread starter Stephen1
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Fellowservant
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Hi brother let me explain, i don't teach pre or post. I'm kinda neutral on all this, as Ive said before there are many views here. But that don't make your view correct, and the rest heresy or false.
When it comes to prophecy and prophetic writings even some bible theologians disagree here, and they don't call one another false teachers because of it. They just agree to disagree, it helps to keep their pride at bay.
Its also a matter of opinion here as well, lol i knew a couple of men who had differing views and they taught in the same congregation, one was Post-trib with the last name brother Post. The other was Pre-trib with his last name as brother Priest. They would just joke about it and carry on.:shade:
We will all know how it ends when it comes to pass, most prophecy can't be understood fully, until it comes to pass. So that's where i stand on this at the moment. I have my doubts on multiple raptures or gatherings before the actual return of Christ, but i could be wrong. We will see in time
God bless
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Fellowservant
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If Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are read in their entirety and in their context we see that Jesus is speaking about an end time tribulation for all saints and even he says that he is warning us about this.
So Christ here is basically teaching a post-trib rapture or return before he gathers the elect. But he also claims he will shorten the tribulation for the sake of the elect.
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
Mark 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter [therein], to take any thing out of his house:
Mark 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mark 13:19 For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
We see here Christ warning us about the coming of false Christ and prophets and earthly sorrows. Also he is addressing or warning all the saints of God here, not just one group of a coming tribulation just before his return. If its there its hard to deny, i see no mention of one group being raptured before these things, and one afterward. So we will have to agree to disagree here, for the time being.
God bless brother
So Christ here is basically teaching a post-trib rapture or return before he gathers the elect. But he also claims he will shorten the tribulation for the sake of the elect.
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
Mark 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter [therein], to take any thing out of his house:
Mark 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mark 13:19 For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
We see here Christ warning us about the coming of false Christ and prophets and earthly sorrows. Also he is addressing or warning all the saints of God here, not just one group of a coming tribulation just before his return. If its there its hard to deny, i see no mention of one group being raptured before these things, and one afterward. So we will have to agree to disagree here, for the time being.
God bless brother
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Bambi
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From these verses Jesus' kingdom isn't a physical but spiritual.
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Rom 14:17
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 4:20
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
Heb 12:28
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Rev 1:9
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If you read Revelation 20. This reign that is occurring isn't on earth it's in heaven. Plus it's say the saints that were beheaded. Every believer that ever lived did not all die from a beheading. Some died a peaceful death that comes from old age.
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Rom 14:17
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 4:20
20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
Heb 12:28
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Rev 1:9
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If you read Revelation 20. This reign that is occurring isn't on earth it's in heaven. Plus it's say the saints that were beheaded. Every believer that ever lived did not all die from a beheading. Some died a peaceful death that comes from old age.
Fellowservant
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Hi sister Bambi, Daniel chapter seven and Rev 20 tells us when the saints will possessed the kingdom. We are heirs of the kingdom and joint heirs with Christ. We have not yet fully received this kingdom in full. The time will come when the saints will inherit this kingdom in all its glory
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Rev 5 and 20 also mentions this reign...
Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
God bless sister
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Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is not about the church, but national Israel at the time of the end .... He speaks to his early followers as members of the nation of Israel
There is no "rapture" in the Lord's discourse regarding national Israel .... this event will have already taken place
He visible appearance at the end of the tribulation period is part of His discourse and the gatherings [no resurrections to immortality here] will be of the mortals who survive the tribulation of both Israel and the nations .... those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth .... as mortals
Mixing national Israel with the church in prophetic scripture is an error that many make and this leads to much confusion
National Israel at the time of the end [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36; Daniel 12; Joel 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 14]
The church in heaven with the Lord just before, and during the coming tribulation period [Revelation 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 19:1-9]
The church with the Lord at the end of the tribulation period [17:14; 19:11-14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]
There is no "rapture" in the Lord's discourse regarding national Israel .... this event will have already taken place
He visible appearance at the end of the tribulation period is part of His discourse and the gatherings [no resurrections to immortality here] will be of the mortals who survive the tribulation of both Israel and the nations .... those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth .... as mortals
Mixing national Israel with the church in prophetic scripture is an error that many make and this leads to much confusion
National Israel at the time of the end [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36; Daniel 12; Joel 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 14]
The church in heaven with the Lord just before, and during the coming tribulation period [Revelation 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 19:1-9]
The church with the Lord at the end of the tribulation period [17:14; 19:11-14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]
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Fellowservant
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Paul and Christ disagree with you, as well as me. If Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is not about the church, but national Israel at the time of the end.
Why is Christ coming at the end of these things with angels and a sound of a trumpet to gather the elect? Is this just for national Israel? I strongly disagree here.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You also say there is no immortality or should i say resurrection to life here in Matthew 24 or at the return of Christ after the tribulation? Brother, Paul tells us about the second coming in 1Co 15:51 and 1Th 4:16.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
When Christ returns and the trumpet sounds, Paul and Christ are telling us that this is the resurrection. This is not only for national Israel or the Jews. What is said in Matthew 24, will be world wide events, not just for the nation of Israel.
For one thing Christ here in Matthew 24 and so on, is warning us the saints, about the coming of false prophets and Christs just before the end.
National Israel doesn't believe in Christ as their Messiah, so why would they take heed to his warnings in Matthew 24? This is for the saints whether they are Jew or Gentile. So i guess we definitely disagree here.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
God bless
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PhoenixRising
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The Book Of Revelation is the appropriate name for what's inside it. Jesus chose this name to reveal His "last and final act". As always, as in everything He does, His choice of the name is spot-on and perfect!
It takes really walking and being in the spirit to truly but NOT fully understand what our Lord is revealing to His church.
After all, we cannot know the full extent of God's intentions. His thoughts are and will always be higher than our little mind can wrap itself around.
People can argue back and forth or disseminate information contained in Revelations, as they desire. I refuse to do so.
For someone who has the desire to know, I say ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and discernment before, during and throughout your study of this book.
The Book Of Revelation is NOT for the fainthearted, the non-serious reader or the merely curious.
God bless you all.
It takes really walking and being in the spirit to truly but NOT fully understand what our Lord is revealing to His church.
After all, we cannot know the full extent of God's intentions. His thoughts are and will always be higher than our little mind can wrap itself around.
People can argue back and forth or disseminate information contained in Revelations, as they desire. I refuse to do so.
For someone who has the desire to know, I say ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and discernment before, during and throughout your study of this book.
The Book Of Revelation is NOT for the fainthearted, the non-serious reader or the merely curious.
God bless you all.
Fellowservant,
There are two other moderators on this forum who threatened me for disagreeing with you so I will no longer post here .... I will observe for my current study of Internet sites, but will not post on a forum where moderators are biased, allowed to discredit those who have an indepth understanding of scripture [35 years], and are not willing to improve their knowledge of Bible prophecy
Stephen
There are two other moderators on this forum who threatened me for disagreeing with you so I will no longer post here .... I will observe for my current study of Internet sites, but will not post on a forum where moderators are biased, allowed to discredit those who have an indepth understanding of scripture [35 years], and are not willing to improve their knowledge of Bible prophecy
Stephen
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Fellowservant
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Hi brother Steven1 those mods that warned you in here, were warning you not to get to zealous or prideful with calling folks false teachers in here. Ie folks who have differing views than you do on prophecy and so on.
I don't thing Chad would allow complete heresy in here like full Preterism. But there have been many differing views that come and go and it is all none bias in here as far as i know with all the mods.
This had nothing to do with disagreeing with me, so i hope we get that strait. There have been many differing views in here that i have discussed, and not once did a mod warn anyone for disagreeing with me.
So that statement your making here is untrue. We are not biased in here or at least im not, so i hope we can resolve this...
God bless brother
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