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Calvinism

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Calvinism is a LIE!

Calvin - ism

Calvin's his own ism

Besides that man is not a robot!

Calvin-ism is a man made concept in whom John Calvin himself (man's wisdom) is exalted many follow after Calvin and not Jesus Christ sound doctrine.

TULIP is the system of Calvinism and if you thoroughly investigate it you will soon recognise it is all false. The whole calvinism thing it keeps you away from the Cross and The Blood of The Lord Jesus Christ by simple faith.
 
I am always interested in the historical development of doctrine and believe this can help shed light upon which doctrine is "more correct" than the other. From my research I found that the early church including the apostles and those who wrote the scriptures did not believe in strict Calvinism or Arminianism, but their views are much much closer to Arminianism than Calvinism. In general they believed in conditional election, and the free will of man (and argued against determinism as held by the gnostics) , but also believed man's sinful nature meant they could not be saved of their own efforts except by an act of His grace. Augustine (circa 300-400 ad) is said to be the first to introduce ideas that deny the free will of man, and this is sometimes attributed to his gnostic background before his conversion to Christianity. Calvinism as a whole doctrine is rooted in *some* of the teachings of Augustine and not the 100% Holy Scriptures.

That's funny I've never read Augustine or Calvin I just read the Bible and I believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, aka Calvinism.
 
That's funny I've never read Augustine or Calvin I just read the Bible and I believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, aka Calvinism.

A God that forces some people to go to hell is a God of Grace?

Armenian-ism and Calvinism are two extremes of a broad spectrum. There is also something called Wesley-ism that is somewhere in the middle.
For example.
Armenian-ism says if you sin, you better hurry up and ask for forgiveness in case you die in the next 5 minutes. There isn't a lot of grace there.
Extreme Calvinism says if you are sinning over and over again you really weren't saved in the first place. Not a lot of grace there either.
Wesley-ism says if you sin, there is grace, but if you sin, you should ask for forgiveness. Forgotten sins and sins that you haven't had a chance to ask for forgiveness for yet are covered by Grace.

Armenian-ism says if you sin too much and too often, you can lose your salvation.
Calvinism says once saved-always saved, but if you are living a life of sin, you never were saved.
Wesley-ism says you can't sin so much you lose your salvation, however you can sin so much you lose your faith, (we are saved by faith, un-saved by faithlessness)

Armenian-ism believes in total free-will.
Extreme-Calvinism believes in no free-will.
Wesley-ism believes God controls our choices and circumstances, but not our decisions.

Absolute power and control aren't required to be sovereign. The U.S. used to be a free country that was sovereignly ruled.
God is still God and reigns over all creation no matter what choices we make.
 
That's funny I've never read Augustine or Calvin I just read the Bible and I believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, aka Calvinism.

You don't need to read them, you can hear it from your friends, family or in your church. If you know about Calvinism you must get it from somewhere.
 
The Greek word for world is "kosmos" which has multiple meaning one of which is the universe. So Christ did die for the universe, he died for the renewal of creation from what Adam did in the garden. But to say he died for every human that's not possible because if he did then everyone goes to heaven and none go to hell.

What about this one?:
Romans 5
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

From these verses we can see that if Jesus did not die for everyone, then everyone is not a sinner. But I don't think even the extreme Calvinist will believe that everyone is not a sinner.



 
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A God that forces some people to go to hell is a God of Grace?

Absolute power and control aren't required to be sovereign. The U.S. used to be a free country that was sovereignly ruled.
God is still God and reigns over all creation no matter what choices we make.

God doesn't force anyone to go to hell. With the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, God convinces some, of their need for redemption.(Irresistible Grace) while others he lets them decide on their own without any influence.
 
What about this one?:
Romans 5
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

From these verses we can see that if Jesus did not die for everyone, then everyone is not a sinner. But I don't think even the extreme Calvinist will believe that everyone is not a sinner.



Adam's sinful nature was given to all. The offer of forgiveness it given to all. Christ being God knows that without an intervention by his grace all men will not accept his offer of forgiveness. So before the world began, Eph 1:4, Christ chose many sinners to receive his gift of salvation. And being God, Christ knew he only had to die for many sinners. John 10:3, 4, 11, 14, 15, 16, 26, 27.
 
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while others he lets them decide on their own without any influence.
Sounds a lot like free-will to me.

But even then, I'm pretty sure there is influence.

Rom 10:13; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14; How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15; How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16; However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17; So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
 
Adam's sinful nature was given to all. The offer of forgiveness it given to all. Christ being God knows that without an intervention by his grace all men will not accept his offer of forgiveness. So before the world began, Eph 1:4, Christ chose many sinners to receive his gift of salvation. And being God, Christ knew he only had to die for many sinners. John 10:3, 4, 11, 14, 15, 16, 26, 27.

If the offer of forgiveness is given to all, then Christ must have died for all. Because forgiveness only comes through Christ's blood. It's that simple.
 
Sounds a lot like free-will to me.

But even then, I'm pretty sure there is influence.

Rom 10:13; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14; How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15; How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16; However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17; So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

You're right it's free will but they will never chose Christ they will always chose self. Those who chose Christ where first chosen by God first.1 John 4:19
 
If the offer of forgiveness is given to all, then Christ must have died for all. Because forgiveness only comes through Christ's blood. It's that simple.

Then all will go to heaven and none go to hell.

Christ offers so those who reject him are without excuse. Since Christ is God and God is all knowing, God knows that those who are not elect will by their own "free-will" will reject that free offer. So he cannot die for them. Because if he did then they would get into heaven without having a changed heart.

Know this Christ didn't chose some because of anything they have done or would have done. Nor did he not chose some because of what they did. He chose some and not others because he is God.
 
Then all will go to heaven and none go to hell.

Christ offers so those who reject him are without excuse. Since Christ is God and God is all knowing, God knows that those who are not elect will by their own "free-will" will reject that free offer. So he cannot die for them. Because if he did then they would get into heaven without having a changed heart.

Know this Christ didn't chose some because of anything they have done or would have done. Nor did he not chose some because of what they did. He chose some and not others because he is God.


Isaiah 53:6. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
 
We don't seem to see eye to eye with this subject the only way either one of us will change is if God changes our hearts.

"I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody..."
Charles Spurgeon
 
Something you all should read is an article someone posted elsewhere:

Crux Theologorum: The Theologians’ Cross

(The theological question that cannot be answered)
1. We know that people are saved by God’s grace alone through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We further know that such saving faith is something that we cannot produce in ourselves; rather it is a gift of God worked in sinful and spiritually dead man by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the Word.
1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.
1 Corinthians 1:17-18 For Christ ... [sent me] to preach the gospel -- not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

2. We know that God earnestly desires all men to be saved.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 "Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"
1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

3. We know that those who are saved were chosen by God in Christ from before the creation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us ... – not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
Romans 8:28-30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

4. We know that those who are not saved have only themselves to blame.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, `As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
Proverbs 1:24 But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand.

Here’s the big question: How do we reconcile these statements? If God wants everyone to be saved, and people are saved only by the power and grace of God, why isn’t everyone saved?


This is the Crux Theologorum: Why are some saved and not others?

Two historic attempts to answer this question dominate in theological circles. They are:

Calvinism: which says, “Because God chose some to be saved and others to be damned. Jesus Christ died only for the chosen or ‘elect’. If you are one of the elect, you will eventually come to faith in the Gospel and be saved; if not, there is nothing you can do. God glorifies himself by condemning you to Hell.” (This is the historic position of the Presbyterian, Baptist, and Christian Reformed Churches.)
Arminianism: which says, “Because it’s a question of free will. Every person has the capacity to choose to believe in Jesus and follow him or not to. Those who choose Jesus are saved. Those who do not are damned.” (This is the historic position of Methodist and Pentecostal Churches, and the present position of most US Baptist and nondenominational Churches.)

The problem with both positions is that they deny clear Scripture. The Calvinist denies that God really wants all men to be saved. The Arminian makes a fallen human’s decision to believe in Jesus and follow him the final factor, denying that man is dead in sin and that salvation is entirely the work of God. Both positions, unfortunately, take the focus of faith off the Gospel of Christ.

How do we resolve this dilemma? We don’t. Why not? Because Scripture does not give us the answer. So instead, we acknowledge the paradox (it’s one of many in the Scriptures like, for example, the Trinity of the Godhead and the Incarnation of the Son of God), and we let what appears to be a contradiction to us to stand as it is.


And we say:

If a person is saved, it is entirely the work of God.

If a person is not saved, it is entirely the fault of the person.

But someone will protest: “That doesn’t make sense!” To which we respond, “That’s right, it doesn’t make sense—at least not to us. But then, it doesn’t have to make sense to us to be true”:

Isaiah 40:13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor?
Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
Romans 11:33-34 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"

And there’s an important reason why the question must remain unresolved. It’s so that the salvation of humankind can rest entirely on the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his work for us on the cross. Here’s why:

1. The Calvinist really doesn’t need to trust in the Gospel. His focus is taken off what Jesus did; and the big questions in his life are, “Did God choose me?” and “Am I one of the elect?”
2. The Arminian really doesn’t need to trust the Gospel either. His focus is also taken off what Jesus did; and the big question in his life is, “Did I decide for Jesus?” or “Did I choose Jesus?” Or, stated another way, “Did I do my part?”

And here’s where the failure of both Calvinism and Arminianism is revealed: sooner or later every Christian wants to find some kind of assurance of their salvation. Eventually every Christian will ask, “How do I know for sure that I am saved? How can I tell?” And here’s the problem: neither the Calvinist nor the Arminian can simply look to the cross and their Savior for assurance. Why not? Because the work of Christ on the cross for the Calvinist is only helpful if he’s one of the elect – and he doesn’t know that for sure. Likewise, the work of Christ on the cross is helpful for the Arminian only if he properly decides for Jesus and chooses to follow him with sufficient faithfulness – and of that he can never be quite certain. So, since neither can look to Christ for assurance, they must look someplace else. And oddly enough, both will end up looking in the same place. Both know from the Scripture that people are saved by faith, and that saving faith produces good works. So they end up looking for the proof of their election (Calvinist) or the sincerity of their decision for Jesus (Arminian) in their own lives. The question then becomes: “Do I see ample evidence of the fruits of faith in my life?” Or, stated another way, “Am I doing enough good works to confirm my faith?”

Unfortunately, there’s no comfort there. Such an examination will always lead either to despair or to self-righteousness. If they’re honest with themselves, they will see lots of sin, and few and flawed good works; and so be convinced of their damnation. If they’re not so honest, they may close their eyes to their many sins and deceive themselves into believing that they’re doing well enough in their Christian walk, and smugly assume they’re saved. Notice that neither is looking to Christ for assurance of their salvation. Both have made the assurance of saving faith a question of their subjective evaluations of their own works.

Fortunately for us, assurance of salvation is found only in the objective Gospel. By leaving the question unresolved to human satisfaction, God forces our faith to rest on what Christ has done for us. So, when struggling with the question, “How do I know for sure that I am saved?” we can boldly answer, “Because Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose again for my justification.” Letting the paradox stand directs the doubting soul to Christ and his work alone where it belongs.


Finally, it’s worth noting one more faulty attempt to resolve this paradox that is sometimes put forth by well intentioned but erring teachers. It’s an attempt to synthesize the election of God from eternity past with the so-called “free will” of the Arminian. The basic notion is that God foresees those who will one day come to faith in Jesus by the exercise of their free will, and in view of their proper choice he elects to save them. Theologians who support this view sometimes use the Latin phrase and say that God elects people intuitu fidei; that is, “in view of their faith”. The mistakes inherent in this idea are fairly obvious. First, it’s clear that such “election” on God’s part is not really election at all. He is not choosing or foreordaining anything. He is simply ratifying and supporting the decision of the individual that he foresees will be made in time. Secondly, salvation in this scheme is still entirely left up to a fallen, spiritually dead person’s choice. Therefore all the errors and subsequent problems related to Arminianism remain.

It is, of course, very tempting to seek some resolution to the paradox that is the Crux Theologorum. But the simple facts are these: God has not revealed to us the answer to the question. And all human attempts to resolve the problem must first deny part of what God has plainly revealed, and their answers ultimately direct a person’s faith away from the work of Jesus on the cross to something else. Therefore it is best to simply accept what God has said about this issue, trust in Christ alone, and leave the resolution of what seems to be a contradiction to the limited mind of man to God who is all wise.

I not only found it interesting, but satisfying after banging my head against the wall trying to decide if Calvinism or Arminianism is correct.
 
Bambi (and, others in the Calvinist camp) ~

I'm curious: Do you do anything in your life that might "challenge" destiny? Do you try to "alter" the course of what might otherwise be?


Do you check your mirrors when changing lanes? Look before you cross the road? Check the soft spot in your apple before eating it to make sure it's not a worm? Put ice on your kid's head when they have a temperature to try to alleviate it? Believe that if a light-bulb doesn't work when it's brand new...it might be something other than destiny...it might have simply been broken?

Do you think? How 'bout feel? Do you reason? This might get tricky...but do you pray?

Do you take risks? Do you call them risks? Are they actually risky?

Do you believe these are all simply straw-men arguments?


Honestly, please answer....for all these questions. And answer...

Why?
 
Bambi (and, others in the Calvinist camp) ~

I'm curious: Do you do anything in your life that might "challenge" destiny? Do you try to "alter" the course of what might otherwise be?


Do you check your mirrors when changing lanes? Look before you cross the road? Check the soft spot in your apple before eating it to make sure it's not a worm? Put ice on your kid's head when they have a temperature to try to alleviate it? Believe that if a light-bulb doesn't work when it's brand new...it might be something other than destiny...it might have simply been broken?

Do you think? How 'bout feel? Do you reason? This might get tricky...but do you pray?

Do you take risks? Do you call them risks? Are they actually risky?

Do you believe these are all simply straw-men arguments?


Honestly, please answer....for all these questions. And answer...

Why?

No, I don't because we should never do these things on purpose, with the belief that God will save us. This is called tempting God.
I believe in God's sovereignty. I believe that for believers there is no such thing as coincidences. Every hair on the head that falls and every sparrow is under God's control.
But when I haven't gone to the doctor , He has healed me. When I have failed to look in my mirrors when changing lanes, I somehow missed the other vehicles. In times when I've been careless, God has proved His sovereignty and protection.
The Arminian might say that our disobedience, and failures, can out do or remove God's sovereignty. But in the case of Abraham (and Isaac), Moses (and the murdered Egyptian), David (and bathsheba) and many other cases, our disobedience, or our stupidity, is covered by His sovereignty and grace.

For those who love God: Rom 8:28 : All things work together for good.
 
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No, I don't because we should never do these things on purpose, with the belief that God will save us. This is called tempting God.

You look when you cross the street, because if you didn't, that would be "tempting God" by inherently asking Him to save you? Sorry...but I'll have to call bluff on that one. I think you look because if you don't, you might die
.
But when I haven't gone to the doctor , He has healed me. When I have failed to look in my mirrors when changing lanes, I somehow missed the other vehicles. In times when I've been careless, God has proved His sovereignty and protection.

Here's the real test: how might your thinking change if you got mangled in a car wreck or got cancer by not checking in with your doctor earlier? Would that be your fault? God's? Satan's? Bad luck? Chance? ...or...no one's fault? (if that's where you land...how do you mentally think that one through?)

Question: What do you call a Christian whose business takes off and makes him wealthy?
Answer: A Calvinist and one of the Elect.

Question: What do you call a bankrupt Christian?
Answer: A former Calvinist



I simply don't believe Calvinists. I don't really believe there is such a thing as a true Calvinist: someone that would adhere to that ideology in all of life's circumstances.
 
Bambi (and, others in the Calvinist camp) ~

I'm curious: Do you do anything in your life that might "challenge" destiny? Do you try to "alter" the course of what might otherwise be?

Am I God? How do I alter my destiny when I don't even know it?


Do you check your mirrors when changing lanes? Look before you cross the road? Check the soft spot in your apple before eating it to make sure it's not a worm? Put ice on your kid's head when they have a temperature to try to alleviate it? Believe that if a light-bulb doesn't work when it's brand new...it might be something other than destiny...it might have simply been broken?

Why wouldn't I check? It would be foolish not too. Why wouldn't I try to alleviate my child"s temperature? To not to would be un-Christian.

Do you think? How 'bout feel? Do you reason? This might get tricky...but do you pray?

Do you?

Do you take risks? Do you call them risks? Are they actually risky?

Am I God to know how things will work out in the end? We are human we take risks every moment of the day.

Do you believe these are all simply straw-men arguments?

Yes


Honestly, please answer....for all these questions. And answer...

Why?

All Calvinist are not HYPER-Calvinist
 
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Am I God? How do I alter my destiny when I don't even know it?

And what if you were God? If you were, would you change Joe-blow's destiny? Would you even know what Joe-blow's destiny is? Of course, the obvious answer to the latter question is "of course He [God] knows the future"!!! He's God. He knows all things past present future...but...really? To say that with surety...and understand all its implications would assume on very important thing first: That we can actually understand TIME.

And that is...uh...quite a claim.

And this is the problem with the whole "debate". Calvinists put to rest this question of time by building a man-made framework that is disingenuous. Armenians are probably a little dogmatic the other way too. But how can we truly understand God and how he "deals with" time, vs. how we live our lives throughout the continuum of time?


As for how you alter your destiny? Well...you do it every day by making choices.

Calvinism's greatest tragedy is that it removes the brain from the heart with even greater distance than our normal tendencies. I'm not sure how the Calvinist stays in touch with their hearts, desires, wants/needs. I mean...in the end, why does any of this matter at all when your choices are simply you, playing your pre-scripted role? You think you're more than a robot or actress, but truly...you're not...!?

I can't understand how Calvinists view risks, or why said "risks" are risky. What is risk under the context that everything is predestined? All outcomes are neither good, nor bad...they are just outcomes. They are as it was designed to be, right? And if you believe that these outcomes were designed by God...and you believe God is good...then EVERY outcome is....good. Even mass genocide, rape, torture, death, murder, theft, etc.


Honestly...I can't fathom what a risk would look like under the Calvinist view. "Hyper" or not...all Calvinists believe in this predestined thing...and in my mind, all of that category of believe is woefully misguided
 
And what if you were God? If you were, would you change Joe-blow's destiny? Would you even know what Joe-blow's destiny is? Of course, the obvious answer to the latter question is "of course He [God] knows the future"!!! He's God. He knows all things past present future...but...really? To say that with surety...and understand all its implications would assume on very important thing first: That we can actually understand TIME.

And that is...uh...quite a claim.


And this is the problem with the whole "debate". Calvinists put to rest this question of time by building a man-made framework that is disingenuous. Armenians are probably a little dogmatic the other way too. But how can we truly understand God and how he "deals with" time, vs. how we live our lives throughout the continuum of time?

So you don't believe God is all-knowing?

As for how you alter your destiny? Well...you do it every day by making choices.

You never alter your destiny. God knew before the world began how your life would be. What impact it would have in the world today. Our faults and our successes. God created us. He is sovereign over all.

Calvinism's greatest tragedy is that it removes the brain from the heart with even greater distance than our normal tendencies. I'm not sure how the Calvinist stays in touch with their hearts, desires, wants/needs. I mean...in the end, why does any of this matter at all when your choices are simply you, playing your pre-scripted role? You think you're more than a robot or actress, but truly...you're not...!?

Calvinist do not believe they are robots or actors. They believe that God is sovereign. He is All-Knowing, All-Powerful, Eternal, etc. We can do things that aren't righteous and holy, but that doesn't mean we have altered our destiny or that God isn't in control pulling the strings. God is still in control even when I fail him and I am not a robot when I do the right things. God's sovereignty and man's choices seem to our finite mind as two opposing views, but they're not. They are working side by side for the glory of God.

I can't understand how Calvinists view risks, or why said "risks" are risky. What is risk under the context that everything is predestined? All outcomes are neither good, nor bad...they are just outcomes. They are as it was designed to be, right? And if you believe that these outcomes were designed by God...and you believe God is good...then EVERY outcome is....good. Even mass genocide, rape, torture, death, murder, theft, etc.

Old Testament, Joseph, sold into slavery by his brothers. Spent more than 20 years as a slave and prisoner. Then became the second in command of Egypt. When he revealed himself to his brothers he says to them. "You (his brothers) meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Gen 50:20.

Mass genocide, rape, torture, death, murder, theft, etc are evil things, are bad and sinful, but God can use them for our good. That doesn't mean that they are good it means good can be the result of evil. Joseph and his brothers story, his brothers wanted to do evil against Joseph, God used their evil to bring about good for the children of Israel. By sending Joseph to Egypt this saved them from a future famine, from starvation.


Honestly...I can't fathom what a risk would look like under the Calvinist view. "Hyper" or not...all Calvinists believe in this predestined thing...and in my mind, all of that category of believe is woefully misguided

What is your definition of the word, "Risk"? My definition is doing something with an outcome that is not known. Just because I don't know doesn't mean God doesn't know. Doesn't mean it's going to be bad doesn't mean it's going to be good. It just means I don't know the outcome. Doesn't mean I'm not trusting God for the outcome, I just don't know what the outcome will be. If the outcome is bad then my choice was wrong, but God is still in control. He can still use it for good.
 
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