Can a Believer Sin?

[Christ4Ever]

To simplify the search, for an answer I've broken this down into two areas. Which we can easily see can have many subsections to it. I've added a subject section for each as well as a couple of verses for each answer.

My hope is that with this discussion greater revelation of His Word will occur, for hopefully the continued love and uplifting of the Body of Christ. Though the result of this may still lead some to an impasse. We can at least continue to respect and love each others as Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus or until the Sword of the Spirit; His Word; is opened again to this subject!!!

Let this be our guide.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. ... 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
C4E
<><

NOTE: You can change your vote after careful consideration, prayer and revelation :thumbsup:

Follow-up for those who checked 1 - NO

Question: One should then ask and find where sin has ceased to be held to account or somehow redefined for the believer? Subsection being were they ever believers in the first place

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Follow-up for those who checked 2 -YES

Question: One should then ask and find whether the believer can be forgiven of additional sin after being Born Again? Subsection being repentance or the lack thereof

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[amadeus2]

If we check the epistles of the apostle Paul as well as the other post-gospels writings, we will see that they are usually, if not always, addressed to believers, who have messed up [sinned!] since they first believed.

I really want to be an overcome as Jesus was an overcomer, but the "old man" is not completely and finally dead yet. While he is not, he keeps wanting to regain the dominion that he once had in me. Too often since first believing, I have quenched the Spirit of God and followed the old man's lead into sin again. The times have grown fewer by the grace and mercy of God, but still there is room for improvement.

God does want us to be sinless and while He has in this set before us an impossible task for a man of flesh alone, for a man of flesh with God in him who never quenches the Holy Spirit, it is not impossible. Give God always the glory.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@amadeus2
Thank-you for sharing my brother!

 

[RJ]

To simplify the search, for an answer I've broken this down into two areas. Which we can easily see can have many subsections to it. I've added a subject section for each as well as a couple of verses for each answer.

My hope is that with this discussion greater revelation of His Word will occur, for hopefully the continued love and uplifting of the Body of Christ. Though the result of this may still lead some to an impasse. We can at least continue to respect and love each others as Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus or until the Sword of the Spirit; His Word; is opened again to this subject!!!

Let this be our guide.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. ... 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
C4E
<><

NOTE: You can change your vote after careful consideration, prayer and revelation :thumbsup:

Follow-up for those who checked 1 - NO

Question: One should then ask and find where sin has ceased to be held to account or somehow redefined for the believer? Subsection being were they ever believers in the first place

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Follow-up for those who checked 2 -YES

Question: One should then ask and find whether the believer can be forgiven of additional sin after being Born Again? Subsection being repentance or the lack thereof

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Yes, and thank God for Paul and Romans 8:1 !

 

[Bendito]

To simplify the search, for an answer I've broken this down into two areas. Which we can easily see can have many subsections to it. I've added a subject section for each as well as a couple of verses for each answer.

My hope is that with this discussion greater revelation of His Word will occur, for hopefully the continued love and uplifting of the Body of Christ. Though the result of this may still lead some to an impasse. We can at least continue to respect and love each others as Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus or until the Sword of the Spirit; His Word; is opened again to this subject!!!

Let this be our guide.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. ... 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
C4E
<><

NOTE: You can change your vote after careful consideration, prayer and revelation :thumbsup:

Follow-up for those who checked 1 - NO

Question: One should then ask and find where sin has ceased to be held to account or somehow redefined for the believer? Subsection being were they ever believers in the first place

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Follow-up for those who checked 2 -YES

Question: One should then ask and find whether the believer can be forgiven of additional sin after being Born Again? Subsection being repentance or the lack thereof

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The way this is worded is kind of a trap. There is no right answer.... The question, in my opinion should be; 'Does a Believer Continue in Sin?' To this I answer NO. Your question was 'Can a Believer Sin' to which I have to answer Yes. See what I mean?

1 John 5:18 (AMP)

18 We know [with confidence] that anyone born of God does not habitually sin; but He (Jesus) who was born of God [carefully] keeps and protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.


1 John 5:1 (CJB)

18 We know that everyone who has God as his Father does not go on sinning; on the contrary, the Son born of God protects him, and the Evil One does not touch him.


1 John 5:18-21 (MSG)

18-21 We know that none of the God-begotten makes a practice of sin—fatal sin. The God-begotten are also the God-protected. The Evil One can’t lay a hand on them. We know that we are held firm by God; it’s only the people of the world who continue in the grip of the Evil One. And we know that the Son of God came so we could recognize and understand the truth of God—what a gift!—and we are living in the Truth itself, in God’s Son, Jesus Christ. This Jesus is both True God and Real Life. Dear children, be on guard against all clever facsimiles.


1 John 5:18 (MEV)

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not keep on sinning. But whoever has been born of God guards himself, and the wicked one cannot touch him.

 

[RJ]

The way this is worded is kind of a trap. There is no right answer.... The question, in my opinion should be; 'Does a Believer Continue in Sin?' To this I answer NO. Your question was 'Can a Believer Sin' to which I have to answer Yes. See what I mean?

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never sins.
A Christian sins yes, willfully no!

 

[Bendito]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never sins.
A Christian sins yes, willfully no!

LOL I said that too...I think that for once we are agreed.

 

[amadeus2]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never sins.
A Christian sins yes, willfully no!

Then again who is born of God? Consider the natural birth process. The child (fetus or whatever) is alive in the mother (the initial Life provided by God), but it has not been born until it comes out of the womb. Some who have been drawn to the Lord have received some Life, but they have perhaps never left the womb. Some have come out stillborn.

When they do come out are they ready to do everything that natural life requires of an individual just to survive? No, when they come out into the natural light, they very dependent upon especially the mother, but upon someone to get the point that they can fend for themselves. Why would it be different with a spiritual birth, that is a person who is "born again" or "born from above"?

How does the newborn infant compare with the 1st man Adam? Adam was born of God ( Luke 3:38) yet he was cut off because of his failure. Are we better than Adam?

 

[Bendito]

Then again who is born of God? Consider the natural birth process. The child (fetus or whatever) is alive in the mother (the initial Life provided by God), but it has not been born until it comes out of the womb. Some who have been drawn to the Lord have received some Life, but they have perhaps never left the womb. Some have come out stillborn.

When they do come out are they ready to do everything that natural life requires of an individual just to survive? No, when they come out into the natural light, they very dependent upon especially the mother, but upon someone to get the point that they can fend for themselves. Why would it be different with a spiritual birth, that is a person who is "born again" or "born from above"?

How does the newborn infant compare with the 1st man Adam? Adam was born of God ( Luke 3:38) yet he was cut off because of his failure. Are we better than Adam?

Did Adam have an empty mind when he was born? Or did God make him and Adam had all the knowledge he needed when he took his first breath? When he was sent out of the garden, did he forget everything he knew? We don't know and it would be a waste of time to speculate. Still what you say does apply today. A person born of water needs to be taught almost everything. A person born of the spirit is the same... When a person is born again he has a brand new living spirit. Before he died his spirit was dead in sin...So now his spirit and the Holy Spirit are together and the Holy Spirit starts teaching him... If he learns and obeys he will not make sin a habit or a way of life....That's all this means. Will he slip now and again? Of course but if he acknowledges his sins, then God is trustworthy and just, He will forgive them and purify him from all wrongdoing. 1 John 1:9 (CJB)

 

[RJ]

then God is trustworthy and just, He will forgive them and purify him from all wrongdoing. 1 John 1:9 (CJB)

Was this scripture verse for the believer and that they need to continue to ask for forgiveness each time they sin,-or-, was it written to the unbeliever on what was required for receiving forgiveness and salvation?

 

[amadeus2]

Did Adam have an empty mind when he was born? Or did God make him and Adam had all the knowledge he needed when he took his first breath? When he was sent out of the garden, did he forget everything he knew? We don't know and it would be a waste of time to speculate. Still what you say does apply today. A person born of water needs to be taught almost everything. A person born of the spirit is the same... When a person is born again he has a brand new living spirit. Before he died his spirit was dead in sin...So now his spirit and the Holy Spirit are together and the Holy Spirit starts teaching him... If he learns and obeys he will not make sin a habit or a way of life....That's all this means. Will he slip now and again? Of course but if he acknowledges his sins, then God is trustworthy and just, He will forgive them and purify him from all wrongdoing. 1 John 1:9 (CJB)

I am not certain I see all this as you, but your scenario is OK. I

see that while we do have a "new spirit" (the "new" or "inner man" spoken of by Paul) we also still have the "old man", the one who has always been of a sinful nature and has always been dead to God. When that "old man" is completely dead... then we will no longer be double-minded (see James) and will we also no longer be tempted to sin?

Is that what happened to Jesus? While Jesus never sinned he was a man of flesh and he was tempted. I believe he finally killed his "old man" (the one subject to temptation) in Gethsemene [Matt 26:39-44]. After that Jesus was not only no longer in the world (his own world of fleshly temptations).

"And now I am no more IN the world, but these are in the world," John 17:11

He still had to go to the cross, but he was completely ready to make that final sacrifice.

 

[Bendito]

Was this scripture verse for the believer and that they need to continue to ask for forgiveness each time they sin,-or-, was it written to the unbeliever on what was required for receiving forgiveness and salvation?

Yes I read it twice just now and I'm convinced Paul was writing this to other Christians. RJ, if you were to sin, it would at least be good manners to apologize to God, don't you think? But look at the verse...If we confess out sin He is faithful..... It seems to me we would be very unsmart to not come to Him when we fall in our walk. What do you think?
I also agree that it would stand just the same for an unbeliever who comes to Him....He did it for you and I when we accepted Him.....

 

[Bendito]

I am not certain I see all this as you, but your scenario is OK. I

see that while we do have a "new spirit" (the "new" or "inner man" spoken of by Paul) we also still have the "old man", the one who has always been of a sinful nature and has always been dead to God. When that "old man" is completely dead... then we will no longer be double-minded (see James) and will we also no longer be tempted to sin?

Is that what happened to Jesus? While Jesus never sinned he was a man of flesh and he was tempted. I believe he finally killed his "old man" (the one subject to temptation) in Gethsemene [Matt 26:39-44]. After that Jesus was not only no longer in the world (his own world of fleshly temptations).

"And now I am no more IN the world, but these are in the world," John 17:11

He still had to go to the cross, but he was completely ready to make that final sacrifice.

My friend, when you were born again you died and were born anew. What part of you died? Your body? No. Your soul? No It was your spirit that died...That is the old man that died and a new man was born, an entirely NEW creation....Look again my friend, You died, you were born again, part you and part Holy Spirit...Yes the Holy Spirit merged with you. You cannot separate Him from you...That makes you actually more than human. You are a hybrid if you can accept that. You have God's dna as a part of you.
What you are fighting now is the old way of thinking...habits if you will. That's the 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' that we see in the Word...Replacing our old foolish way of thinking with God's Word and His way of thinking. Ya! And just as Jesus was tempted and chose not to follow Satan's lure, you also have the choice to send the enemy running....Resist the enemy, (actively come against him) and he will flee from you...That's what Jesus did....Satan said " Make these stones bread..." and Jesus said "Thus says the Word.." Right? That's what we are to do...Resist the enemy until he says "Oh darn! Amadeus is awake again!" The only time he gets any rest is when you're sleeping...

Jesus didn't have an old man...He was always perfect...Still He could have chosen to bow His knee to Satan...He suffered, He got physically weak, He got tired and worn out...His flesh had a loud voice too, like us.... But He did not....

 

[rag4aCrown]

Renewing your mind by washing of water by the Word; transformation is happening. Praise God. The Potter is fine tuning the vessel of clay. Glory to God. Yes, we do step out of the Way, but we do not stay there as the Holy Spirit chastisement is upon His kids. Amen. I may have a very dark moment, I may react on it out of rage, I may try to pursue but God is the beginning and the end. Thank you Lord. As I find myself on my face, crying out Abba Father; and when I am released and pick myself up out of the dirt, I am refreshed and made brand new, my burden is gone and I am free of the bondage I tried to fix. Thank you my Lord Jesus; I am at your feet Lord.

 

[RJ]

Yes I read it twice just now and I'm convinced Paul was writing this to other Christians. RJ, if you were to sin, it would at least be good manners to apologize to God, don't you think? But look at the verse...If we confess out sin He is faithful..... It seems to me we would be very unsmart to not come to Him when we fall in our walk. What do you think?
I also agree that it would stand just the same for an unbeliever who comes to Him....He did it for you and I when we accepted Him.....

I think that legalism perpetuates this mis-interpretation. For a person to believe that , once saved, you must keeping asking for forgiveness is incorrect. Having a repentant heart and hating sin is one thing but having to go to God and ask forgiveness for each and every sin committed is denying what Jesus did on the cross and lends itself to works as being required to stay saved. I would like to think that God would ask : "Why are you continually coming to me for what I have already provided?"
From what I have researched, agnosticism was prevalent during this time. Of course John would gain by reassuring Christians of what they had already done but 1 John 1:9 was a plea to agnostics on what was required for them to go ahead and receive God's salvation.

 

[Bendito]

I think that legalism perpetuates this mis-interpretation. For a person to believe that , once saved, you must keeping asking for forgiveness is incorrect. Having a repentant heart and hating sin is one thing but having to go to God and ask forgiveness for each and every sin committed is denying what Jesus did on the cross and lends itself to works as being required to stay saved. I would like to think that God would ask : "Why are you continually coming to me for what I have already provided?"
From what I have researched, agnosticism was prevalent during this time. Of course John would gain by reassuring Christians of what they had already done but 1 John 1:9 was a plea to agnostics on what was required for them to go ahead and receive God's salvation.

If you offend why would you not ask forgiveness..You would ask forgiveness if you offended me and I'm not even important to most people..
but to offend God..... I would want to ask Him to forgive me every time. I love Him and would never want to offend Him and I want Him to know how sorry I am each time I offend. I really don't know what agnosticism has to do with that...John was not talking to agnostics.

 

[Ophel]

I think that legalism perpetuates this mis-interpretation. For a person to believe that , once saved, you must keeping asking for forgiveness is incorrect. Having a repentant heart and hating sin is one thing but having to go to God and ask forgiveness for each and every sin committed is denying what Jesus did on the cross and lends itself to works as being required to stay saved. I would like to think that God would ask : "Why are you continually coming to me for what I have already provided?"
From what I have researched, agnosticism was prevalent during this time. Of course John would gain by reassuring Christians of what they had already done but 1 John 1:9 was a plea to agnostics on what was required for them to go ahead and receive God's salvation.

I actually agree with this.

Repentance is different than confession.

When we come to Christ for salvation, we repent, and in so doing, immediately His blood not only covers our sin, but eradicates it ALL! When our flesh rises up and we sin, we do not have to repent, but we do need to confess to God, which is to agree with Him that we have sinned, and we thank Him for His forgiveness that we have already received in the atonement! Then we get up, allow Jesus to brush us off and go on!

In 1 John 1:9, and by the Greek verb tense therein, we receive the wisdom from the Lord that the blood of Jesus is working continuously to cleanse us of all our sins

1 John 1:9 (AMP)
If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].


.

 

[Bendito]

I actually agree with this.

Repentance is different than confession.

When we come to Christ for salvation, we repent, and in so doing, immediately His blood not only covers our sin, but eradicates it ALL! When our flesh rises up and we sin, we do not have to repent, but we do need to confess to God, which is to agree with Him that we have sinned, and we thank Him for His forgiveness that we have already received in the atonement! Then we get up, allow Jesus to brush us off and go on!

In 1 John 1:9, and by the Greek verb tense therein, we receive the wisdom from the Lord that the blood of Jesus is working continuously to cleanse us of all our sins

1 John 1:9 (AMP)
If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].


.

Oh That's soooo much clearer than I said it...Thank you Ophel

 

[RJ]

If you offend why would you not ask forgiveness..

There is nothing wrong with it, I tell him all the time, when I am made aware of it. The crucial issue, is thinking it is important to go to him each time to remain in his grace. If it were required, you would have to do it for every sin, 24/7, never missing one sin! When you go to him, go with a repentant heart and thank him for what he has already done. God said he would look at your sin no more and that he doesn't keep records of wrong doing. That's what it means to be set free; not that you sin willfully, but that you hate sin and are repentant.

and I want Him to know how sorry I am each time I offend

Unless you are perfect, what about the times you sin and don't know or are made aware of it. Don't say Jesus will take of those....you mean he only died for the sins you don't see?...."he died once and for all "!

I really don't know what agnosticism has to do with tha

Agnostic does not understand are agree with salvation by grace or any other means. I think it is very safe to say that during the time of John, That theologians agree that agnosticism was very prevalent during that time and would be in need of salvation.

 

[Bendito]

There is nothing wrong with it, I tell him all the time, when I am made aware of it. The crucial issue, is thinking it is important to go to him each time to remain in his grace. If it were required, you would have to do it for every sin, 24/7, never missing one sin! When you go to him, go with a repentant heart and thank him for what he has already done. God said he would look at your sin no more and that he doesn't keep records of wrong doing. That's what it means to be set free; not that you sin willfully, but that you hate sin and are repentant.

Unless you are perfect, what about the times you sin and don't know or are made aware of it. Don't say Jesus will take of those....you mean he only died for the sins you don't see?...."he died once and for all "!

Agnostic does not understand are agree with salvation by grace or any other means. I think it is very safe to say that during the time of John, That theologians agree that agnosticism was very prevalent during that time and would be in need of salvation.

You said "The crucial issue, is thinking it is important to go to him each time to remain in his grace."
Here's the thing....You are the righteousness of God in Christ. You step out of righteousness into sin, you confess that sin and God is faithful and just to forgive the sin and restore you to righteousness...Nothing wrong with that! I'll take it any day.

You said "Unless you are perfect, what about the times you sin and don't know or are made aware of it. Don't say Jesus will take of those....you mean he only died for the sins you don't see?...."he died once and for all "
Well I think you answered that above...Jesus died for all our sins...Listen....Do you go to the Father and ask Him to search your heart for hidden sins? Of course you do...So He makes them known, you confess them, acknowledging that they are sin and you ask the Father to forgive them and He is faithful and just to forgive the sins and restore you to righteousness.
And frankly I really don't care about agnosticism. I'm not agnostic and I'm sure you're not either...