CAN UNKNOWING SIN BE ABSOLVED OR FORGIVEN?

[Kirby D. P.]

I gotta say, this is giving me much more (and better) food for thought than most of the experts I've been reading. Thanks again.

 

[king1]

Kirby, Thank you for raising the Question and seeking Truth.

Love Delights In Truth, Truth without Love is a resounding Gong.

 

[Curtis]

Thank you, Thiscrosshurts.

I do read the Bible. These points, all excellent and illuminating, still leave me wondering at a world wherein, if I take these points correctly, one man's sin might be another man's virtue. I get that, if both accept Christ then Christ accepts both. But why then is there so much emphasis in many ministries on which specific acts constitute sin and so much energy devoted to indoctrination against them.

Sorry if your foregoing response already covers this and I'm just being a bit dense. I am re-reading it a few times (and browsing the relevant chapters you cite).

Once a person becomes a Christian, by confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord, and savior, there is great mercy and grace given to this person, because he knows nothing about the Word of God which gives light (understanding). There is something that all people have, which is knowing the difference between right and wrong that all men inherited when Adam, and Eve ate from the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil" This knowledge comes to man through his "conscience", but is limited. If we did not have this we would never want God, as this helped us know when we heard the Gospel that it was "right, and good"

The Word of God is the ultimate source for knowing reality, and truth. God holds man accountable for what he knows which God gives man through understanding of his Word. Obviously we do not understand all of the Word of God at once, as it takes time (a life time, and then some) to learn. What ever light a man has which was given to him by God requires that to man walk in it. What about the "light" that we don't have? What we do not know is where we stumble and fall into sin, but God tells us in his Word......

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

As long as we walk in the light we do have, then the Blood of Jesus Christ will continually cleanse us from ALL sin. God only holds us accountable for what we do know, not what we don't know. This is why some people will call one thing sin, and others do not.. Unto much is given, much is required. (Luke 12:48) The rebirth human spirit which is were Christ lives enlightens our "conscience" in which if you do a "search" in the New Testament you will find all the Apostles made sure they lived with a "clear conscience" their entire life!!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

As long as we walk in the light we do have, then the Blood of Jesus Christ will continually cleanse us from ALL sin. God only holds us accountable for what we do know, not what we don't know. This is why some people will call one thing sin, and others do not..

Hi, Curtis.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I have to say I find this perspective extremely troubling. It makes naturalistic ethical relativism seem like etched-in-stone moral law by comparison. I'll take an extreme example, simply to illustrate the point. If a man rapes my virgin daughter, I am religiously entitled to have that man marry her and to charge him fifty silver shekels. (Deut 22:28-29) As one of the OT laws the gospels do not explicitly contravene, by your description, I have either not sinned or, if it is an unknowing sin and in every other way I walk in the Light of Christ, I am forgiven for it, without any compelling reason not to do it again with another of my daughters in the future.

Now, I would consider anyone who induces a daughter to marry a rapist to have sinned, or at least committed an act of evil. I see this as sin, they do not. I every other respect, we are both devout Christians.

Does God actually sit on the fence?

 

[Curtis]

Hi, Curtis.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I have to say I find this perspective extremely troubling. It makes naturalistic ethical relativism seem like etched-in-stone moral law by comparison. I'll take an extreme example, simply to illustrate the point. If a man rapes my virgin daughter, I am religiously entitled to have that man marry her and to charge him fifty silver shekels. (Deut 22:28-29) As one of the OT laws the gospels do not explicitly contravene, by your description, I have either not sinned or, if it is an unknowing sin and in every other way I walk in the Light of Christ, I am forgiven for it, without any compelling reason not to do it again with another of my daughters in the future.

Now, I would consider anyone who induces a daughter to marry a rapist to have sinned, or at least committed an act of evil. I see this as sin, they do not. I every other respect, we are both devout Christians.

Does God actually sit on the fence?

If a man rapes your daughter not only is that a sin, but also against the law. We are not under the law but grace. What is required of you would be to "forgive" this person, not pay anything. That might sound impossible, and it is with man, not with God!!
Sin is not only something we do as a act, but it also something we "DO NOT DO"!! What if you know what you are suppose to do, and not do it? that is called sin.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

There is great mercy and grace with God. As long as you walk according to the light you have in you, the Blood of Jesus Christ will cleanse you from all sin. If you not walk in the light you have that is sin. The only recourse of action then is.....

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I have to say I find this perspective extremely troubling. It makes naturalistic ethical relativism seem like etched-in-stone moral law by comparison.

Render unto Caesar those things which belong to Caesar.
Jesus came to give life,not morality.
Morality is from the knowledge of good and evil.
There were two trees in the garden.

Now, I would consider anyone who induces a daughter to marry a rapist to have sinned, or at least committed an act of evil. I see this as sin, they do not. I every other respect, we are both devout Christians.

I think that covers what in modern times would be considered a consensual relationship.
Since women were more like possessions it would be more about recovery of damages and restoring honor.

Again Jesus came to reveal the way to eternal life,not a better temporary life.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

If a man rapes your daughter not only is that a sin, but also against the law...

Sorry. Let me clarify. In Deuteronomy, God decrees that if a man rapes my virgin daughter, the man has to marry her and pay ME 50 shekels in restitution.

I agree, if there is such a thing as sin of commission, there is also such a thing as sin of omission.

In my opinion, a Christian father who causes or allows (through commission or omission) his daughter's rapist to marry her has committed a sin or, at least, committed an act of evil.

Obviously, that same Christian father has scriptural reason to believe he has not sinned, but that he has acted according to God's Law.

Does God see that father's "well-intended," Biblically founded deed as sin?

 

[Curtis]

Sorry. Let me clarify. In Deuteronomy, God decrees that if a man rapes my virgin daughter, the man has to marry her and pay ME 50 shekels in restitution.

I agree, if there is such a thing as sin of commission, there is also such a thing as sin of omission.

In my opinion, a Christian father who causes or allows (through commission or omission) his daughter's rapist to marry her has committed a sin or, at least, committed an act of evil.

Obviously, that same Christian father has scriptural reason to believe he has not sinned, but that he has acted according to God's Law.

Does God see that father's "well-intended," Biblically founded deed as sin?

The first five Books in the Bible is known as the "law". Jesus came to deliver us from the works of law by fulfilling it for us on his cross. So you do not have cause your daughter to marry a man who has raped your daughter, in fact it was if the father, and daughter consented to such a marriage. The man would have been forced to this marriage if both father, and daughter consented. The "law" was given through Moses so to stem the flow of violence in their society at that time. It is also in Deut that if a man lie with a married, or betrothed woman they both shall be put to death. Jesus delivered us from the works of the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

The first five Books in the Bible is known as the "law". Jesus came to deliver us from the works of law by fulfilling it for us on his cross. So you do not have cause your daughter to marry a man who has raped your daughter, in fact it was if the father, and daughter consented to such a marriage. The man would have been forced to this marriage if both father, and daughter consented. The "law" was given through Moses so to stem the flow of violence in their society at that time. It is also in Deut that if a man lie with a married, or betrothed woman they both shall be put to death. Jesus delivered us from the works of the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Fair enough. But that immediately begs an additional layer of questions:

1. What about laws that Jesus actually magnified (elevating lust to the level of actual adultery).
2. What, then, is special (if anything) about the 10 Commandments? They are merely the first ten of the rough total of 613 whence the penalty for of virgin rape is given. Where's the scorecard to sort wheat from the chaff?
3. Why are so many Christians determined to condemn homosexuality and other such things proscribed in that same code of laws?

 

[Curtis]

Fair enough. But that immediately begs an additional layer of questions:

1. What about laws that Jesus actually magnified (elevating lust to the level of actual adultery).
2. What, then, is special (if anything) about the 10 Commandments? They are merely the first ten of the rough total of 613 whence the penalty for of virgin rape is given. Where's the scorecard to sort wheat from the chaff?
3. Why are so many Christians determined to condemn homosexuality and other such things proscribed in that same code of laws?

The law was given to to expose sin in man. If they were not given, man would not recognize his need for a savior. As the Apostle Paul tells us in the New Testament.....

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

The "law" was a "light" which revealed sin in man. It proved that there was no way man could obey what the law demanded. How can a man come to the knowledge that he was a sinner unless he was told to do something that he not possible do? The "law" had many many curses that if man did not do them would come upon him. It also had many many "blessings" to the man who obeyed the "law". Of course no body could keep the law, even if he just broke one of them he was guilty of breaking them all!!!

Only God (Jesus Christ) could do what God demanded of man in keeping his law. Jesus came to earth and he fulfilled the law for us, and he gives us the blessings of the law for its fulfillment!!
How we acquire this benefit is by having faith in the Son of God Jesus Christ for our salvation.

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Man does not condemn homosexuality God does.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Homosexuality is so bad in the eyes of God, because the people doing it know it is wrong, but do it anyway. God says these people are "worthy" of death, not only them who practice such behavior, but even those who "approve" of their behavior!!!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Man does not condemn homosexuality God does.

Forgive me, I am not being intentionally dense. But God's condemnation of homosexuality is established in the same text and in the same contexts as the law against murder and laws of Kosher dietary hygiene.

My understanding is that modern Christianity has arrived at a position which picks and chooses certain parts of the law under which to submit and others as no longer being in force. I don't take any particular issue with that. I agree with commandment #6 (thou shalt not kill) and don't agree with commandment #582 (death to anyone who curses their parents).

My question here is: Should I expect to be judged BY GOD for sins which I truly believe are not sins? There is no scriptural or gospel basis that I can find where I, as a father, am required to obtain my daughter's permission to have her rapist marry her. I hate to keep coming back to such an ugly example, but it seems I am entitled to do just that AND charge the groom/rapist 50 shekels.

Yet I cannot personally think of much that a father could do to his daughter that would be more evil.

I can accept the rule, "let your conscience be your guide," but then what laws, if any, can be salvaged from either the Old Testament or even the Gospels?

I understand if you think you have already sufficiently covered the matter, in which case I'll push no further and continue to ruminate on the excellent tracts you have so far offered.

With thanks and good wishes--

 

[Curtis]

Forgive me, I am not being intentionally dense. But God's condemnation of homosexuality is established in the same text and in the same contexts as the law against murder and laws of Kosher dietary hygiene.

My understanding is that modern Christianity has arrived at a position which picks and chooses certain parts of the law under which to submit and others as no longer being in force. I don't take any particular issue with that. I agree with commandment #6 (thou shalt not kill) and don't agree with commandment #582 (death to anyone who curses their parents).

My question here is: Should I expect to be judged BY GOD for sins which I truly believe are not sins? There is no scriptural or gospel basis that I can find where I, as a father, am required to obtain my daughter's permission to have her rapist marry her. I hate to keep coming back to such an ugly example, but it seems I am entitled to do just that AND charge the groom/rapist 50 shekels.

Yet I cannot personally think of much that a father could do to his daughter that would be more evil.

I can accept the rule, "let your conscience be your guide," but then what laws, if any, can be salvaged from either the Old Testament or even the Gospels?

I understand if you think you have already sufficiently covered the matter, in which case I'll push no further and continue to ruminate on the excellent tracts you have so far offered.

With thanks and good wishes--

As you already know, rape is a crime punishable under man's laws, which usually includes prison time. There is nothing that requires you to have your daughter to marry her rapist. You do know that rape is also something that both parties agree to do together. If you as a father decide it is best for your daughter to marry the guy, that's OK. If not that is OK to, but your daughter also has a say so if she wants to. No one is under bondage, but under the law of man that could be a different story. The law of God under the Old Testament was bondage to man, because he could not keep it. Under the New Testament there is only one law, and that is to "love" your neighbor

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Loving your neighbor is not something you can do own your own either, as God alone by himself is "love" for God is love. ( 1 John 4:8 ) In the life of a Christian that love dwells within us, it is not my own love, but God him self. The Lord God loves people through us, and this love has no fear of any kind, for perfect casts out fear ( 1 John 4:18) Fear brings "torment". There is no condemnation, or fear that I might have any hidden sin that I might have, because God (love) in me has cast it out. If I do wrong I know immediately, there is no guessing what if.

Christianity is about being set free, not going into any type of bondage. My only requirement is to have faith in God's Word, and if I do that God himself will cause the Word of God to produce for me.
.
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.