Christian Bakers Fined, Gagged in Gay Cake Case

[B-A-C]

Do they stand on that conviction for couples where the women is not a virgin?

I can't speak for that particular couple but some do. Yes fornication and adultery are just as much a sin as homosexuality.
But that's just it. They are all sin. Not more of a sin or less of a sin.. but sin none the less.

 

[B-A-C]

Expressing any love, even romantic love, for another human being is no sin.

Really.. so two married people having an affair isn't a sin because they love each other?
The 30 year old man seducing the 14 year old girl isn't a sin because they love each other?

This is a common problem.. confusing love and sex.
I love men. I love my sons, my father, other men in the church, some of my male friends.
But I don't sleep with them. Having sex with someone does not equal love.

Perhaps we are judging them,... but aren't you here judging us because we are judging them?

Besides there are many ways to say I love you.
Wear your helmet. Wear your seatbelt. Don't drive too fast. Make sure you eat right.
These things may not sound like love.. but they are often said because of love.
Don't be homosexual might not sound like love.... it might even sound like judging.
But if we love these people, we should warn them.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Fallen angels hated God because He used the flood to destroy all mankind save 8. This included their children whom they LOVED. They loved their children more than they loved God. Have you got a clue what that means?

Sorry, Brad. Unless you have access to scripture I haven't seen, the sin of the first fallen flight of angels was not that they wanted to be good parents to their children begot of human women. I think their rebellion ran a little deeper and aggressive than that. Secondly, let's stipulate, for your purposes, that their love for God was indeed imperfect -- imperfect it was. How does that have any bearing at all on this particular issue? The bakers are not displaying a greater love of God than other humans. Quite the contrary. God compels us to love all humans -- aside from being good in an earthly sense, compassion is a wonderful way of showing love for God. Instead, these bakers are letting their own, personal revulsion at the mere thought of homosexuality overrule their duty to Christian compassion. When they pass on and the weight of their sins is judged, do you suppose they will be eager to say, "Well, at LEAST we didn't bake that cake for that lesbian couple."?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Really.. so two married people having an affair isn't a sin because they love each other?
The 30 year old man seducing the 14 year old girl isn't a sin because they love each other?

This is a common problem.. confusing love and sex.

Sorry, B-A-C. But it is YOU who are unintentionally confusing love with lust. Two married people HAVING AN AFFAIR is adultery and a sin. The sexual seduction of any child is a sin in multiple ways and also a crime. It is also such a damaging form of abuse that it is pretty safe to say that anyone who commits sexual abuse may LUST for their victim, but certainly does not LOVE them. See the difference?

I would never confuse your love for your sons, etc., for lust. This adult lesbian couple (let's just assume for argument's sake) love each other. I can't say for sure that they lust for each other -- though it's admittedly likely. But neither are they married to any man. We don't know (and I don't care) whether they commit the sin of gay sex. They wanted to buy a cake from people who probably sell cakes to just about everybody else, ALL of whom commit Biblically abominable sins of one sort or another. But the bakers SINGLED OUT this loving couple for persecution out of their SUSPICION that the couple INTENDED, to commit the sin of gay sex, or were guilty of the sin of lust (which is always a sine no matter who you are).

This is an elegant and absolutely compelling illustration of Jesus's ministry against hypocrisy.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Perhaps we are judging them,... but aren't you here judging us?

By the way, if you want to consider my reminding you of certain foundational Christian principles, and identifying unfortunate cases in which those principles are being distorted, as "judging" you, I can't stop you. But I WOULD still sell you a cake.

 

[Brad Huber]

They are attempting to make their love of God greater than their love of humans. You find fault with this because you do not understand the nature of love. You never shall until God Himself tells you different. You respect no view other than that you already have set it stone.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

But I WOULD still sell you a cake.

@Kirby D. P.
Are you a baker or a sales assistant?
Somehow I remember that a disciple of Christ must obey Him and as one of faith, it is vital that one listens to the Spirit and walks accordingly.
Unless you have direct and judged prophecy regarding selling someone a cake, it is best that you don't boast of tomorrow.
We have to obey each moment so my advice to you is to wait until the member you are writing to is before you asking to buy a cake from you and then, only then, follow the LORD's leading.

The world has messed up in that any person has the right to either sell or not sell to whoever they want for whatever reason they want, but that is the world's problem, and has nothing to do with the Gospel.
If anything, those offended have a wonderful opportunity to forgive if they know how to.

It's quite sickening that men bicker about a cake on one continent while on another children die from starvation and sickness due to malnutrition.
Sickening and shameful also that so much time and energy and expense has been flushed down the well watered toilets of so many over consumer item, but that is the world.

I know that if someone refused me something I would accept it and move on and in regards to cakes, there are probably plenty of places to get them if that's what you're into!

All have sinned and there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(That name is Jesus Christ)

Better to break bread than have a cake fight!

Bless you ....><>

 

[RJ]

Yes, Jesus did not come to undo the law

True, but more accurately, he came to fulfill the law! The question should be how?
Jesus is the embodiment of the law and he fulfills it in and through us, not that we can ever fulfill the law, but he can inside us and through us.
If you take the stance that the Baker has rights, and especially if he is Christian, he has a right to his religious convictions and the right to refuse anyone. If you can legally refuse to serve some one because they do not have shoes or a shirt, certainly you have the right to make decisions based on you religious conviction. The Scotus took it on themselves to take something that God defined and redefine it to suite their political desires.
If you want to include Jesus fulfilling the law in the discussion of Gay rights, then pay heed to what he said: " Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give unto God what belongs to God!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again everyone,

How about we praise the LORD

For His mercy endureth for ever and ever!

Jesus is Lord
praise Him!

Bless you ....><>

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I know that if someone refused me something I would accept it and move on and in regards to cakes, there are probably plenty of places to get them if that's what you're into!

I wouldn't want to buy a cake from someone who doesn't like me,i mean they are alone with that cake.
While we are on the subject I would like to remind everyone to tip well and not just because they will be alone with your food.

 

[Br. Bear]

While we are on the subject I would like to remind everyone to tip well and not just because they will be alone with your food.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

They are attempting to make their love of God greater than their love of humans. You find fault with this because you do not understand the nature of love. You never shall until God Himself tells you different. You respect no view other than that you already have set it stone.

How, exactly, does my insistence that I would sell the lesbians a wedding cake AND ALSO sell the bakers a wedding cake, even though they needlessly find the lesbians' relationship disgusting, show that I know so little about love? They can find no scripture to justify their persecution of female couples who want to buy a wedding cake and I have no scriptural basis for penalizing them for disparaging homosexuality. But I DO have scriptural basis to see their persecution of the lesbian couple as unChristian. You'll note that nowhere have I said that the bakers SHOULD be gagged or fined over $100,000. I am simply describing them and people who support their position as hypocrites. Also, I think you'll see I have kept my own aversion to gay sex, homosexual romantic love, or the sins of lust or adultery out of my analysis. Furthermore, I'd never presume to tell you what you do and do not know about love without first hearing your own opinions of it. I am not here professing or judging the validity of anyone's love. I don't doubt the Christian bakers love God. But they cannot defend their persecution of the lesbian couple as a way of demonstrating that love. It's a non sequitur.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Greetings,



@Kirby D. P.
Are you a baker or a sales assistant?
Somehow I remember that a disciple of Christ must obey Him and as one of faith, it is vital that one listens to the Spirit and walks accordingly.
Unless you have direct and judged prophecy regarding selling someone a cake, it is best that you don't boast of tomorrow.
We have to obey each moment so my advice to you is to wait until the member you are writing to is before you asking to buy a cake from you and then, only then, follow the LORD's leading.

The world has messed up in that any person has the right to either sell or not sell to whoever they want for whatever reason they want, but that is the world's problem, and has nothing to do with the Gospel.
If anything, those offended have a wonderful opportunity to forgive if they know how to.

It's quite sickening that men bicker about a cake on one continent while on another children die from starvation and sickness due to malnutrition.
Sickening and shameful also that so much time and energy and expense has been flushed down the well watered toilets of so many over consumer item, but that is the world.

I know that if someone refused me something I would accept it and move on and in regards to cakes, there are probably plenty of places to get them if that's what you're into!

All have sinned and there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(That name is Jesus Christ)

Better to break bread than have a cake fight!

Bless you ....><>

And bless you, Br. Bear. You are absolutely right on several scores. For the record, I'll restate my policy: in principle, I'll sell you a cake even if you are a homosexual or a nonviolent homophobe. But I'll stop short of making this an absolute rule in allowance of certain unforeseeable circumstances.

HOWEVER, while 'tis true cake is a relatively innocuous trade, at the other absurd end of the spectrum are things like medical care, police protection, access to vital public services. Most everything else falls somewhere in the vast middle. And while selective provision of these services is subject to certain political or legal debate, it's virtually impossible to identify the defining point when prejudicially withholding a service is "more" Christian than providing that service without prejudice. This is because there IS no Christian point at which a service becomes so inconsequential as to render making a point of witholding it admirable.
Many Christian charities provide food and medical aid to the poor of Somalia. Most of the recipients of this largesse are Muslims, many of whom come from families who have waged war against Christians. The charity they recieve is very Christian in nature. How does one reconcile the magnificence of that charitable expression of Christianity with the petty refusal to sell a cake to a pair of women who, for all we know, donate freely to that charity in Africa.

It is safe to assume God sorrows over any sinning sex the lesbian couple engage in. It is safe to assume He rejoices in Christians providing succor to the children of their own enemies in Africa. Is it likely that he smiles when a baker says, "You're gay, so no cake for you. Go away."?

 

[RJ]

Greetings again everyone,

How about we praise the LORD

For His mercy endureth for ever and ever!

Jesus is Lord
praise Him!

Bless you ....><>

Every day!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,
@Kirby D. P.

Sin is sin no matter who.
I understand what you are saying

And bless you, Br. Bear. You are absolutely right on several scores. For the record, I'll restate my policy: in principle, I'll sell you a cake even if you are a homosexual or a nonviolent homophobe. But I'll stop short of making this an absolute rule in allowance of certain unforeseeable circumstances.

HOWEVER, while 'tis true cake is a relatively innocuous trade, at the other absurd end of the spectrum are things like medical care, police protection, access to vital public services. Most everything else falls somewhere in the vast middle. And while selective provision of these services is subject to certain political or legal debate, it's virtually impossible to identify the defining point when prejudicially withholding a service is "more" Christian than providing that service without prejudice. This is because there IS no Christian point at which a service becomes so inconsequential as to render making a point of witholding it admirable.
Many Christian charities provide food and medical aid to the poor of Somalia. Most of the recipients of this largesse are Muslims, many of whom come from families who have waged war against Christians. The charity they recieve is very Christian in nature. How does one reconcile the magnificence of that charitable expression of Christianity with the petty refusal to sell a cake to a pair of women who, for all we know, donate freely to that charity in Africa.

It is safe to assume God sorrows over any sinning sex the lesbian couple engage in. It is safe to assume He rejoices in Christians providing succor to the children of their own enemies in Africa. Is it likely that he smiles when a baker says, "You're gay, so no cake for you. Go away."?

And I am not wanting to engage in a dialogue about these people for I can see error on both sides but unless they ask me or join TalkJesus and post here I am unlikely to engage in discussion with any of them (and perhaps we should all remember this?)

However,

Persecution?

Please keep it factual.

Perhaps a quick reminder of what that really means :

Thank you for your reply.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Kirby D. P.]

True, but more accurately, he came to fulfill the law! The question should be how?
Jesus is the embodiment of the law and he fulfills it in and through us, not that we can ever fulfill the law, but he can inside us and through us.
If you take the stance that the Baker has rights, and especially if he is Christian, he has a right to his religious convictions and the right to refuse anyone. If you can legally refuse to serve some one because they do not have shoes or a shirt, certainly you have the right to make decisions based on you religious conviction. The Scotus took it on themselves to take something that God defined and redefine it to suite their political desires.
If you want to include Jesus fulfilling the law in the discussion of Gay rights, then pay heed to what he said: " Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give unto God what belongs to God!

Giving to Caesar that which is Caesar's is precisely my point. It is not for the bakers to execute any part of God's justice. No shoes, no shirt, no service is a non-prejudicial policy. But refusing service to blacks, Jews and Irish is. The laws of the land are wordly and inconsequential in Heaven. So what Christian good did the bakers think they were performing? They were not abiding any particular scripture. You can't find a quote from them that, "Gosh, we really, REALLY would have loved to sell the lesbians a cake, honest. But God says we can't." The bakers find homosexuality offensive. That gay sex is sinful simply provides an excuse for them to give manifest vent to their bigotry.

 

[Br. Bear]

Oh and I forgot to mention,

Let us PRAISE THE LORD!

AND THANK HIM FOR HIS MERCY AND GRACE!

Bless you all ....><>

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Greetings,
@Kirby D. P.

Sin is sin no matter who.
I understand what you are saying


And I am not wanting to engage in a dialogue about these people for I can see error on both sides but unless they ask me or join TalkJesus and post here I am unlikely to engage in discussion with any of them (and perhaps we should all remember this?)

However,

Persecution?

Please keep it factual.

Perhaps a quick reminder of what that really means :

Thank you for your reply.

Bless you ....><>

Preferentially witholding services in a civil society is indeed persecution. The horrors that have been visited upon Christians for being Christian in now way diminishes that.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Giving to Caesar that which is Caesar's is precisely my point. It is not for the bakers to execute any part of God's justice. No shoes, no shirt, no service is a non-prejudicial policy.

Then could they refuse to put buttless chap's on the little grooms?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

depends on how thick they lay on the fondant, I guess.