Christian identifying as jesus/god himself

[Rhema]

i think there are verses which in their holy book very much contradict the principles of christianity,

It's somewhat obvious to me that there are verses in the Hebrew Bible that very much contradicts Judaism itself.

The passage from Jeremiah 7:22 caused me to do a deep dive into the accounts of all animal sacrifices, and once translation issues are resolved, the Hebrew Bible repudiates every such instance, Abel, Noah, Abraham, even Moses. Jesus preached that the Father forgives sin, not that the Father is paid for sin by an animal sacrifice.

i spoke to an atheist which insisted that christians must follow the law of moses,

We can discuss this further if you wish, but Yes, this is true, even by Jesus' teaching (cf. Mat 23:1-3 below). The problem is that what is claimed to be the law of Moses isn't the initial law of Moses. Again, Jeremiah 8:8 proves that even back then the law was altered by the scribes into a lie - that nobody had the law of Moses, which is why God had to keep sending the prophets - to correct their beliefs, but the priests would not have it, even to the point of killing the Son.

Blessings,
Rhema

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

- Matthew 23:1-3 KJV

But Gentiles have no clue what "Moses' seat" is, or what it means.

 

[Rhema]

...but its already dealt with...

Sorry, ... I missed this.

By "it" do you mean the law? And by "dealt with", do you mean "dispensed with"? Perhaps that's so with Pauline Christians, but I'm an Acts 2:38 "Xhristian," and a follower of the teachings of Jesus -

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to FIX. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all MAY COME INTO A NEW STATE OF BEING. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

- Matthew 5:17-19

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[zeth4500]

By "it" do you mean the law? And by "dealt with", do you mean "dispensed with"? Perhaps that's so with Pauline Christians, but I'm an Acts 2:38 "Xhristian," and a follower of the teachings of Jesus -

mmm yes- when jesus came and died on the cross he purified the christians so they didnt have to follow the law of moses - well, largely speaking. the 10 commandments, some of those we still follow such as respecting parents, but jesus was very much against sabbath for instance
as for the sacrifices i was going through judges and was calmed when i found out its old testament which explains prophetesses, animal sacrifices and godly men that killed thousands of people and god also commanding for people to kill many thousands of other people - which is not quite what the new testament preaches, quite opposite.
as i understand it, the law of moses was just to prepare people to become christians and abide strict laws, and the crucifiction of jesus then released christians of these excessively strict laws
i believe theres also a part in the bible where its declared that following the law of moses is a sin

John 7:53-8:11

 

[Rhema]

as for the sacrifices i was going through judges and was calmed when i found out its old testament which explains prophetesses, animal sacrifices ...

This too is "Old Testament":

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

- Jeremiah 7:22 NRSVA

When one takes a closer look in Exodus 18, Moses did not offer burnt sacrifices, but his father-in-law (a priest of Midian - not YHWH) did. I don't deny the existence of Exodus 20:24, but either Moses didn't write these, or he added in what his father-in-law taught him. They did not come from God.

when jesus came and died on the cross he purified the christians so they didnt have to follow the law of moses

Jesus never said that. Other people did. Other people said that about Jesus.

Jesus' death did not nullify Jesus' teachings. Rather, it proved that Jesus was right.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.​

- Acts 2:22, 32-33 NKJV

And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine ...​

- Acts 2:42 NKJV

jesus was very much against sabbath for instance

I can't agree with that.

For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."​

- Matthew 12:8 NKJV

The text doesn't say that the Sabbath is anathema, but that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."​

- Mark 2:27-28 NKJV

This says nothing against the Sabbath, but rather that the real purpose of the Sabbath had been perverted by the Jewish religious leaders. There is a reason that the Sabbath was made for man, and it would be unwise to reject that purpose, but you have the option. That said, when one rejects the Sabbath, one doesn't receive the blessings of the Sabbath.

as i understand it, the law of moses was just to prepare people to become christians

Again, Jesus never said this. Some people think some guy named Paul did. As a follower of Jesus, I don't follow Paul.

jesus then released christians of these excessively strict laws

Yet even Paul disagreed with this view:

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.​

- Romans 3:31 NKJV

The Law was not made void or nullified ('released from'), but rather "We establish the Law."

Now I find the word "establish" (G2476 ἵστημι histēmi) might not be the best English word to use, so I provide:

LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G2476 ἵστημι

A. make to stand​

III 5. = Lat. statuere (statuimus) determine​

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was to 'establish' the Law within our hearts - the true Law as Jesus taught, the original Law that had been given by the Father to Moses; the Law that the prophet Jeremiah pointed out was corrupted even at his time:

How can you say, "We are wise, and the Law (TORAH) of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

- Jeremiah 8:8 NRSVA

i believe theres also a part in the bible where its declared that following the law of moses is a sin

John 7:53-8:11

Setting aside the fact that this passage is not found at all in oldest copies of the Gospel named John, but added in later, likely by a Catholic Bishop, if Jesus commanded the woman to sin no more, how would she know what sin was if not for the Law?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.​

- John 8:11 KJV

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

- 1 John 3:4 KJV

Now I would suggest that the Law may be seen as having two parts.

1) the transgression​

2) the punishment​

While Jesus may have extended mercy, not imposing the punishment (condemnation) he most certainly did not nullify (make void) the transgression. Now can we find the transgressions by searching through the teachings of Moses? No. Only that which Jesus taught composes the Law.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[zeth4500]

This too is "Old Testament":

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

- Jeremiah 7:22 NRSVA

When one takes a closer look in Exodus 18, Moses did not offer burnt sacrifices, but his father-in-law (a priest of Midian - not YHWH) did. I don't deny the existence of Exodus 20:24, but either Moses didn't write these, or he added in what his father-in-law taught him. They did not come from God.


Jesus never said that. Other people did. Other people said that about Jesus.

Jesus' death did not nullify Jesus' teachings. Rather, it proved that Jesus was right.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.​

- Acts 2:22, 32-33 NKJV

And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine ...​

- Acts 2:42 NKJV


I can't agree with that.

For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."​

- Matthew 12:8 NKJV

The text doesn't say that the Sabbath is anathema, but that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."​

- Mark 2:27-28 NKJV

This says nothing against the Sabbath, but rather that the real purpose of the Sabbath had been perverted by the Jewish religious leaders. There is a reason that the Sabbath was made for man, and it would be unwise to reject that purpose, but you have the option. That said, when one rejects the Sabbath, one doesn't receive the blessings of the Sabbath.


Again, Jesus never said this. Some people think some guy named Paul did. As a follower of Jesus, I don't follow Paul.


Yet even Paul disagreed with this view:

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.​

- Romans 3:31 NKJV

The Law was not made void or nullified ('released from'), but rather "We establish the Law."

Now I find the word "establish" (G2476 ἵστημι histēmi) might not be the best English word to use, so I provide:

LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G2476 ἵστημι

A. make to stand​

III 5. = Lat. statuere (statuimus) determine​

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was to 'establish' the Law within our hearts - the true Law as Jesus taught, the original Law that had been given by the Father to Moses; the Law that the prophet Jeremiah pointed out was corrupted even at his time:

How can you say, "We are wise, and the Law (TORAH) of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

- Jeremiah 8:8 NRSVA


Setting aside the fact that this passage is not found at all in oldest copies of the Gospel named John, but added in later, likely by a Catholic Bishop, if Jesus commanded the woman to sin no more, how would she know what sin was if not for the Law?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.​

- John 8:11 KJV

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

- 1 John 3:4 KJV

Now I would suggest that the Law may be seen as having two parts.

1) the transgression​

2) the punishment​

While Jesus may have extended mercy, not imposing the punishment (condemnation) he most certainly did not nullify (make void) the transgression. Now can we find the transgressions by searching through the teachings of Moses? No. Only that which Jesus taught composes the Law.

Kindly,
Rhema

ahhh i understand, the punishments- yes i guess you could call it miscommunication, yes i understand that the uhh- law of death was abandoned as it wasnt christ-like, although all sins will eventually lead to death if not dealt with

in my first year as christian the one part about "shall be put to death" - having come across an amount of people found guilty in.. laying with a beast, i wasnt quite sure how i should deal with it as a christian since being the one to put someone to death is not what christianity represents to me, so there is a bit conflict if one doesnt navigate which is old and new testament, but virtually all counts as sin still yes, but the new testaments writings is what counts higher than the old testament in case there is contradictory teaching

 

[Rxlx]

Jim Jones claimed to be Jesus.
I was thinking Marshall Applewhite also claimed to be Jesus but I was mistaken but reading up on him I read the group purchased alien abduction insurance that would cover up to fifty members and would pay out $1 million per person (the policy covered abduction, impregnation, or death by aliens).
If that insurance company is still in business it must be making a fortune!

 

[Rhema]

yes i understand that the uhh- law of death was abandoned as it wasnt christ-like

Somewhat depends upon what one thinks to be "Christ-like."

The standard Christian position was that Jesus was "Christ-like" so you wouldn't have to be.

I just find that bizarre. The Holy Spirit is granted so that each one being so anointed (i.e. "messiah-ed") could follow the TORAH. But since the Torah was corrupted (Jer. 8:8) then following the Holy Spirit is the only way that one could follow the Law as it was initial intended.

In this manner, a believer could argue that he or she is Christ (meaning anointed; and more specifically anointed with the Holy Spirit), but no sane believer would claim to be Jesus. Again, Christ is the Greek word for Messiah, and Messiah just means an anointed one. (David was Messiah, John the Baptizer was Messiah.) Anyone truly baptized with the Holy Spirit has been anointed. And it's the guidance of the Holy Spirit that is to be followed (in accordance with the teachings of Jesus) rather than anything one might figure out from reading scripture (any scriptures) by using their brain.

the new testaments writings is what counts higher than the old testament in case there is contradictory teaching

I can agree with this to some extent, but rather the "Teachings of Jesus," not the "New Testament Writings." The Teachings of Jesus "counts higher" than the OT, or even certain passages of the NT. The book of Revelation was rejected as canon until the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (A.D. 393).

Most Christians, having no understanding of Judaism or Rabbinical Judaism, and most Christians relying upon a Greek text of Matthew, instead of the initial Hebrew manuscript, get lost very easily when trying to understand what Jesus meant with regards to the Law.

With Paul, as his writings are tailored for a Greek / Roman audience, somewhere along the line, he declared that the TORAH itself was a curse, and the entirety of the Law could be dispensed with. Unfortunately, Romans is not well written, and it can easily give the wrong impression. As an example, the Law is to be fulfilled (established) in / by us:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

(Romans 8:1-4 KJV)

Oft times when Paul says "flesh" he means Judaism (those who place their faith in the circumcision of their flesh). In a more expanded view, one might understand "flesh" to mean "will power," since that was the tool leaned upon by Judaism for an individual to "do" the law.

One is to OBEY the Law, and Paul felt (at some point) that no human could do this when first, using his brain to understand what the Law meant, and second, to apply the vehicle of "will power" to effect (bring about) its righteousness.

And I can agree with that part (again to some extent). Humans try to use their will power over and over to be righteous in accordance with the rules that their religion teaches. There's no life in the Spirit, but only death in the System (any System) where one's soul is brainwashed into blind obedience to the set of rules and regulations. Opus Dei comes to mind. To be honest, any cult or religion comes to mind where a person suffers tremendous abuse in order to be broken for the purpose of implementing obedience their rules (their "Torah").

I hope this helps to clarify things a bit.

Kind regards,
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.