Christianity is dying a slow death in USA & Europe

[PloughBoy]

 

[Reba1]

Christ is building His Church He is the chief corner stone . Our Lord God does not fail. Persecutions over the years have built His Church and will continue do so.
I heard an old, old story
How a Savior came from glory
How He gave His life on Calvary
To save a wretch like me
I heard about His groaning
Of His precious blood's atoning
Then I repented of my sins
And won the victory

O victory in Jesus
My Savior, forever
He sought me and bought me
With His redeeming blood
He loved me ere I knew Him
And all my love is due Him
He plunged me to victory
Beneath the cleansing flood

I heard about His healing
Of His cleansing pow'r revealing
How He made the lame to walk again
And caused the blind to see
And then I cried, "Dear Jesus
Come and heal my broken spirit,"
And somehow Jesus came and brought
To me the victory

 

[B-A-C]

On the other hand... in the last days.

Rev 13:6; And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[Reba1]

Num 13:25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days.
Num 13:26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land.
Num 13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
Num 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
Num 13:32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

 

[Andyindauk]

I know that for many people what I'm about to say is going to cause some distress but please be assured that that's not my intention and I apologise if you are upset by what I've written.

I watched this video and I found it really quite depressing. It highlights a problem and rather than come up with anything positive, it justifies and seeks to perpetuate the problem. I'm only talking about the church in the UK, I have no experience of churches in other countries but if you're from outside the UK you may well find some resonances with your church.

IMO the systemic problem with the church is that it is largely run by old people for old people, there is nowhere near enough outreach, indeed barriers are more important than radiating the love of God and the gospel. The most intractable barrier is that of the prejudice that was prevalent in the 1950s - 70s, and the church is hanging onto and treasuring them and using them to justify looking down upon outsiders with a sanctimonious and pious disdain. I'm not talking here about race, that's a whole different issue altogether and also needs addressing as to why most traditional church congregations are 98% + white, but that's for another day. No, I'm talking about using God's word, the Holy Bible, to justify homophobia.

Before you go off on one at me, please let me clarify. There is nowhere in the Bible that gives even an amber light to gay sex; even gay clergy cannot find a verse that they can misquote or take out of context to do so - there just isn't. Gay sex in God's eyes is a definite no no. Now for me, pretty much all of God's laws I can fully and gladly sign up to (though implementation can be a bit patchy ) but this one, I do struggle to see the logic of. BTW I'm straight, not gay. To me, saying to someone that your whole ethos and sexuality is contrary to God, it's a struggle for me to buy into. However having said that I do buy into it, because in faith I believe that when I do eventually go upstairs and this is all explained to me, I'll have a light bulb moment and I'll be saying, 'oh yeah, I never thought of it like that.'

Back to topic. I hear all too often Christians parading their prejudice and using the Bible to justify it and claiming persecution when they disobey equality laws. I'm thinking as I'm listening to this doctor that refuses to address this transgender woman as she, I'm asking myself, where is the love? Read the account of the woman at the well in John 4. Jesus did not offer her instruction on her lifestyle, instead he offered her a personal relationship with God:
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” I like to think that she took Jesus up on that offer and from love and obedience to Jesus, turned her rather colourful life around. She certainly wasn't shy about witnessing her encounter with Jesus with her fellow villagers.

Another example is the woman caught in adultery. Jesus's advice to her was not to break it off with her boyfriend, rather, it was go and sin no more.

Note that all the exhortations to avoid sexual immorality are targeted specifically at believers seeking to follow the will of God. With one exception there's no other verses in the New Testament directed to non-believers, demanding that they follow God's code of conduct or live a more ethical lifestyle. That exception wasJohn 14:3-4, John criticises Herod. No, gospels nor epistles, there's no codes of conduct, no lists of do's and don'ts instructing non-believers how to conduct themselves in the Bible: there is in the Quran, but not the Bible.
The relevant verse is -
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. Colossians 3:1‭-‬7 NKJV

The Bible is clear that we show love to everyone, Jesus tells us we should even love our enemies, the parable of the good Samaritan refers. Treating sections of people badly because we disapprove of their lifestyle is the same sin as that of the priest and the Levite in the parable. The Apostle Paul was quite clear about our message to the world -
but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. I Corinthians 1:23‭-‬25 NKJV

50 years ago discrimination was socially accepted and so churches blended in nicely, I don't remember this even being discussed when I was growing up. Since then, the mainstream has moved on and now discrimination is frowned upon, especially by the young. The church should be leading, not hanging onto rather ugly heirlooms. I feel very strongly that the Church should reach out and radiate God's love to minorities and more importantly, the young. We have to tell them the good news of the Gospel and rescue them from the clutches of our real enemy, Satan.

If the whole church in the UK we're more outward looking, it would grow organically, if it really reached out with that Gospel message and raised the drawbridge, that growth would be exponential! Currently there are many Evangelical churches in the UK that are growing but sadly the guy in the video is right, they're in the minority,

 

[B-A-C]

If the whole church in the UK we're more outward looking, it would grow organically, if it really reached out with that Gospel message and raised the drawbridge, that growth would be exponential! Currently there are many Evangelical churches in the UK that are growing but sadly the guy in the video is right, they're in the minority,

I don't live in the UK, but it's a similar situation here. I believe God wants the whole world to be saved. But I believe He would rather have a small Holy and pure church than a large worldly church.
The Bible says at the end of the age, Jesus ( His angels ) will remove the bad fish, remove the tares, cut down the fruitless trees (out of His kingdom).
The church shouldn't be letting the world influence us. We should be influencing them.

There are some popular signs in the yards of a lot of Liberals in this part of the US. It says "In my America ... Love wins!".
Now on the surface it means we are supposed to love all people. But what it really means is that we accept everything they do. That is not love.
What they are saying here is we also have to love abortions, homosexuality, transgenderism, fornication, etc... Not just love the people, but love what they are doing.
How does this show love for those murdered babies? How does this show love for Jesus? They are also selective about what to love or not love.

Christianity is not a tolerant religion. God is not a tolerant God.

Treating sections of people badly because we disapprove of their lifestyle is the same sin as that of the priest and the Levite in the parable.

That isn't really correct. Define "treating...badly". No we shouldn't hate them. But we shouldn't treat them like their sin doesn't matter.

1Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1Cor 5:10; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

If the church isn't preaching repentance, then why bother preaching at all?

 

[Reba1]

Calling out sex sin is no different then calling out murder stealing lying etc.
.. Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
No where in Scripture do we find Jesus saying anything close to live how ever you wish my love is accepting of your sin... He says repent .

 

[Hekuran]

I mostly agree with Andy's point on the church and homophobia.

A broader point is that the church's main role is not to be the conscience of a lost world, but to be a witness to it. The rest of the community should see in our words and actions Jesus Christ himself. While everybody else is thinking about self-preservation, advancing themselves, accumulating security, wealth and positive experiences ... the church is to do the things Jesus did, such as care for the widow and orphan, heal the brokenhearted, to bring those who are rejected to the centre of a caring, compassionate family.

I firmly believe that the reason the world largely rejects the church is because we don't resemble Jesus nearly enough. We proclaim grace, but we act to preserve ourselves and our institutions just like everybody else.

 

[Downunder]

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

 

[Downunder]

on spiritual warfare
2Cor 4:2 but we have renounced the hidden things of the shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men in God’s sight.
4:3 And if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in the perishing:
4:4 in whom the god of this age, hath blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, that the enlightenment of the gospel of the glory of the Christ, who is God’s image, should not dawn upon them.
4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bondmen for Jesus’ sake.
4:6 Because it is God that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, unto enlightenment of the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ’s face.

 

[Andyindauk]

That isn't really correct. Define "treating...badly". No we shouldn't hate them. But we shouldn't treat them like their sin doesn't matter.

1Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1Cor 5:10; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

If the church isn't preaching repentance, then why bother preaching at all?

One example of treating badly is this doctor in the video refusing to call his patient 'she'. If a guy wants to put on a dress and change his name to Shirley, that isn't going to stop him getting into Heaven. No, if he hasn't accepted Jesus as Lord in his life, that's where his problem lies. If instead the doctor were to treat her with love and respect, she may be more sympathetic and open to his beliefs. Instead he's off to the tribunal claiming religious persecution. Religious bigotry is a more likely outcome. Yes she's in breach of Deuteronomy 22:5 but doubtless she's guilty of many more sins, but to many this one sin seems to be bigger than the cross and God's forgiveness. To God, sin is sin, is sin. There's no shades of grey, just filthy black. She needs to repent and she needs forgiveness but that's unlikely if the Christians she encounters treat her as a freak. Remember, God loves her and sent His son to die for her.

Other recent examples, bakers refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple and a b&b turning a gay couple away.

Let me be clear, I'm not promoting compromise within the church, I'm distinguishing between the message to the world Matthew 28:18-20, and the message to the beiever Philippians 2:12 and the many messages to the churches, not least, Revelation 2:12-16 and Revelation 2:18-23.

It should be noted that the issue of homosexuality did not crop up once during Jesus's ministry, it may have done but none of the Gospel writers record it. One explanation is that Jesus came to live as an example of a life without sin and to preach repentance to God's chosen people who had turned their back on Him, and then to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Can I re-emphasise, He came to preach repentance to a people who'd turned their back on Him. Much like today.

The epistles were written to believing churches, some who either had or were likely to slip off the rails.

But BAC, let me agree with you on this point, 'If the church isn't preaching repentance, then why bother preaching at all?' I'm assuming we're talking about all sin, and not just gay sin. But we need to finish it off by telling straight and gay, the wages of sin is death BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE- and it's even better than that because that eternal life starts now!!

 

[Gregoryp]

Oh yes! And Australia, and when I try and warn people of their paganism, their love of prosperity theology which is false , I am banned from their group. They simply dont want to be told the truth, and prefer to have there ears and eyes tickled instead.

 

[Gregoryp]

One example of treating badly is this doctor in the video refusing to call his patient 'she'. If a guy wants to put on a dress and change his name to Shirley, that isn't going to stop him getting into Heaven. No, if he hasn't accepted Jesus as Lord in his life, that's where his problem lies. If instead the doctor were to treat her with love and respect, she may be more sympathetic and open to his beliefs. Instead he's off to the tribunal claiming religious persecution. Religious bigotry is a more likely outcome. Yes she's in breach of Deuteronomy 22:5 but doubtless she's guilty of many more sins, but to many this one sin seems to be bigger than the cross and God's forgiveness. To God, sin is sin, is sin. There's no shades of grey, just filthy black. She needs to repent and she needs forgiveness but that's unlikely if the Christians she encounters treat her as a freak. Remember, God loves her and sent His son to die for her.

Other recent examples, bakers refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple and a b&b turning a gay couple away.

Let me be clear, I'm not promoting compromise within the church, I'm distinguishing between the message to the world Matthew 28:18-20, and the message to the beiever Philippians 2:12 and the many messages to the churches, not least, Revelation 2:12-16 and Revelation 2:18-23.

It should be noted that the issue of homosexuality did not crop up once during Jesus's ministry, it may have done but none of the Gospel writers record it. One explanation is that Jesus came to live as an example of a life without sin and to preach repentance to God's chosen people who had turned their back on Him, and then to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Can I re-emphasise, He came to preach repentance to a people who'd turned their back on Him. Much like today.

The epistles were written to believing churches, some who either had or were likely to slip off the rails.

But BAC, let me agree with you on this point, 'If the church isn't preaching repentance, then why bother preaching at all?' I'm assuming we're talking about all sin, and not just gay sin. But we need to finish it off by telling straight and gay, the wages of sin is death BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE- and it's even better than that because that eternal life starts now!!

The problem with your argument is, if we accept these people as customers, or as guests in our household, we are by default condoning there behavior. They need to repent then we can sell them a cake, or welcome them into our household.

 

[Downunder]

One example of treating badly is this doctor in the video refusing to call his patient 'she'. If a guy wants to put on a dress and change his name to Shirley, that isn't going to stop him getting into Heaven. No, if he hasn't accepted Jesus as Lord in his life, that's where his problem lies. If instead the doctor were to treat her with love and respect, she may be more sympathetic and open to his beliefs.

Good point there Andy
I remember complaining to a brother in the Lord about my daughter's "immoral" lifestyle and how I wished she would marry her partner in sin.
This brother replied - it does not matter what her sins are as she does not have a personal relationship of faith and obedience to the God of salvation. She is in the world. It would be far better to get her to repent and get Spirit-filled and then the Lord will help make her moral.
Also I had forgotten that I too was cleansed from my former sins before I was Spirit-filled. Getting self righteous in my old age. Not good.

 

[Reba1]

And the pedophile needs to be treated with the same respect.

 

[Hekuran]

The problem with your argument is, if we accept these people as customers, or as guests in our household, we are by default condoning there behavior. They need to repent then we can sell them a cake, or welcome them into our household.

That's not how Jesus went about his ministry. He scandalized the crowd by eating with sinners and tax collectors such as zaccheus.

The Pharisees took a very dim view of his behaviour.

 

[Hekuran]

And the pedophile needs to be treated with the same respect.

Yes. There's not many Christian communities that can offer a safe and gracious welcome to sex offenders. But it is possible, and some do manage it.

 

[Downunder]

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

We must give opportunity for peoples to hear and to repent.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

the Lord offers forgiveness...

do we?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Downunder]

do we?

rats so many demands on being good - no wonder Calvin has a hard time.