Christians and the Tribulation

[KingJ]

If I recall correctly, you believe history to be separated into distinct church "dispensations" that follow one after the other.

BUT, Rev 2:10 is within the letter to the Church in Smyrna. Then follows Pergamos; Thyatira; Sardis; and Philadelphia before one even gets to Laodicea. If you place your "end-times John Believers" after Laodicea, an instruction to those in Smyrna can hardly apply.

So I'm sure you can see why many are confused here.

Rhema

Until you answer post # 263, consider yourself on ignore with me. Right now I feel that talking to air would be more fruitful then entertaining you.

 

[KingJ]

What does this show?

After talking to @Rhema I am not sure if you are trolling.

I will entertain you for the moment.

Vs 15 is the antichrist in the holy place. When he reveals himself, trouble starts. That is '''when''' you must not go back to your house.

Now @Rhema does make a statement about the abomination of desolation not being the antichrist. On face value, yes, the words have a different meaning, but after a study of multiple uses of the words and context, it is clear that vs 15 is speaking to the antichrist. But imagine me trying to explain that to someone like @Rhema who turns what should be a friendly chat into something heated.

 

[Butch5]

After talking to @Rhema I am not sure if you are trolling.

I will entertain you for the moment.

Vs 15 is the antichrist in the holy place. When he reveals himself, trouble starts. That is '''when''' you must not go back to your house.

Now @Rhema does make a statement about the abomination of desolation not being the antichrist. On face value, yes, the words have a different meaning, but after a study of multiple uses of the words and context, it is clear that vs 15 is speaking to the antichrist. But imagine me trying to explain that to someone like @Rhema who turns what should be a friendly chat into something heated.

But my question is how does what you posted show a time period? You disagreed that the Antichrist appears in the middle of the Tribulation. I don't how what you posted refutes that.

 

[Rhema]

Until you answer post # 263, consider yourself on ignore with me. Right now I feel that talking to air would be more fruitful then entertaining you.

Consider it done.



(But I'll still comment on your nonsense when the Spirit so leads.)

 

[KingJ]

But my question is how does what you posted show a time period? You disagreed that the Antichrist appears in the middle of the Tribulation. I don't how what you posted refutes that.

Jesus says:

1. Great tribulation worst period in human history
2. When the antichrist reveals himself, don't go back to your house

A logical person will interpret this as Jesus stating that the antichrist reveals himself on day 1 of the tribulation.

To believe the antichrist reveals himself mid trib is illogical. Mid trib is when the seventh seal is opened and the seven trumpets sound. How can the devil 'have his way' when God is 'having His way'.

You have to see the tribulation for what it is. It is a filtering process for all mankind with special attention to the Jews. It is logical that the you have 3.5 years of the antichrist doing his thing and then God, seeing the inhabitants of the earth are wicked, most righteous dead, starts dropping the worst plagues ever seen on the earth.

You need to evolve your thinking a bit beyond a literal reading of cherry picked scripture. Sit back and try rationalize all scripture on the topic.

It is not the end of the world to believe a mid trib rapture or mid trib antichrist revealing himself. I used to believe that. That was until I grasped the significance of Rev 2:10.

 

[KingJ]

(But I'll still comment on your nonsense when the Spirit so leads.)

This is a discussion form not a comment forum. Go to X for that.

 

[KingJ]

???? There is a way to God without believing in Jesus? ????

Another point in addition to post # 270 came to mind.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

With the Holy Spirit gone as 2 Thess 2:6-8 states, nobody can believe Jesus is Lord. Paul says ''no one and except by''. There is no blur on this fact in this verse.

Fact 1 = The Holy Spirit will leave
Fact 2 = There will be tribulation saints
Fact 3 = Nobody can believe Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit

Therefore

Fact 4 = People in the tribulation will make there way to God by believing the two prophets and doing what John states in Revelations. IE Rejecting mark of the beast and being a martyr.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

No amount of faith, repentance, good works, praying in tongues, singing praise and worship will help you if you have the mark of the beast or do not endure martyrdom. This is an important fact.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus says:

1. Great tribulation worst period in human history
2. When the antichrist reveals himself, don't go back to your house

A logical person will interpret this as Jesus stating that the antichrist reveals himself on day 1 of the tribulation.

Why?

To believe the antichrist reveals himself mid trib is illogical. Mid trib is when the seventh seal is opened and the seven trumpets sound. How can the devil 'have his way' when God is 'having His way'.

You have to see the tribulation for what it is. It is a filtering process for all mankind with special attention to the Jews. It is logical that the you have 3.5 years of the antichrist doing his thing and then God, seeing the inhabitants of the earth are wicked, most righteous dead, starts dropping the worst plagues ever seen on the earth.

You need to evolve your thinking a bit beyond a literal reading of cherry picked scripture. Sit back and try rationalize all scripture on the topic.

It is not the end of the world to believe a mid trib rapture or mid trib antichrist revealing himself. I used to believe that. That was until I grasped the significance of Rev 2:10.

I don't believe a mid trib rapture. I believe it's post trib.

 

[KingJ]

Why?

For the same reason 1 + 1 = 2

I don't believe a mid trib rapture. I believe it's post trib.

That is completely illogical

 

[KingJ]

How strong is the biblical evidence for a unique event, "The Great Tribulation", that stands above and beyond the tribulations experienced by believers in every age since Jesus ascended to heaven?

Jesus says its the worst time in history of mankind on earth. We know that WW2 was the biggest war of all time and yet we are still here. So clearly, the Great tribulation that ends with the battle of Armageddon, is still en route.

 

[KingJ]

Its not God's wrath you will be facing, just like it was not God's wrath that Jesus faced on the cross.

Agreed, God would never pour His wrath out on 'His people'. In fact, this is a Christianity 101 statement of fact.

But this fact just opens up unanswerable questions for rapture deniers.

How will you escape His wrath in the tribulation?

Satan's hatred of all things good put Him there, not realizing his mistake in doing so.

I don't agree. Satan has known the A-Z of what he did and the consequences that would follow. He is an opportunist like any sinner. You open a door, he walks in.

Thats the wrath that will be greater than all time so far completed. As his days grow shorter, his wrath will grow, and many christians will fall to his wrath. Ones that were so sure they would be raptured out and not face any wrath. Oblivious to the danger, just like what God calls the bulk of us, His sheep.

So you believe God abandons us? What about children?

Don't you rapture deniers have a clue on how demented your view of God is if you teach and believe this?

It is like saying '''well done soldier, you fought the Taliban, now, I am going to take your weapons, body armour and leave you with the leader of the Taliban for seven years, oh and by the way, I love you and will never leave nor forsake you''.

 

[Butch5]

For the same reason 1 + 1 = 2

You're going to have to better than that. If it's what a logical person would conclude please how they'd come to that conclusion.

That is completely illogical

How so? "After" the tribulation the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, (Mat 24:29-31 KJV)

 

[Brad Huber]

So you believe God abandons us? What about children?

Don't you rapture deniers have a clue on how demented your view of God is if you teach and believe this?

It is like saying '''well done soldier, you fought the Taliban, now, I am going to take your weapons, body armour and leave you with the leader of the Taliban for seven years, oh and by the way, I love you and will never leave nor forsake you''.

Did God abandon all his children when they suffered and died horrible deaths, that are recorded in scripture or what history tells us of saints that folloed? Death and suffering are part of our calling if we follow Christ. Now as to losing salvation, thats a whole other topic, thats been discussed add nauseum here at TJ. Rather not delve into that subject here.

 

[Rhema]

1. Explain to me with scripture why you don't believe in the rapture. You don't have to overkill.

At this point, from reading a number of your posts, I have no idea what you mean by rapture. It looks like you use the word "rapture" as synonymous with "return." But the various Evangelical churches in America teach that the Rapture predates the Second Coming by seven years. I find those teachings untenable given the scripture passage in Matthew 24.

2. Do you believe Paul did not expect Jesus to return?

Of course Paul expected Jesus to return. But what the various Evangelical churches in America present as their Rapture Doctrine is unsupported in Paul's writings, and is certainly not present in Jesus' teachings. They see something that is not there.

3. Did the early Jews who converted to Christianity not expect Jesus to return and rescue them?

Yes, but at the Second Coming, not at the Third Coming. Nor was there ever an expressed belief that the Second Coming had a part A and part B that were separated by seven years. This is a modern day heresy. I think you conflate "Return" with "Rapture" and that's not what is taught across the USA.

*I* am expecting Jesus to return, but not within the "Hal Lindsey Rapture" fantasy.

4. What is a Christian and how do you become one? (This is a very important fact that is relevant, I will explain after you answer).

There are various doctrines of Soteriology, and given your pasts posts, this feels like the Pharisees trying to entrap Jesus. Obviously you have your own views that you believe are absolutely correct without any doubt about it, so ... maybe you can just fill me in. I don't play the "gotcha" game.



Now....
If I recall correctly, you believe history to be separated into distinct church "dispensations" that follow one after the other.

BUT, Rev 2:10 is in the letter written to the Church in Smyrna. Then follows Pergamos; Thyatira; Sardis; and Philadelphia before one even gets to Laodicea. If you place your "end-times John Believers" after Laodicea, an instruction given to those in Smyrna can hardly apply.

Rhema

 

[KingJ]

How so? "After" the tribulation the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.

You are making a separate point now and not dealing with Matt 24. You asked how the verses given support antichrist at start of tribulation.

The scripture I gave you is Jesus telling us that the Great Tribulation is the worst time in human history. Now, if only half is the worst time in human history, that would be a very big mistake by Jesus. You need the antichrist and God's seven trumpets and seven bowel judgements to have the worst time in human history on earth. Now logic should tell you that we have already experienced the worst of ''man''. The siege of Stalingrad for example can we do worse to each other? Logic should also tell you that in order for the antichrist to have his way the holy spirit has to leave. We see this in 2 Thess 2:6-8. Now logic should also tell you that Christians justified by faith in Jesus according to the message from Paul not again need to be justified by, A Not receiving the mark of the beast Rev 14:9-10 and B. Not being a martyr Rev 2:10.

It is not the end of the world to disagree on this. But let's not defy logic please. It is illogical to assume Jesus is only speaking to 3.5 years as the worst time in human history when the 'Great Tribulation' is seven years.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, (Mat 24:29-31 KJV)

This takes place at the end of the tribulation. After Armageddon.

 

[KingJ]

Did God abandon all his children when they suffered and died horrible deaths, that are recorded in scripture or what history tells us of saints that folloed? Death and suffering are part of our calling if we follow Christ.

There is a massive difference between suffering at the hands of 'man' verse the devil.

Our ''enemy'' is not ''man''. Our enemy is the devil. The antichrist. Your point is invalid.

 

[KingJ]

There are various doctrines of Soteriology, and given your pasts posts, this feels like the Pharisees trying to entrap Jesus. Obviously you have your own views that you believe are absolutely correct without any doubt about it, so ... maybe you can just fill me in. I don't play the "gotcha" game.

It's not a gotcha setup. It is just to better understand where you are coming from. Please answer. What is a Christian and how do you become one.

It is 100% relevant to how you interpret and understand verses on the end times.

This is a Rom 14:5 discussion, no wrong answers.

 

[Brad Huber]

There is a massive difference between suffering at the hands of 'man' verse the devil.

Our ''enemy'' is not ''man''. Our enemy is the devil. The antichrist. Your point is invalid.

Uuhhh... the book of Job???

 

[KingJ]

Uuhhh... the book of Job???

I was mentioning Job in my initial reply to you, but it would have been a very longwinded reply. As such I was hoping you would realize the point I was making and grasp its a separate matter.

In order to explain why Job, tribulation saints and in fact everyone on the planet (as God put the devil on earth) is irrelevant to the point I am making, I need you to explain to me - What you believe a Christian is and how do you become one?

And please don't over complicate it. One line on what a Christin is and one line on how you become one.

 

[KingJ]

This thread is going the same direction as discussions on OSAS. So many just don't know what a Christian is.

Its like trying to teach people you think are riding a bicycle to turn left, only to find out they don't even know what a bicycle is.