Christians and the Tribulation

[Bethel]

Please show us in scripture that says people are saved during the tribulation, because scripture says non repent,

Ok

Rev 7

And remember......these are the "Matt 24"... those who have "endured to the END" = of the Grt Trib. (Jesus describes).

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”

 

[KingJ]

Please show us in scripture that says people are saved during the tribulation, because scripture says non repent,

Revelation 9:21​

Nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
now this is chapter 9 so maybe earlier in the book it says people are repenting,

in fact Jesus commands the church to repent when he rights his 7 letters,

Revelation 3:3 ​

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.​

No scripture in revelations suggest that people are being born again and repenting and getting saved, yet all the pre tribbers say that is what is happening, and Paul speaks of a great falling away during end times.

There are a number of verses in Revelations that end with 'they repented not'. It is a statement that follows a plague leading to a worse and more severe one. Tribulation saints are expected mostly in the first 3.5 years and the general theory is that they will mostly be killed off by the time the seven trumpets of the seventh seal are blown.

Rev 2:10 and Rev 20:4 makes it clear that to be a saint in the tribulation requires torment and martyrdom. I agree with you in that they are not the typical saved by faith Christian. The two prophets that never died (Elijah and maybe Enoch) will also be preaching to Jews and other during the first half of the tribulation. Why if there will be no 'tribulation' saints?

The great falling away deserves its own thread. The general theory is that it occurs shortly before the tribulation starts. As we see in Matt 24 that hardships start before the antichrist reveals himself in the holy place Matt 24:15. IE Matt 24:1-14 can cause a falling away. There will certainly be a great falling away in the tribulation too. If you asked 8 billion people to get the mark of the beast and explain that with it they can buy food or reject it and be unable to buy food and will soon experience torment and martyrdom, I expect 99% to choose the first option and state ''well Christianity is just not working out for me anymore ''

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I've heard many pre-tib believers say, the churches will be really crowded right after the rapture. This will be greatest time of revival in history. Perhaps this may be true, but I don't
really see this in the Bible, in fact, it mostly says just the opposite.

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

It would seem that the vast majority of unbelievers, will remain unsaved during the tribulation. I'm not saying no one will be saved during this time, I just don't see it being a huge revival.

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Rev 22:11; "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Perhaps the churches will be packed with "Christians" who were not ready?

 

[Curtis]

The "great tribulation" can not even begin until the Church has been removed from this earth.

2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The antichrist can not be revealed until the restrainer has been taken out of the way. Who is the restrainer?
Who is the only one on planet Earth who has authority over all the works of the devil?

Jesus said.....

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

 

[Curtis]

Please show us in scripture that says people are saved during the tribulation, because scripture says non repent,

Revelation 9:21​

Nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
now this is chapter 9 so maybe earlier in the book it says people are repenting,

in fact Jesus commands the church to repent when he rights his 7 letters,

Revelation 3:3 ​

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.​

No scripture in revelations suggest that people are being born again and repenting and getting saved, yet all the pre tribbers say that is what is happening, and Paul speaks of a great falling away during end times.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Brad Huber]

The "great tribulation" can not even begin until the Church has been removed from this earth.

2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The antichrist can not be revealed until the restrainer has been taken out of the way. Who is the restrainer?
Who is the only one on planet Earth who has authority over all the works of the devil?

Jesus said.....

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Not saying you are wrong, but I was thinking the Holy Spirit, not the internal one, but the Holy Spirit which convicts sinners of thier sins. The main job of the Holy Spirit, conviction of us humans. I see the Holy Spirit as that which restrains.

 

[Curtis]

Not saying you are wrong, but I was thinking the Holy Spirit, not the internal one, but the Holy Spirit which convicts sinners of thier sins. The main job of the Holy Spirit, conviction of us humans. I see the Holy Spirit as that which restrains.

Absolutely, the Holy Spirit Lives in the Church who was given authority over all the power of the evil one. We have the authority and the Spirit of God is the power that backs up our authority.

 

[Dave M]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

this verse seem to be all believers not just out of the tribulation imo

 

[Dave M]

Absolutely, the Holy Spirit Lives in the Church who was given authority over all the power of the evil one. We have the authority and the Spirit of God is the power that backs up our authority.

I do recall in Daniel I believe a arch angel was detained because he was in battle, I am not saying for certain who the restrainer is but this is another possibility
Daniel
13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.…

 

[Curtis]

I do recall in Daniel I believe a arch angel was detained because he was in battle, I am not saying for certain who the restrainer is but this is another possibility
Daniel
13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.…

You are right about that, but now we are in the New Testament where the Church was given authority from Jesus over all the powers of the devil. We were also given the "keys of the Kindom" which is the ability to bind (restrain), principalities and power, rulers of darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.

The devil is known as the god of this world and we know the whole world around us lies in wickedness and is under his control.

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one. (NLT)

Even though the world is under the devil's control, he does not have "total" control as long as the Church is still on planet Earth. As Jesus said we are the "light" of this world. The antichrist who is also called the "son of perdition" can not do what he wants until the light is gone which is the Church.
The restrainer (the Church) must be removed before satan can have "total" control of the earth. The removal of the Church will begin the tribulation period and the great tribulation.

 

[Hekuran]

There is nothing anywhere in the scriptures about the church being removed.

1 Thessalonians speaks of the saints being gathered to the sky - but that happens at the moment of Christ's return. It takes place after the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Dave M]

The antichrist who is also called the "son of perdition" can not do what he wants until the light is gone which is the Church.

If you think the church is Gone and I hope it is, I personally do not see it. You have to ask yourself who are these people then. Saints are usually referred to as brothers in CHrist Christians the church.

Revelation 13:7​

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,
So they are in the tribulation. then we also have the scripture you posted earlier saying
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

so its pretty easy to prove Christians are going through the tribulation,,,

however it is really hard to prove these Christians as I am sure all pretribbers believe as I once did are the "tribulations christians" the ones that come to Christ during the tribulation,,, now that would be very hard to prove,,, and we have to ask our-self if they would not live for Christ when they had the chance why would they die for Christ now all of the sudden. MOst people have to grow into strong Christians to be able to be willing to die for Christ, IMO

 

[Curtis]

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.

You have to remember that Jesus gave to the (pre-trib) Church authority over ALL the power of the devil, but you do not see that here with these people. I believe these people must be part of 5 foolish virgin group that thought they were saved but found out they were not missing the rapture. Yes, they can be saved but at the cost of their lives.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

 

[Curtis]

2Th2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM, we ask you,

Our gathering together to him would be the rapture or catching away of the church

2Th2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or BY WORD OR BY LETTER, AS IF FROM US, as though the day of Christ had come.

There was a group of people or person who had infiltrated the Church that wrote fake letters to the Church telling them that rapture had already taken place and now they were heading into the great tribulation. This is the whole reason why Paul wrote this letter to the church to correct a false teaching.


2Th2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNLESS THE FALLING AWAY COMES FIRST, AND THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION,

Paul assures them that the great tribulation can NOT start until there is a falling away first, and THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED ALSO KNOWN AS THE SON OF PERDITION.


The son of perdition is Satan manifested in the flesh just as Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. There is another place in the New Testament that describes this same person.


John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost EXCEPT THE SON OF PERDITION, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.


The son of perdition Jesus was referring to was Judas Iscariot.


Luke 22:3 Then SATAN ENTERED JUDAS, SURNAMED ISCARIOT, who was numbered among the twelve.


Satan manifested in the flesh is the one who betrayed Jesus!

Paul reminds the Church he had already told them this before.


2Th2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you the things?
2Th2:6 And NOW YOU KNOW WHAT IS RESTRAINING, THAT HE MAY BE REVEALED IN HIS OWN TIME.


There is a power force that is “restraining” the son of perdition from being revealed in his own time.


2Th2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only HE WHO NOW RESTRAINS WILL DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

2Th2:8 And THEN THE LAWLESS ONE WILL BE REVEALED, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


Whatever this restraining force is, is stopping the son of perdition from being revealed until he (the restraining force) is taken out of the way.


The only people on Earth right now that are restraining the Antichrist from being revealed is the Church of Jesus Christ whom Jesus gave authority over ALL of the power of the devil!!!


Luke 10:19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and OVER ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.


Later Jesus gives to his Church “the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven”


Mat18:18 Verily I say unto you, WHATSOEVER YE SHALL BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


To“BIND” is to “RESTRAIN”!!!


Once the Church has been raptured from the Earth......


2Th2:8 And THEN THE LAWLESS ONE WILL BE REVEALED, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

2Th2:9 THE COMING OF THE LAWLESSNESS ACCORDING TO THE WORKING OF SATAN, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

2Th2:10 AND WITH ALL UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION AMONG THOSE WHO PERISH, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.


2Th2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,


2Th2:17 COMFORT YOUR HEARTS and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Hekuran]

Once the Church has been raptured from the Earth......


2Th2:8 And THEN THE LAWLESS ONE WILL BE REVEALED, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The text says nothing about the church being raptured from the earth here. You're reading 'rapture' into all sorts of places where it does not belong

 

[B-A-C]

You have to remember that Jesus gave to the (pre-trib) Church authority over ALL the power of the devil, but you do not see that here with these people. I believe these people must be part of 5 foolish virgin group that thought they were saved but found out they were not missing the rapture. Yes, they can be saved but at the cost of their lives.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Why would post/mid trib saints be any different and not have the same power.

At least some of them will....

Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
Rev 11:6; These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7; When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

 

[B-A-C]

2Th2:8 And THEN THE LAWLESS ONE WILL BE REVEALED, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

But this doesn't happen until 'AFTER'....

2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The 2nd coming / rapture gathering of the saints ( whatever you want to call it ) will not happen until many in the church fall away. ( the apostasy ) and the beast ( the man of lawlessness ) is revealed .

"Let no one deceived you". No 2nd coming, no rapture until the beast is revealed. In fact depending on how your Bible translates verse 4 above. It won't even happen until "he takes his seat in the temple".

 

[Curtis]

But this doesn't happen until 'AFTER'....

2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The 2nd coming / rapture gathering of the saints ( whatever you want to call it ) will not happen until many in the church fall away. ( the apostasy ) and the beast ( the man of lawlessness ) is revealed .

"Let no one deceived you". No 2nd coming, no rapture until the beast is revealed. In fact depending on how your Bible translates verse 4 above. It won't even happen until "he takes his seat in the temple".

The only two things that need to happen is the apostasy (which means a departure) and not until we read a few verses later do we discover it is referring the removing of the “restrained” who is the Church. The antichrist can not be revealed while the restrainer is here on Earth.

Verse 4 is only telling us what this son of perdition will do after the restrainer is gone halfway through the 7 year tribulation period.

 

[Hekuran]

"Let no one deceived you". No 2nd coming, no rapture until the beast is revealed. In fact depending on how your Bible translates verse 4 above. It won't even happen until "he takes his seat in the temple".

The most likely candidate for this is Titus, who described and destroyed the temple in 70ad. And as emperor he also took on the Son of God title.

 

[Curtis]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Notice: Paul is NOT talking about the rapture, or second coming of Jesus he is referring to the great tribulation that the Church thought they were heading into. The Church was being severely persecuted by their own country men which false teaches used to try and deceive them that the great tribulation period was upon them.