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Dear Church Member

Sue are there issues with the church you belong to...?
If there are..take a step back. If you in a church that theres so many things that dont sit right with you..there is nothing wrong with asking God am I in the fellowship you want me to belong to?

Have a chat with your pastor about concerns, but also pray for the leaders...really pray. There was one time there was an issue with leaders in my church that didnt sit right with me and I just had to pray and pray. There will be time when you might have to rebuke someone but if they are elder to you treat them as dads or mums..with respect and honor. Continue to be salt and light and in your walk..its easy to point the finger and I admit I can do that too without seeing I might have the same or even worse faults.

You never know, you pastor might be open to hearing from you speak out and even invite you to preach about it! If theres a sharing time in your church or board meetings or anything like that, perhaps take the opportunity to encourage the church if God is leading you to say something.

Lanolin, thank you, but no worries. Just sharing what God gives me to share.
 
@Sue J Love - long and rambling thoughts following. Writing this down has helped me sharpen my own thoughts. I'm not putting this forward as a final statement on anything - this is as far as I have got to date.

Acts 15. A dispute rises up in Antioch with people travelling from Jerusalem to persuade the church “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” There is clearly an out and out row about this. This is Paul's first missionary journey and he has not yet written any of the epistles, so he is still probably not that well known in the church. Certainly he would not have the reputation that he has now.

They take their dispute to a higher authority - the apostles and elders in Jerusalem.

Paul and Barnabas submit the decision to James and the rest of the council. It looks like the debate might have been a pretty close-run thing. I wonder how confident Paul and Barnabas were of success, and what consequences they forsaw if the council ruled against them.

I think this has some principles worth taking note of.

  • Be accountable to authority.
  • Collective decision
  • Church authority listens both to the lead of the Holy Spirit and to those they have authority over.

Paul and Barnabas know they are right in what they are teaching. So why take the risk of going back to Jerusalem, where the decision might go against them? Because the unity and health of the whole church is paramount.

You might well disagree with Chester Wenger's position, but the way he An open letter to my beloved church challenged his own Mennonite Church, and resigned his creditentials as a missionary and pastor are a model of profound disagreement meeting humble submission.

You asked about how I go about it?

Paul, Barnabas and Chester Wenger all had a recognised role in their church. I don't. I preach occasionally in my home congregation of around 40 people, support worship leaders and generally run about helping make sure the wheels don't fall off.

In our church we have people coming from very different parts of the Church: Caribbean Pentecostal, African Anglican, conservative evangelical and so on.

Our church leader is commissioned and approved by the wider church. That means we are not a stand alone congregation, but a part of a wider family. Part of his commissioning is to promise to stay faithful to the word of God and to the teaching of the church.

Week-by-week we have conventional preaching at Sunday services and a mid-week bible study during which we have more opportunity to talk about the bible passage, discuss its meaning and pray through its application to our everyday lives. For me, this is the key opportunity to question, challenge and debate. If there is something we disagree with or are unsure about this is our opportunity to raise it.

This works well enough in learning together, and we can talk through difference of emphasis.

If I think something in the church is wrong, it is better to go directly to the most appropriate leader and talk about in a straightforward way.

A few years ago, I grew very concerned that our church was becoming a bit cosy and insular - very caring and supportive to members, but weak in its concern for the world. It came to a head in the week that the UK parliament was voting on military action action in Syria (2013) and there was no mention of this or prayer about the situation at any point of the service.

I went directly to the church leader afterwards (angrily, to my shame) and made my case. He listened, calmed me down and we talked about how the church could do better. I think he did well in listening and being accountable.

My view is that if I discern that something is wrong in my church, then it is my responsibility as a part of the body to respond so that the whole church does not suffer or is not made ineffective in spreading the gospel. Everybody else, no matter what their role in the church, has the same responsibility.

Last, there is one principle that is absolutely vital, the only thing that stops the church from sliding into autocracy on one side or a toothless democracy on the other:

The head of the church is Jesus Christ.
 
@Sue J Love - long and rambling thoughts following. Writing this down has helped me sharpen my own thoughts. I'm not putting this forward as a final statement on anything - this is as far as I have got to date.

Acts 15. A dispute rises up in Antioch with people travelling from Jerusalem to persuade the church “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” There is clearly an out and out row about this. This is Paul's first missionary journey and he has not yet written any of the epistles, so he is still probably not that well known in the church. Certainly he would not have the reputation that he has now.

They take their dispute to a higher authority - the apostles and elders in Jerusalem.

Paul and Barnabas submit the decision to James and the rest of the council. It looks like the debate might have been a pretty close-run thing. I wonder how confident Paul and Barnabas were of success, and what consequences they forsaw if the council ruled against them.

I think this has some principles worth taking note of.

  • Be accountable to authority.
  • Collective decision
  • Church authority listens both to the lead of the Holy Spirit and to those they have authority over.

Paul and Barnabas know they are right in what they are teaching. So why take the risk of going back to Jerusalem, where the decision might go against them? Because the unity and health of the whole church is paramount.

You might well disagree with Chester Wenger's position, but the way he An open letter to my beloved church challenged his own Mennonite Church, and resigned his creditentials as a missionary and pastor are a model of profound disagreement meeting humble submission.

You asked about how I go about it?

Paul, Barnabas and Chester Wenger all had a recognised role in their church. I don't. I preach occasionally in my home congregation of around 40 people, support worship leaders and generally run about helping make sure the wheels don't fall off.

In our church we have people coming from very different parts of the Church: Caribbean Pentecostal, African Anglican, conservative evangelical and so on.

Our church leader is commissioned and approved by the wider church. That means we are not a stand alone congregation, but a part of a wider family. Part of his commissioning is to promise to stay faithful to the word of God and to the teaching of the church.

Week-by-week we have conventional preaching at Sunday services and a mid-week bible study during which we have more opportunity to talk about the bible passage, discuss its meaning and pray through its application to our everyday lives. For me, this is the key opportunity to question, challenge and debate. If there is something we disagree with or are unsure about this is our opportunity to raise it.

This works well enough in learning together, and we can talk through difference of emphasis.

If I think something in the church is wrong, it is better to go directly to the most appropriate leader and talk about in a straightforward way.

A few years ago, I grew very concerned that our church was becoming a bit cosy and insular - very caring and supportive to members, but weak in its concern for the world. It came to a head in the week that the UK parliament was voting on military action action in Syria (2013) and there was no mention of this or prayer about the situation at any point of the service.

I went directly to the church leader afterwards (angrily, to my shame) and made my case. He listened, calmed me down and we talked about how the church could do better. I think he did well in listening and being accountable.

My view is that if I discern that something is wrong in my church, then it is my responsibility as a part of the body to respond so that the whole church does not suffer or is not made ineffective in spreading the gospel. Everybody else, no matter what their role in the church, has the same responsibility.

Last, there is one principle that is absolutely vital, the only thing that stops the church from sliding into autocracy on one side or a toothless democracy on the other:

The head of the church is Jesus Christ.

Thank you for sharing that. It sounds as though you have an open door within your local fellowship to talk about such things openly and that you have leaders who are willing to listen, and it sounds as though you believe you function well as the body of Christ, and that Christ truly is the head. That is encouraging to hear that. Know, though, that many churches in today's world here in America do not function that way at all, and that if you take your responsibility as part of the body to do as you said that they will cut you off at the knees, kick you to the curb, ban you from the premises, tell you to go someplace else, tell you they are to be God's voice to you and that you are to just sit back and shut up and that you have no voice or input because their goals, objectives, vision, etc. is fixed, and you don't fit, and so they will gladly help you find someplace else where you do fit. In a perfect world, it should work like you said, but we don't live in a perfect world, and not all church congregations function as the body of Christ, but more like dictatorships. So, there is not always an avenue to do as you suggest here. But, that is great that you have that opportunity. Happy for you.
 
That's depressing.

Don't get too rosy a picture about my home church. I could grow a beard in the time it would take to list our faults. We are good at being open to everybody, but I think we could be a lot bolder about the way we draw our conclusions and and act together on them. That's by the bye.

Are there creative and respectful ways to challenge totalitarian power?

I would want to put a general question to such leaders: 'If I felt that the Spirit was speaking to me about a leadership issue in the church, what would be the most Christlike way for me respond?'

I know that's a naughty question wrapped in humble language ;). Would asking this cause me to be thrown onto the street?
 
2 Peter 1:20 NASB
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
 
That's depressing.

Don't get too rosy a picture about my home church. I could grow a beard in the time it would take to list our faults. We are good at being open to everybody, but I think we could be a lot bolder about the way we draw our conclusions and and act together on them. That's by the bye.

Are there creative and respectful ways to challenge totalitarian power?

I would want to put a general question to such leaders: 'If I felt that the Spirit was speaking to me about a leadership issue in the church, what would be the most Christlike way for me respond?'

I know that's a naughty question wrapped in humble language ;). Would asking this cause me to be thrown onto the street?

Thank you for your reply. The answer to your question here is as individual as the people and circumstances to which it applies.
 
2 Peter 1:20 NASB
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

@B-A-C -

There are varied views on what this means, but I am particularly interested in how you are applying this passage to this discussion.

Anyway, I looked at what some commentators said about it:

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

“The truths which the prophets communicated were not originated by themselves; were not of their own suggestion or invention; were not their own opinions, but were of higher origin, and were imparted by God; and according to this the passage may be explained, knowing this as a point of first importance when you approach the prophecies, or always bearing this in mind, that it is a great principle in regard to the prophets, that what they communicated ‘was not of their own disclosure;’ that is, was not revealed or originated by them."

Others stated that it is also that we must rely upon the Holy Spirit for us to be able to understand what the scriptures teach, as we can't interpret scripture apart from the Holy Spirit. So, basically, prophecy of scripture does not come about through humans but from God and through the Holy Spirit, and it is understood in the same way.
 
2 Peter 1:20 NASB
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

The context helps us understand better what this is saying:

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

V. 16, and in particular v. 21 hits the nail on the head.
 
Do you write a letter to your pastor or leaders or do you write a letter to everyone in the church to be read out when you gather? Just wondering...
 
Thank you for sharing that. It sounds as though you have an open door within your local fellowship to talk about such things openly and that you have leaders who are willing to listen, and it sounds as though you believe you function well as the body of Christ, and that Christ truly is the head. That is encouraging to hear that. Know, though, that many churches in today's world here in America do not function that way at all, and that if you take your responsibility as part of the body to do as you said that they will cut you off at the knees, kick you to the curb, ban you from the premises, tell you to go someplace else, tell you they are to be God's voice to you and that you are to just sit back and shut up and that you have no voice or input because their goals, objectives, vision, etc. is fixed, and you don't fit, and so they will gladly help you find someplace else where you do fit. In a perfect world, it should work like you said, but we don't live in a perfect world, and not all church congregations function as the body of Christ, but more like dictatorships. So, there is not always an avenue to do as you suggest here. But, that is great that you have that opportunity. Happy for you.
Sorry if you had a bad experience, sounds like there are some rotten churches in america. I have had a similar experience on some christian forums actually..which I think may orignate in america. I was actually banned a few times for speaking scripture and bringing up topics like divorce and widowhood, and also working through dificutlits with catholics. They didnt say they were Gods voice to me, though. And their statement of faith changed with each different forum plus they made sooo many rules that changed all the time I couldnt keep up. I would think I would be following one only to be caught out by another. I tried writing to the mods but the thing is each different mod I got the impression didnt actually read my posts properly.

Plus they encouraged debate, which isnt a christian thing to do. So everytime I made a thread there would be someone on there trying to debate me and I would be like I dont want a debate! I didnt make a thread to start an argument!!!
 
Do you write a letter to your pastor or leaders or do you write a letter to everyone in the church to be read out when you gather? Just wondering...
@Lanolin - if you are speaking to me, i write only for posting on the internet. God called me in 2004 to write what he teaches me and to post it on the internet, but it wasnt until 2006 that he had me begin writing nearly daily. Prior to that my husband and I had a ministry to college students out of our home which we did for 7.5 years. That ministry ended in May of 2006 and this one began in June of the same year. This is my full time job, i.e. my assingment from the Lord; my part in the body of Christ.
 
Sorry if you had a bad experience, sounds like there are some rotten churches in america. I have had a similar experience on some christian forums actually..which I think may orignate in america. I was actually banned a few times for speaking scripture and bringing up topics like divorce and widowhood, and also working through dificutlits with catholics. They didnt say they were Gods voice to me, though. And their statement of faith changed with each different forum plus they made sooo many rules that changed all the time I couldnt keep up. I would think I would be following one only to be caught out by another. I tried writing to the mods but the thing is each different mod I got the impression didnt actually read my posts properly.

Plus they encouraged debate, which isnt a christian thing to do. So everytime I made a thread there would be someone on there trying to debate me and I would be like I dont want a debate! I didnt make a thread to start an argument!!!

@Lanolin - Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful remarks. I appreciate them very much. You have a sensitive spirit about you that is very sweet, so again, thanks for caring and for your concern.

We all have bad experiences from time to time, but what is important is that we learn from them, put our trust in the Lord, let him teach us and mature us, and come out better (closer in our walks of faith) because of having gone through them. If I had not gone through some of the things I have gone through in my life I would not be who I am, doing what I am doing today, so God used them for good in my life to prepare me for his service.

As far as churches (local fellowships of believers) go, it is true that America is riddled right now with many which are man-made businesses which are being marketed just like any other business, and thus the leaders are being trained in marketing schemes and business goals and objectives which train them as to who their target audience should be, and what types of people they should avoid and discourage from participation in their fellowships, and in how to use certain types of people to launch their ministries but then in how to discard them once they get up and running. I know this because my husband and I went through the training, and because we connected with several of these churches, so we have first-hand knowledge as to how they operate. I have read a lot on this subject by various authors (pastors, mainly) who also see the tragedy of where much of today's modern business-model churches have strayed from the Bible and are following humans instead. And, the Lord Jesus has given me hundreds of messages on this subject, too, because he is calling out to his adulterous church to repent and to return to him as her only LOVE.

I am with you in that I don't like arguing either. We are not supposed to fight over words. We can have healthy discussions without it turning in to heated or nasty arguments. I agree!

Anyway, thanks for caring.
 
I like reading what you write Sue you think deeply about your topic and its what God wants you to write.
I like to write but Im not sure I have a ministry to write...yet. I need more practice!

When we speak or write out the truth often times people dont want to hear it and there will be times when you will experience persecution but you just count it all joy because that means Gods Word is so powerful that its seen as a threat to the enemy...if it had no impact it would be met with indifference.

Unfortuately with business model churches yes that comes from copying corporate america. I'm not sure why that is, but it seems to have trickled down to nz where I am. I can pinpoint one proponent because and that was the author of 'the purpose driven church' because apparently this was adopted by many churches where it hadnt been before, so that the pastor could comfortably live off the church members tithes. So..if you pastored a church in a rich area it worked for these churches, but woe to you if you go to a poor area.
 
I like reading what you write Sue you think deeply about your topic and its what God wants you to write.
I like to write but Im not sure I have a ministry to write...yet. I need more practice!

When we speak or write out the truth often times people dont want to hear it and there will be times when you will experience persecution but you just count it all joy because that means Gods Word is so powerful that its seen as a threat to the enemy...if it had no impact it would be met with indifference.

Unfortuately with business model churches yes that comes from copying corporate america. I'm not sure why that is, but it seems to have trickled down to nz where I am. I can pinpoint one proponent because and that was the author of 'the purpose driven church' because apparently this was adopted by many churches where it hadnt been before, so that the pastor could comfortably live off the church members tithes. So..if you pastored a church in a rich area it worked for these churches, but woe to you if you go to a poor area.

All glory to God! I would not be here if he did not call me, train me, equip me and guide me in the way he would have me go.

@Lanolin - Thank you for sharing these thoughts with me. I appreciate what you have shared here, and I know most of what you are talking about from personal experience. Yes, there was a man-made movement which swept across America's churches, cross-denominational, and that has certainly been the spiritual downfall of many who have followed suit, sad to say. But, God is in control, and he is absolutely sovereign over all he has made, and I believe he intends to revive his church and to turn hearts back to him who have gone off to follow the gods of men instead of the purity of his Word. So, there is hope!

God bless you! Sue
 
I think of the churches I see round about me are too often like the natural tribes of Israel following Moses and the pillars by day and night toward the destination which God set before them. They all were given the same opportunity and information as a basis, yet, of the adults [age 20 +] who came out of Egypt, only two [Joshua and Caleb] were allowed to enter into the Promised Land. The others all died in the wilderness due to their repeated rebellions against God.

Yes, there is still Hope, but each of us needs to pay attention to what God is saying to us. Listening today and making vows and promises which are soon forgotten is what those Israelites did who died in the wilderness. Too many people want to hear answers that tickle their ears and satisfy the appetites of their bellies instead of the answer that God has for them.

They often were and we often are as selfish children allowing themselves/ourselves to be blown back forth by every wind of doctrine that a man could devise.

God speak through people, but without the Holy Spirit directing us, how many of us are doing better than the ones who died in the wilderness? We also have a Promised Land set before us by God, but we need to follow our cloud by day and our pillar of fire by night... We need to follow our Moses. We need to follow Jesus and the Word of God as we are directed by the Holy Ghost.

The time to leave a physical church group is when we are "called out of her". This may never happen to some, but some to whom is might happen are not hearing His voice and so never know what it is He does or does not want us to do. If we cannot hear His voice, we likely need to do so before seriously considering changing our place.

I am speaking to people who already are believers. If you are a baby, it is hardly your decision to make to walk away and not return or to change where your home is. If you are not a baby then listen to His voice and obey...
 
I think of the churches I see round about me are too often like the natural tribes of Israel following Moses and the pillars by day and night toward the destination which God set before them. They all were given the same opportunity and information as a basis, yet, of the adults [age 20 +] who came out of Egypt, only two [Joshua and Caleb] were allowed to enter into the Promised Land. The others all died in the wilderness due to their repeated rebellions against God.

Yes, there is still Hope, but each of us needs to pay attention to what God is saying to us. Listening today and making vows and promises which are soon forgotten is what those Israelites did who died in the wilderness. Too many people want to hear answers that tickle their ears and satisfy the appetites of their bellies instead of the answer that God has for them.

They often were and we often are as selfish children allowing themselves/ourselves to be blown back forth by every wind of doctrine that a man could devise.

God speak through people, but without the Holy Spirit directing us, how many of us are doing better than the ones who died in the wilderness? We also have a Promised Land set before us by God, but we need to follow our cloud by day and our pillar of fire by night... We need to follow our Moses. We need to follow Jesus and the Word of God as we are directed by the Holy Ghost.

The time to leave a physical church group is when we are "called out of her". This may never happen to some, but some to whom is might happen are not hearing His voice and so never know what it is He does or does not want us to do. If we cannot hear His voice, we likely need to do so before seriously considering changing our place.

I am speaking to people who already are believers. If you are a baby, it is hardly your decision to make to walk away and not return or to change where your home is. If you are not a baby then listen to His voice and obey...

Thank you @amadeus2 - I appreciate what you have shared here, because I know it comes from your heart. Yes, we absolutely must follow our Lord in obedience. But, we have to be listening to him (his Word) first, so we know what he desires of us.
 
“The truths which the prophets communicated were not originated by themselves; were not of their own suggestion or invention; were not their own opinions, but were of higher origin, and were imparted by God; and according to this the passage may be explained, knowing this as a point of first importance when you approach the prophecies, or always bearing this in mind, that it is a great principle in regard to the prophets, that what they communicated ‘was not of their own disclosure;’ that is, was not revealed or originated by them."

Yes, I think this is a great explanation. The prophets of old didn't "make" anything happen on their own power.
(there were false prophets even in the old testament).
But they spoke the truth that God revealed to them. Prophecy isn't just foretelling the future. Prophecy is proclaiming a truth of God's Word also.
There are plenty of people declaring God's Word means this or that.... but just because they are saying it, doesn't mean God revealed it to them.

Many false churches/religions get started because people break off from church and go off on their own and come up with private "relevation"
from God. This is how the Mormon church got started, this is how Islam got started, this is how the Jehovah's witnesses got started.

It's always better to be in a place where iron can sharpen iron.
 
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