Did God Use Evolution?

[Doughboy]

There are no transitional fossils to suggest evolution is real but it is possible God did use evolution and not only that but there is macro evolution. Wikipedia describes macroevolution as

1:"a scale of analysis of evolution in separated gene pools."

2:"The process of speciation may fall within the purview of either, depending on the forces thought to drive it."

3:"Abrupt transformations from a biologic system to another, for example the passing of life from water onto land or the transition from invertebrates to vertebrates, are rare."

"The evolutionary course of all horses and related animals is often viewed as a typical example of macroevolution."

In a nut shell it's the progress of animal species not the jump from one species to another.

So we know that all the animals we have today were not around back in the beginning for the gradually macro-evolved into what they are now. But does that disprove evolution all together? Who's to say God didn't say to reptile grow feathers and sprout wings and fly or to the fish, climb out of the water and sprout legs? After all some species of fish have full or partial lungs and the mud guppy, even though it's a fish, lives mostly out of the water and breathes through it's skin like an amphibian, and there are dinosaurs with feather though they are not birds and birds legs are very reptilian like. Perhaps there are transitional fossils because God using great power made it instant and through the process of macroevolution individual species formed such as Wolf to Chihuahua.

So what ape to man. No, for those who are believers know that this is the only creation God made that he describes how he created, but were there humans before Adam and Eve? God tells Adam, "Go forth and replenish the Earth." replenish it? what was here before? There must have been early human like beings, looking far different than modern man. God then wiped these humanoids out and created modern man using these creatures as a blue print.

What about the days? The bible says in Day one God did this on day two that and so on but some will say that these days were not 24 hour long days. In fact since God did not create the sun and moon till day four they couldn't be 24 hour long days but what were they. I refer them as steps, step one=day one. How long was a step, no one knows since there is no precise way to date the earth. Well with that out of the way what about day four. On day one was light, day three Plants, why moon and sun on day four and how did plants survive without them and how did he create light in the beginning. Simple for those who are believers. God is all powerful and can do what ever he wants no matter how impossible it seems so if he wants to wait before creating the sun and moon he can do that.

And on a final note a friend of mine said something really insightful about the topic "Not to mention the fact that it says that whenever God created something it said "and He saw that it was good" makes me believe that he evolved things up to his final standards, saw it was good, then moved on to the next things!"

This is just a brief note on what I have come up with and I hope this helps you come up with your own theories and please let me know what you think after all no one is right and no one is wrong.

PillsburyDoughboy
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[ChildrenOfLight]

whoa! that's an awesome post! i never thought of it like that, and your views actually make sense!

i think they were literal days, about that part, and that there were never prehuman apes

but you have great info here, i researched this topic a lot.

my views are that they were 7 literal days in the beginning (our week), every kind of animal was formed, and then different species evolved from each kind through microevolution into different species (or macro, as you put it, since it's possible, and i never knew that

replenish probably just means 'to fill' in greek/hebrew

humans probably were a little different in the back and stuff back then but who knows, i heard there was a lot more oxygen in the atmosphere then,

have you seen videos by Kent Hovind ?

go google video him! hehe. i think he's ok and most of his theories seem pretty legit, most of em... a lotta people bash him though, but he seems like a good guy.

grace n' peace to you!

 

[Boanerges]

149362So what ape to man

These are just my opinions: Macro evolution is possible but not without creation to work with. I do believe for example tropical people will have dark skin to protect them from the sun but they will always remain people and not evolve into anything else.

What did God use? No one can say for sure on some things but He directly created man as He formed him whole out of the dust of the ground. Personally, the whole ape to man line has been disproved to many times and some scientists have been caught intentionally falsifying data to prove their point.
There were no human beings before Adam and Eve, that is a common misconception and Eve was the "mother of all living" (Gen 3:20).
Do a Google search on "Glenrose Texas creation museum" and you can view a fossil with both human and dinosaur prints in the same strata.

And on a final note a friend of mine said something really insightful about the topic "Not to mention the fact that it says that whenever God created something it said "and He saw that it was good" makes me believe that he evolved things up to his final standards, saw it was good, then moved on to the next things!"

That my friend takes quite a stretch of the imagination, and there is no real evidence for that assumption. But you are entitled to your opinion.

So we know that all the animals we have today were not around back in the beginning for the gradually macro-evolved into what they are now

What we do know is that we haven't found evidence of these animals but does that mean they did not exist? Hmm. That cannot be said with complete confidence. I beleive that the majority of those who died out early simply were not on the ark with Noah.

What about the days? The bible says in Day one God did this on day two that and so on but some will say that these days were not 24 hour long days. In fact since God did not create the sun and moon till day four they couldn't be 24 hour long days but what were they

While I agree with you that they may not have been 24 hour days they certainly could have been and there is no reason why they could not have been.
The night and day as one period was in Gen 1:5, Gen 1:14 and before the creation of animal life on earth.
Then there are problems with the methods used to date material. Carbon dating is particularly inaccurate and a living piece of mollusk was carbon dated at 70,000 years old.
Radiometric dating is flawed. It measures the decay of Uranium into lead and dates materials according to the lead content. This is obviously skewed as no one can show what the original lead content of a given material was before decomposition occured.
Then there is the circular reasoning of dating rock or strata by fossil content and dating fossil content by strata.
When looked at objectively the Theory of evolution (it is a theory but taught as fact) takes far more blind faith that believing the creation scenario in Genesis.
But then these are just my views and view are a dime a dozen, LOL. I enjoyed reading your post .
Have a blessed day,
your brother Larry.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

evolution

All I know is Hitler used evolution to justify his position on killing Jews. His reasoning was they were not evolved as that of the superior race! The foot soldiers were given booklets stating evolution to help them believe the lie that Jewish people were sub human.

 

[StopPolloition]

Who's to say God didn't say to reptile grow feathers and sprout wings and fly or to the fish, climb out of the water and sprout legs?

God tells Adam, "Go forth and replenish the Earth." replenish it? what was here before? There must have been early human like beings, looking far different than modern man. God then wiped these humanoids out and created modern man using these creatures as a blue print.

What about the days? The bible says in Day one God did this on day two that and so on but some will say that these days were not 24 hour long days. In fact since God did not create the sun and moon till day four they couldn't be 24 hour long days but what were they.

Seems as though you are interspersing truth with error. Dinosaurs weren't just naked birds. They were as different from birds as we are.

Secondly, God NEVER told Adam and Eve to replenish anything. You're twisting scripture. What you're referencing is a command given by God to Noah and his sons after He'd destroyed life on the earth. What is your supposition that there were pre-Adamic humanoids no the Earth based on? Certainly not scripture. Sounds to me like you're trying to reconcile the vast chasm between creation and evolution. It cannot be done, though you're not the first to try. Every attempt to try and make a neat relationship with the suppositions of secular science with the creation account always creates more questions than it answers.

Finally, according to your logic, God, the ALMIGHTY doesn't ever know what time it is because as far as we know he doesn't wear a watch, right? Because time cannot pass unless you're wearing a watch. And if it can pass then there is NO way one can ever be aware of it, right? Come on, friend, you've got to do better than that. This is GOD we're talking about, do you really think he needs a sun or a moon to know the time? Do you mean to tell me that 24 hours could not have passed without a sun or a moon?

Scripture seems to indicate that time first passed and God set the sun and moon to synchronize with time. The fact that the scripture says "The evening and the morning" for every day in the creation account is proof that it occured in 6 literal 24 hour periods. Don't put human limits of the workings of God.

 

[ChildrenOfLight]

Seems as though you are interspersing truth with error. Dinosaurs weren't just naked birds. They were as different from birds as we are.

Secondly, God NEVER told Adam and Eve to replenish anything. You're twisting scripture. What you're referencing is a command given by God to Noah and his sons after He'd destroyed life on the earth. What is your supposition that there were pre-Adamic humanoids no the Earth based on? Certainly not scripture. Sounds to me like you're trying to reconcile the vast chasm between creation and evolution. It cannot be done, though you're not the first to try. Every attempt to try and make a neat relationship with the suppositions of secular science with the creation account always creates more questions than it answers.

Finally, according to your logic, God, the ALMIGHTY doesn't ever know what time it is because as far as we know he doesn't wear a watch, right? Because time cannot pass unless you're wearing a watch. And if it can pass then there is NO way one can ever be aware of it, right? Come on, friend, you've got to do better than that. This is GOD we're talking about, do you really think he needs a sun or a moon to know the time? Do you mean to tell me that 24 hours could not have passed without a sun or a moon?

Scripture seems to indicate that time first passed and God set the sun and moon to synchronize with time. The fact that the scripture says "The evening and the morning" for every day in the creation account is proof that it occured in 6 literal 24 hour periods. Don't put human limits of the workings of God.

and it is so, that i shall vouch this man! VOUCH!

 

[Doughboy]

Secondly, God NEVER told Adam and Eve to replenish anything.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed the, and God said unto them be fruitful and replenish the earth. :tongue-animated:

 

[Doughboy]

And another thing there couldn't have been a 24 hour long day without the moon and sun, after all the setting of the moon and sun are what create each day.

 

[Boanerges]

And another thing there couldn't have been a 24 hour long day with the moon and sun, after all the setting of the moon and sun are what create each day.

It couldn't have been 24 hour days? Do not sell God short.
God told the sun and the moon how long their orbit cycle would be my friend and not the other way around. In fact He choose the concept of day and night in Gen 1:5., that could be any length He chose for us. Personally since He is the One who gave us a 24 hour day I see no reason for you to say He couldn't have used that same 24 hour cycle in creation, but that is purely speculation either way.

 

[Doughboy]

actuallly I ment to say it couldn't be 24 hours long WITHOUT the moon and sun because without them there are no days

 

[Boanerges]

I am not trying to argue my friend but come to an understanding.
Day and night were created on the first day. They may have not have been seen by man but the Lord saw them:

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[Doughboy]

I am not trying to argue my friend but come to an understanding.
Day and night were created on the first day. They may have not have been seen by man but the Lord saw them:

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

I am not doubting this at all but what isn't mentioned is how long is it from one day to the next? No where is that specifically answered, it just says day one day two and so on, and not only that but doesn't the bible say something like, a day on earth is a 1000 years in heaven?

 

[Boanerges]

I guess my point is that no one really can say definitively.
We can say that when God defined it for man it was a 24 hour period.
DID HE use that same 24 hours or 24,000? No one can safe for sure.

 

[Tyler]

We are clearly set apart from animals because man is made in God's image and animals are not. Genesis 1:26-7 and Genesis 1:20-25 are the Scriptural back-ups.

Also Genesis 1:28-30 shows that man has dominion over the animals and the earth. Why would man have dominion over the animals and not be set apart? If we were not set apart,yes, in theory evolution could have been true. Obviously though, that is not the case.

Genesis 1:25 shows that dogs will produce dogs and cats will produce cats and etc. etc.

Also, in Genesis you see the order in which God creates the earth and its dwellers. If God would have put a "post-human" race on earth why not mention it? Even if God did do so, that would show that God does not know everything which we know is a lie through the Bible. I say this because a "pre-human" race just sounds like God would have been "testing" and "perfecting" His creation. We are talking about the all powerful God here. He does not make mistakes so He would not need a "pre-human" race. While signs such as our bodies healing and adapting to environmental conditions may point to evolution, it was given to us from God. Never did evolution produce such results as all things good are God given.

So as for the whole time issue, I really don't think it matters.

As for "replenishing" the earth, I believe that what God's intentions were was to take care of the earth's environment and the animals on it as well. God is the perfect example of this as he has dominion over everything. He treats all His creation with love and a caring heart. Should we not do the same?

Finally, after every creation God had fulfilled, the Bible states "and God saw that it was good." As you pointed out my friend.

Now just ask yourself this: if the ever knowing, eternal God who is Creator of everything saw His creations as good, why would He have wanted to make "improvements" through evolution? If through creation, God created man, and saw it good, what would be the purpose to "improving" through evolution. I see none.

So no, God did not use evolution.

Evolution is man made through the man Darwin. The Bible states that we cannot serve two lords. So I firmly believe evolution is incorrect as it is a man made idea. We cannot serve man and God (in the sense of what we believe, not in love and services that we are actually supposed to carry out).

Note - KJV used.
Also if I have quoted or said something wrong please forgive me and do point it out. If any offense to any reader has occurred during this reading please forgive me as I am just laying out my opinion on what I know has Scriptural back up.

 

[Doughboy]

Genesis 1:25 shows that dogs will produce dogs and cats will produce cats and etc. etc.

Also, in Genesis you see the order in which God creates the earth and its dwellers. If God would have put a "post-human" race on earth why not mention it? Even if God did do so, that would show that God does not know everything which we know is a lie through the Bible.

Very good points, not just these but all of yours but it is these two I wish to comment on. First that is true God said each animal will produce it's own kind but as we know there were no poodles in the beginning in fact through genetics scientists have proved the wolf to be the first dog but still Dog from Dog your are right so maybe amphibian from fish would be far fetched unless he was speaking mainly on behalf of mammals after all they are the only animals with no real evidence of any evolution other than macroevolution.

Second it does mention God made all the creatures that dwell on the earth but never states what these creatures are, so they would be dinosaurs, mammoths, saber-toothed cats, monkeys and perhaps a pre-human after all we don't know what was created there, perhaps God just never thought of that creation as a human or perhaps it was something he didn't create but was a product of macroevolution in the possible hundreds, thousand or millions of years that day lasted we will never know for sure till we can ask God himself.

 

[Boanerges]

First that is true God said each animal will produce it's own kind but as we know there were no poodles in the beginning in fact through genetics scientists have proved the wolf to be the first dog but still Dog from Dog

I would have to say that we do not know it there were Poodles back then. For them to have been bred today those traits would already have to be present in their DNA.
Wolf- Dog, Dog- Wold. One is wild and one is domestic but both are simply types of dogs. It is obvious there would be some genetic differences but that can be said of Great Danes and Poodles.

 

[Tyler]

Very good points, not just these but all of yours but it is these two I wish to comment on. First that is true God said each animal will produce it's own kind but as we know there were no poodles in the beginning in fact through genetics scientists have proved the wolf to be the first dog but still Dog from Dog your are right so maybe amphibian from fish would be far fetched unless he was speaking mainly on behalf of mammals after all they are the only animals with no real evidence of any evolution other than macroevolution.

Second it does mention God made all the creatures that dwell on the earth but never states what these creatures are, so they would be dinosaurs, mammoths, saber-toothed cats, monkeys and perhaps a pre-human after all we don't know what was created there, perhaps God just never thought of that creation as a human or perhaps it was something he didn't create but was a product of macroevolution in the possible hundreds, thousand or millions of years that day lasted we will never know for sure till we can ask God himself.

Thank you for your replies =]

I do want to say that the "pre-human" term is pretty far fetched. To propose a "pre-human" would be to suggest a sort of "test subject" which would discredit the knowledge of God, especially if you say that He didn't create it and it was a product of macroevolution. God is God. He does not need a "test subject" as He would know how to create a human.


Also more on the idea of a product of macroevolution, something God didn't create, you do have to realize that God did create all of the creatures on this earth even if they do change. Everything on earth is created by God and here because of Him. Nothing on this earth is not a result of His work. Also you have to realize that before Adam and Eve ate the apple, there was no sin. Thus, no corruption to "mess up" God's plan (note I only used "mess up God's plan" for lack of a better phrase. I realize God is all powerful and nothing could mess up His plan).

So if all things were good in His eyes, as we mentioned earlier, why would God want to change them through macroevolution? There was no sin in the time period before Adam and Eve's mistake. The "curse" on earth, or the death of these supposed creatures ("pre-humans") would not have been able to occur until after the curse was brought upon earth due to Adam and Eve's mistake as there was no death before this. Romans 5:12


Also to one of your earlier questions to "replenish" really should not be used as you have to remember that we are reading English. If you really read Hebrew let me know. I am assuming you read in English, in which case we cannot use this as a reliable verse as translations do have error as some words cannot be translated correctly.


Note - KJV used
Also I hope I at least made my points a little more clearer. If there is any confusion still or any mess ups in my citations please let me know.

Yours truly, Tyler.
GBU

 

[Hekuran]

God is not in a rush

Just an observation about God's ways of working, and the assumption that his power is expressed through instant and perfect results.

The Bible gives scant information about the processes of creation. But there is a huge amount about God's plan of salvation. And here we see that it begins with a hint - a glimmer of hope in Genesis 3, a judgement and rescue plan with Noah, then develops substantially with the covenant with Abraham - but still the terms of God's blessing are vague. It takes more shape in the Exodus and the giving of the law, then is put into practice in the era from the judges through to King Solomon. Then the covenant looks very weak indeed as Israel and Judah turn away from God. Promises of Judgement, with signs of hope, Exile and return. Then we see where all this promise has been heading with the birth, life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Church is born. And we have by no means seen the end of God's surprises...

That's a bit slapdash, but you see what I mean

God's plan of salvation that unfolds over thousands of years; each stage in the plan develops on the last, and promises a little more in the future. Presumably God could have dealt with sin death and evil on the spot in the garden of Eden.

It is a human measure of strength and ability to be able to do something quickly - instant success. In revealing our salvation God works in stages over a long period of time. I see no difficulty in accepting the same about his work in creation.

 

[adelle]

24 hours

Many bibles specifically use the word "day" however not only is this not plausible due to the not being a sun/moon until "day" 4 but it is also not the original meaning. In Hebrew (the original language of the OT) the word that we have now translated to day had a different meaning the meaning for the original word in Hebrew is period of time. So 7 periods of time could quite easily fit in with evolution. This means God could (and I believe did) start it and that it is all a part of his plan. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

 

[StopPolloition]

Finally, according to your logic, God, the ALMIGHTY doesn't ever know what time it is because as far as we know he doesn't wear a watch, right? Because time cannot pass unless you're wearing a watch. And if it can pass then there is NO way one can ever be aware of it, right? Come on, friend, you've got to do better than that. This is GOD we're talking about, do you really think he needs a sun or a moon to know the time? Do you mean to tell me that 24 hours could not have passed without a sun or a moon?

Scripture seems to indicate that time first passed and God set the sun and moon to synchronize with time. The fact that the scripture says "The evening and the morning" for every day in the creation account is proof that it occured in 6 literal 24 hour periods. Don't put human limits of the workings of God.

Adelle, here is part of an earlier post where I touched on your objection. I believe the Hebrew word you're referencing is "Yom" which always refers to a 24 hour period bookended by a night and a day. It's often modified to express just which day it is referencing, ie Yom Kippur.

Your theory isnt a new one and is grossly inaccurate. It's simply trying to fit the square peg of evolution into the round hole of creation. God does us the favor of removing doubt for us as to the length of those days by giving us in Exodus 20:11: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." To argue otherwise completely ignores this.

Further the Bible makes clear in Hebrews 11:35: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
Macroevolution or epochal creation directly contradicts this. The earth we now know has undergone changes and still does; but to infer that the cataclysmic events of upheaval, erosion, volcanic activity etc, took eons to transpire would make scripture a lie. These are arguments that contenders of the "Gap Theory" are always impotent to address.

Finally, as children of light, oughtn't we to champion the view which places our God squarely as a worker of miracles rather than mollycoddling the ALMIGHTY with these ideas that make him simply a pusher of dominoes? I'd feign to think that I and atheist evolutionists saw the beginning of the universe the same way.
While I understand and agree with Hekuran's statements about the progressive revelation of the plan of God, I don't think they are substantive proofs that the creation, too, was a gradual process. Even the revelation of God was the product of forethought from eternity past and executed as swiftly as his word was spoken.