Do you want to go to Heaven ?

[Bethel]

-
Listen,

Your body is going to die.
Do you understand this?
Do you under this fact, this reality?
They are going to dig a hole in the ground and put your dead body in it, unless you have it cremated.
Have you decided on which? You should.....as you have no idea when that moment is going to find you.
Paul said...>it is appointed utto man once to die and after this....the judgement.
See that "appointment" with death......you have one...Its already on the calendar.

Now, that day is for your body, but not for your Spirit.
See, your body is just a living dirt container...>Its an EARTH SUIT....that your Spirit exists in, which allows you to experience the "natural realm" or the earth and your all senses.
Your spirit is INSIDE YOUR BODY....Its inside it......and this Spirit, yours, is eternal.....It will never die, and after it leaves your dead body, it is going somewhere to exist, forever.

You have 2 Choices.

1. Heaven
2. Hell....then the Lake of Fire.

Those are DESTINATIONS that are available for your SPIRIT, and its going to one or the other after your body dies.

If you want your Spirit, that is the real you...to go to heaven, you have to become a part of God's Spirit.......As God is A Spirit, and you are a spirit, but you are not a part of God's spirit, until you are born again spiritually, INTO God's Holy Spirit..by GOD's Holy Spirit.
Jesus, who is God......said to you...."you must be born again".... = so that you can exit in heaven forever, as a part of God, as his Born again Spiritually as a "new creation", "in Christ"... ... a Son of God.

Understand, READER......this is a new spiritual birth., created and caused by God's Holy Spirit who produces in you this spiritual birth.
This spiritual birth, is to become "a new creation"..."in Christ", and if if does not happen, you will go to hell, having never had this spiritual birth, as that is where you go if you have never been born again on earth, by God's Holy Spirit.
God does this for all who will believe on Jesus, by FAITH.

You give God your faith in Christ and God will, by His Holy Spirit = BIRTH your Spirit into His own....and that spiritual birth, is to be "born again".

Not by water, and not by works...but by the Spirit of God.

Jesus said...>"you must be born again", if you want to go to Heaven.

However, if you are not interested in going to heaven, then do nothing with Christ and go to hell directly after you die.....just like thousands of water baptized never born again religious people do every day, who were never actually born again.

 

[Hekuran]

Jesus said...>"you must be born again", if you want to go to Heaven.

Jesus said " Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." Jesus never promised entry to heaven to anyone. Christian hope always speaks of resurrection.

 

[Bethel]

Jesus said " Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." Jesus never promised entry to heaven to anyone. Christian hope always speaks of resurrection.

Let me show you something interesting.

When a person is born again......they are "translated from Darkness.....TO LIGHT"
See that?
See ...." TO Light" ? ????

"Translated ".......>"TO LIGHT."........= to become a part of...........THE LIGHT.

See that? That is you, if you are born again, and not just water bapized.

This is why the born again are "The Children of THE LIGHT"........and Jesus is the ""THE LIGHT Of the World".

So, to be born again, is to become a part of THE LIGHT..........This is the Kingdom of God, Hekuran.
So, if you are a Child of the Light, in the Kingdom of God, you are already BECOME a part of God's family......which means you exist already where God is........and that is Heaven.
This is why the New Testament, says of all the born again......>"we are seated in HEAVENLY PLACES......>.in Christ".

To be "in Christ" is to be in "Heavenly Places" as that is where He is........ Hekuran.........and that is where all the born again exist, AS BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY.

Do you want to go there?
Then do what Jesus the LIGHT told you to do, so that you can become a Child of the LIGHT.........= Jesus told you...."YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN" TO ENTER .....HEAVEN....THE KINGDOM OF GOT, AS A CHILD OF THE LIGHT.

 

[Butch5]

-
Listen,

Your body is going to die.
Do you understand this?
Do you under this fact, this reality?
They are going to dig a hole in the ground and put your dead body in it, unless you have it cremated.
Have you decided on which? You should.....as you have no idea when that moment is going to find you.
Paul said...>it is appointed utto man once to die and after this....the judgement.
See that "appointment" with death......you have one...Its already on the calendar.

Now, that day is for your body, but not for your Spirit.
See, your body is just a living dirt container...>Its an EARTH SUIT....that your Spirit exists in, which allows you to experience the "natural realm" or the earth and your all senses.
Your spirit is INSIDE YOUR BODY....Its inside it......and this Spirit, yours, is eternal.....It will never die, and after it leaves your dead body, it is going somewhere to exist, forever.

You have 2 Choices.

1. Heaven
2. Hell....then the Lake of Fire.

Those are DESTINATIONS that are available for your SPIRIT, and its going to one or the other after your body dies.

If you want your Spirit, that is the real you...to go to heaven, you have to become a part of God's Spirit.......As God is A Spirit, and you are a spirit, but you are not a part of God's spirit, until you are born again spiritually, INTO God's Holy Spirit..by GOD's Holy Spirit.
Jesus, who is God......said to you...."you must be born again".... = so that you can exit in heaven forever, as a part of God, as his Born again Spiritually as a "new creation", "in Christ"... ... a Son of God.

Understand, READER......this is a new spiritual birth., created and caused by God's Holy Spirit who produces in you this spiritual birth.
This spiritual birth, is to become "a new creation"..."in Christ", and if if does not happen, you will go to hell, having never had this spiritual birth, as that is where you go if you have never been born again on earth, by God's Holy Spirit.
God does this for all who will believe on Jesus, by FAITH.

You give God your faith in Christ and God will, by His Holy Spirit = BIRTH your Spirit into His own....and that spiritual birth, is to be "born again".

Not by water, and not by works...but by the Spirit of God.

Jesus said...>"you must be born again", if you want to go to Heaven.

However, if you are not interested in going to heaven, then do nothing with Christ and go to hell directly after you die.....just like thousands of water baptized never born again religious people do every day, who were never actually born again.

Where do you find a teaching in Scripture that people go to Heaven? Where do you find a teaching people have a spirit that lives on after death? Where do you find a teaching that man "IS" a spirit? Where in Scriputre do you find that man is eternal or immortal?

 

[Dave M]

Jesus never promised entry to heaven to anyone. Christian hope always speaks of resurrection.

my understanding of the bible, teaches when we die our souls/spirit goes to heaven, I do agree about the resurrection. We see in this scripture we have the souls are in heaven, and then are resurrected. Far to many examples in the bible of people realizing what is going on to dismiss it as figurative language IMO, but I know some do, but I do not.

Rev 20
4. Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 6
9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Rev 7
9, After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
10. And they cried out in a loud voice:“Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
11, And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

 

[Butch5]

my understanding of the bible, teaches when we die our souls/spirit goes to heaven, I do agree about the resurrection. We see in this scripture we have the souls are in heaven, and then are resurrected. Far to many examples in the bible of people realizing what is going on to dismiss it as figurative language IMO, but I know some do, but I do not.

Rev 20
4. Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 6
9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Rev 7
9, After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
10. And they cried out in a loud voice:“Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
11, And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Hi Dave, how do future events predict the present?

 

[Dave M]

John 14:1-31
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”

Jesus is telling them in heaven he has a place for them,

 

[Dave M]

Hi Dave, how do future events predict the present?

Hi Butch
do not understand the question

 

[Bethel]

Where do you find a teaching in Scripture that people go to Heaven? Where do you find a teaching people have a spirit that lives on after death? Where do you find a teaching that man "IS" a spirit? Where in Scriputre do you find that man is eternal or immortal?

Where is God Located?
Where is Jesus Located?
Do you know?

"Heaven".

What did Paul say ?

"it is far better to die and be with Christ"
"absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".

Where is the Lord?

One more..

The born again are "seated in HEAVENLY PLACES......>"in Christ".

Where is Christ? ?????
So, that is where you go, when you are born again, and die........and in fact, the born again are "ONE WITH GOD"< right now.........so........where is God?

= HEAVEN.

 

[Butch5]

Where is God Located?
Where is Jesus Located?
Do you know?

"Heaven".

What did Paul say ?

"it is far better to die and be with Christ"
"absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".

Where is the Lord?

One more..

The born again are "seated in HEAVENLY PLACES......>"in Christ".

Where is Christ? ?????
So, that is where you go, when you are born again, and die........and in fact, the born again are "ONE WITH GOD"< right now.........so........where is God?

= HEAVEN.

Actually, Paul didn't say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said it was his desire. He was stating a desire not a fact. Also, if you look at the entire passage Paul is talking about the Resureection not a state of the dead. What you've presented here is an inference. It isn't teaching from the Bible. I asked where you found a teaching the says people go to Heaven. There is none.

Actually, Paul didnt say believers were seated in Heavenly places. That would be impossible since you and I are present on earth. Paul actually used an adjective. Literally it says, seated in the heavenlies. However, it's in the neuter gender so it should read heavenly things not heavenly places.

Stop and think about it. If the ultimate goal of man is to go to Heaven shouldn't we find it plastered all over the Bible? Yet we don't find a single verse. Paul teaches salvation by faith and we see it all over his writings. Surely if the goal of man was to go to Heaven we'd have at least one verse.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch
do not understand the question

Revelation speaks of future events. How does anything in future tell us what happens now? For instance, the souls under the altar. Maybe at some future time there will be souls under an alter. But, how does that prove they are there today?

Let give an example. A student enters medical school. He plans to study for many years and get several degrees to be a world renown doctor. He may achieve that. But, that doesn't prove that he's a world renown doctor today

 

[Dave M]

For instance, the souls under the altar. Maybe at some future time there will be souls under an alter. But, how does that prove they are there today?

Hey Butch I always enjoy and appreciate your post, even if I do not agree with them, they always make me think in another direction.

For me it is about faith, I have no reason to believe it is different for current believers then it is for future believers. And since there are so many references in the bible about believers in heaven in the future, I have no reason to think that it would be different fin current times.

Revelation 6
9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?

Here is a quick read you may find interesting

By Randy Alcorn
December 18, 2009
"When [the Lamb] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?' Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed" (Revelation 6:9-11).

1. When these people died on Earth, they relocated to Heaven (v. 9).

2. These people in Heaven were the same ones killed for Christ while on Earth (v. 9). This demonstrates direct continuity between our identity on Earth and our identity in Heaven. The martyrs' personal history extends directly back to their lives on Earth. Those in the intermediate Heaven are not different people; they are the same people relocated—"righteous men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23).

3. People in Heaven will be remembered for their lives on Earth. These were known and identified as ones slain "because of…the testimony they had maintained" (v. 9).

4. "They called out" (v. 10) means they are able to express themselves audibly. This could suggest they exist in physical form, with vocal cords or other tangible means to express themselves.

5. People in the intermediate Heaven can raise their voices (v. 10). This indicates that they are rational, communicative, and emotional—even passionate—beings, like people on Earth.

6. They called out in "a loud voice," not "loud voices." Individuals speaking with one voice indicate that Heaven is a place of unity and shared perspective.

7. The martyrs are fully conscious, rational, and aware of each other, God, and the situation on Earth.

8. They ask God to intervene on Earth and to act on their behalf: "How long…until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"(v. 10).

9. Those in Heaven are free to ask God questions, which means they have an audience with God. It also means they need to learn. In Heaven, people desire understanding and pursue it.

10. People in the intermediate Heaven know what's happening on Earth (v. 10). The martyrs know enough to realize that those who killed them have not yet been judged.

11. Heaven dwellers have a deep concern for justice and retribution (v. 10). When we go to Heaven, we won't adopt a passive disinterest in what happens on the earth. On the contrary, our concerns will be more passionate and our thirst for justice greater. Neither God nor we will be satisfied until his enemies are judged, our bodies raised, sin and Satan defeated, Earth restored, and Christ exalted over all.

12. The martyrs clearly remember their lives on Earth (v. 10). They remember at least some of the bad things from earth, since they even remember that they were murdered. (Heaven's joys are not rooted in ignorance, but perspective.)

13. The martyrs in Heaven pray for judgment on their persecutors who are still at work hurting others. They are acting in solidarity with, and in effect interceding for, the suffering saints on Earth. This suggests that saints in Heaven are both seeing and praying for saints on Earth.

14. Those in Heaven see God's attributes ("Sovereign…holy and true") in a way that makes his judgment of sin more understandable.

15. Those in Heaven are distinct individuals: "Then each of them was given a white robe" (v. 11). There isn't one merged identity (ala Nirvana) that obliterates uniqueness, but a distinct "each of them."

16. The martyrs' wearing white robes suggests the possibility of actual physical forms, because disembodied spirits presumably don't wear robes. The robes may well have symbolic meaning, but it doesn't mean they couldn't also be physical. The martyrs appear to have physical forms that John could actually see.

17. God answers their question (v. 11), indicating communication and process in Heaven. It also demonstrates that we won't know everything in Heaven—if we did, we would have no questions. The martyrs knew more after God answered their question than before they asked it. There is learning in the present Heaven.

18. God promises to fulfill the martyrs' requests, but says they will have to "wait a little longer" (v. 11). Those in the intermediate Heaven live in anticipation of the future fulfillment of God's promises. Unlike the eternal Heaven—where there will be no more sin, Curse, or suffering on the New Earth (Revelation 21:4)—the present Heaven coexists with and watches over an Earth under sin, the Curse, and suffering.

19. There is time in the intermediate Heaven (vv. 10-11). The white-robed martyrs ask God a time-dependent question: "How long, Sovereign Lord…until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" (v. 10). They are aware of time's passing and are eager for the coming day of the Lord's judgment. God answers that they must "wait a little longer" until certain events transpire on Earth. Waiting requires the passing of time. (This seems to refute the "no time in Heaven/ instantaneous resurrection" theory, as well as soul sleep.)

20. The people of God in Heaven have a strong familial connection with those on Earth, who are called their "fellow servants and brothers" (v. 11). We share the same Father, "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named" (Ephesians 3:15, ESV). There is not a wall of separation within the bride of Christ. We are one family with those who've gone to Heaven ahead of us. After we go to Heaven, we'll still be one family with those yet on Earth. These verses demonstrate a vital connection between the events and people in Heaven and the events and people on Earth.

21. Our sovereign God knows down to the last detail all that is happening and will happen on Earth (v. 11), including every drop of blood shed and every bit of suffering undergone by his children. Voice of the Martyrs estimates that more than 150,000 people die for Christ each year, an average of more than four hundred per day. God knows the name and story of each one. He knows exactly how many martyrs there will be, and he is prepared to return and set up his Kingdom when the final martyr dies.

 

[Butch5]

Hey Butch I always enjoy and appreciate your post, even if I do not agree with them, they always make me think in another direction.

For me it is about faith, I have no reason to believe it is different for current believers then it is for future believers. And since there are so many references in the bible about believers in heaven in the future, I have no reason to think that it would be different fin current times.

Revelation 6
9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?

Here is a quick read you may find interesting

By Randy Alcorn
December 18, 2009
"When [the Lamb] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?' Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed" (Revelation 6:9-11).

1. When these people died on Earth, they relocated to Heaven (v. 9).

2. These people in Heaven were the same ones killed for Christ while on Earth (v. 9). This demonstrates direct continuity between our identity on Earth and our identity in Heaven. The martyrs' personal history extends directly back to their lives on Earth. Those in the intermediate Heaven are not different people; they are the same people relocated—"righteous men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23).

3. People in Heaven will be remembered for their lives on Earth. These were known and identified as ones slain "because of…the testimony they had maintained" (v. 9).

4. "They called out" (v. 10) means they are able to express themselves audibly. This could suggest they exist in physical form, with vocal cords or other tangible means to express themselves.

5. People in the intermediate Heaven can raise their voices (v. 10). This indicates that they are rational, communicative, and emotional—even passionate—beings, like people on Earth.

6. They called out in "a loud voice," not "loud voices." Individuals speaking with one voice indicate that Heaven is a place of unity and shared perspective.

7. The martyrs are fully conscious, rational, and aware of each other, God, and the situation on Earth.

8. They ask God to intervene on Earth and to act on their behalf: "How long…until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"(v. 10).

9. Those in Heaven are free to ask God questions, which means they have an audience with God. It also means they need to learn. In Heaven, people desire understanding and pursue it.

10. People in the intermediate Heaven know what's happening on Earth (v. 10). The martyrs know enough to realize that those who killed them have not yet been judged.

11. Heaven dwellers have a deep concern for justice and retribution (v. 10). When we go to Heaven, we won't adopt a passive disinterest in what happens on the earth. On the contrary, our concerns will be more passionate and our thirst for justice greater. Neither God nor we will be satisfied until his enemies are judged, our bodies raised, sin and Satan defeated, Earth restored, and Christ exalted over all.

12. The martyrs clearly remember their lives on Earth (v. 10). They remember at least some of the bad things from earth, since they even remember that they were murdered. (Heaven's joys are not rooted in ignorance, but perspective.)

13. The martyrs in Heaven pray for judgment on their persecutors who are still at work hurting others. They are acting in solidarity with, and in effect interceding for, the suffering saints on Earth. This suggests that saints in Heaven are both seeing and praying for saints on Earth.

14. Those in Heaven see God's attributes ("Sovereign…holy and true") in a way that makes his judgment of sin more understandable.

15. Those in Heaven are distinct individuals: "Then each of them was given a white robe" (v. 11). There isn't one merged identity (ala Nirvana) that obliterates uniqueness, but a distinct "each of them."

16. The martyrs' wearing white robes suggests the possibility of actual physical forms, because disembodied spirits presumably don't wear robes. The robes may well have symbolic meaning, but it doesn't mean they couldn't also be physical. The martyrs appear to have physical forms that John could actually see.

17. God answers their question (v. 11), indicating communication and process in Heaven. It also demonstrates that we won't know everything in Heaven—if we did, we would have no questions. The martyrs knew more after God answered their question than before they asked it. There is learning in the present Heaven.

18. God promises to fulfill the martyrs' requests, but says they will have to "wait a little longer" (v. 11). Those in the intermediate Heaven live in anticipation of the future fulfillment of God's promises. Unlike the eternal Heaven—where there will be no more sin, Curse, or suffering on the New Earth (Revelation 21:4)—the present Heaven coexists with and watches over an Earth under sin, the Curse, and suffering.

19. There is time in the intermediate Heaven (vv. 10-11). The white-robed martyrs ask God a time-dependent question: "How long, Sovereign Lord…until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" (v. 10). They are aware of time's passing and are eager for the coming day of the Lord's judgment. God answers that they must "wait a little longer" until certain events transpire on Earth. Waiting requires the passing of time. (This seems to refute the "no time in Heaven/ instantaneous resurrection" theory, as well as soul sleep.)

20. The people of God in Heaven have a strong familial connection with those on Earth, who are called their "fellow servants and brothers" (v. 11). We share the same Father, "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named" (Ephesians 3:15, ESV). There is not a wall of separation within the bride of Christ. We are one family with those who've gone to Heaven ahead of us. After we go to Heaven, we'll still be one family with those yet on Earth. These verses demonstrate a vital connection between the events and people in Heaven and the events and people on Earth.

21. Our sovereign God knows down to the last detail all that is happening and will happen on Earth (v. 11), including every drop of blood shed and every bit of suffering undergone by his children. Voice of the Martyrs estimates that more than 150,000 people die for Christ each year, an average of more than four hundred per day. God knows the name and story of each one. He knows exactly how many martyrs there will be, and he is prepared to return and set up his Kingdom when the final martyr dies.

Here are my thoughts. Revelation is an apocalyptic book that is full of symbolism. In it Jesus is portrayed as a lamb that had been slain and had 7 eyes. Death and Hades, which are not living beings, are depicted as riding horses. The city of Babylon, which isn't a living being, is depicted as a *****. Gehenna is depicted as a lake of fire. There is symbolism throughout the book. Given all of the symbolism I'd hesitate to think the souls under the alter is literal. Some food for thought, why are they inder the alter? Why not just say the martyrs in Heaven? Unless there is symbolic significance to them being under the alter.

Some additional thoughts would be that if we follow the word soul through the Scriptures we find that a soul requires a body, yet the martyrs bodies had long decayed. One has to wonder how they could literally be in Heaven without bodies.

 

[Butch5]

Here's some food for thought. If the goal of this life is to go to Heaven and be with the Lord, why don't we find a single passage of Scripture that says that? We have the writings and teaching of Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament. Paul wrote much of the New Testament to Churches. How come we don't find a single statement from him saying to someone, when you get to Heaven, xyz? Or, when you're in Heaven with the Lord, xyz? We have the teachings of the other apostles, why no such statements? We have Jesus' own words, why no such statement? Seriously! If that's the goal of this life why don't we ha eva single passage of Scripture?

While we have no Scripture telling us that people go to Heaven, we do have Jesus' own words when He told His apostles He was going away.

When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Jesus Foretells Peter's Denial Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward.” Peter said to him, “Lord, why can I not follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.” Jesus answered, “Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the rooster will not crow till you have denied me three times.

Notice Jesus told them that where He was going they could come. He said where He was going they could not follow Him, but would follow later. So how would they follow Him later? He explains that as we read on.

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

If He goes away He will return so that they can be where He is. They couldn't go where He was going so He would come back so that they could once again follow Him.

The apostle John writing about 60 years after Jesus' Ascension wrote these words.

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

It's a common belief that when Jesus ascended He took a bunch of people from a place called Abraham's bosom to Heaven, yet John writing 60 years later says that no one has ascended to Heaven except Jesus. If as many claim people go to Heaven when they die, how can it be that 60 after Jesus' ascension no one else has gone? It would appear from these Scriptures that people don't go to Heaven when they die. That would explain the lack of reference to it in Scripture.

 

[Dave M]

Here's some food for thought. If the goal of this life is to go to Heaven and be with the Lord, why don't we find a single passage of Scripture that says that?

The resurrection is the goal, I thought we all agree on that? yet scripture tells us Paul went to heaven, Jesus says we have a dwelling place in heaven, there is plenty of scripture that says we go to heaven. all the people that killed in the tribulation appear in heaven, do you think they get to go to heaven and you do not?

While we have no Scripture telling us that people go to Heaven, we do have Jesus' own words when He told His apostles He was going away.

Yet in Jesus own words he tells the thief on the cross, sounds like heaven to me
Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Jesus Foretells Peter's Denial Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward.” Peter said to him, “Lord, why can I not follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.” Jesus answered, “Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the rooster will not crow till you have denied me three times.

Notice Jesus told them that where He was going they could come. He said where He was going they could not follow Him, but would follow later. So how would they follow Him later? He explains that as we read on.

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

If He goes away He will return so that they can be where He is. They couldn't go where He was going so He would come back so that they could once again follow Him.

The apostle John writing about 60 years after Jesus' Ascension wrote these words.

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

when Jesus says he is going you can not come, they can not come because they are alive, and have a job to do. Then Jesus says he will come back and Take them, meaning when we die he will come and take us to heaven to is my understanding

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God;a believe in Me as well.
2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going.c”

seems very clear that the fathers house is heaven, the room is a dwelling place in heaven Jesus has prepared for his believers. The way is to believe in Jesus.


Scripture time after time says we are in heaven or are going to heaven, Paul visited heaven, John had visions of heaven, Jesus Promised the thief on the cross he would be with him in heaven.

Jesus tells his disciples he is going to prepare a place for them in heaven.

For me it is just to much evidence to over look heaven as not a real place our spirits/souls go, since that is what scripture says, not only does scripture say we go to heaven when we die, it also says we have consciousnesses

Revelation 6
9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?

 

[Dave M]

?The Bible teaches that sometimes humans are allowed to see into Heaven. When Stephen was being stoned because of his faith in Christ, he gazed into Heaven: “Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God’” (Acts 7:55-56). Scripture tells us not that Stephen dreamed this, but that he actually saw it."

"The prophet Elisha asked God to give his servant, Gehazi, a glimpse of the invisible realm. He prayed, “‘O Lord, open his eyes so he may see.’ Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha” (2 Kings 6:17). Acts 7 and 2 Kings 6 are narrative accounts, historical in nature, not apocalyptic or parabolic literature. The text is clear that Stephen and Gehazi saw real things."

"If we look at Scripture, we’ll see considerable evidence that the present Heaven has physical properties. We’re told there are scrolls in Heaven, elders who have faces, martyrs who wear clothes, and even people with palm branches in their hands. There are musical instruments in the present Heaven, horses coming into and out of Heaven, and an eagle flying overhead in Heaven."

Randy Alcorn

 

[Bethel]

Actually, Paul didn't say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said it was his desire. He was stating a desire not a fact.

Nice try.

So, if Paul is talking about leaving this WORLD, because it is "far better to be with Christ'.........then implicit in this desire is the understanding that Paul is talking about "being with Christ".

So, where is Christ?

He's in Heaven.

So, is this really that difficult for you to comprehend?
I dont think it is... i think that you have just been trained to think in the wrong direction, regarding "heaven".
Blame not the bible, instead blame your denomination and your commentaries for lying to you.

 

[Butch5]

Nice try.

So, if Paul is talking about leaving this WORLD, because it is "far better to be with Christ'.........then implicit in this desire is the understanding that Paul is talking about "being with Christ".

So, where is Christ?

He's in Heaven.

So, is this really that difficult for you to comprehend?
I dont think it is... i think that you have just been trained to think in the wrong direction, regarding "heaven".
Blame not the bible, instead blame your denomination and your commentaries for lying to you.

There's no need for condescension. I assure you I am quite capable of comprehending what you're saying.

What you're claiming are inferences. Again, do you have clear teaching? Inferences can be wrong.

Again, Paul was writing of the Resurrection. That's the context if we read the entire passage instead of just one sentence. Since this is about the Resurrection, where will Christ be? The Resurrection takes place when Christ returns, thus He will he on earth, not in Heaven.

We know that Paul didn't mean what you think he meant because Paul didn't believe that Christians go to Heaven when they die. When some of the Corithians were doubting the resurrection Paul wrote to them saying,

And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Notice what Paul said here. If there is no resurrection, those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they were in Heaven. The only option Paul holds out for these dead believers is the resurrection. Either they're resurrected or they've perished.

In order to accept your claim we have to assume that the apostle Paul was wrong and didnt know what he was talking about. I tend to believe he was correct and the view held by many, that people go to Heaven, is wrong.

 

[Bethel]

In order to accept your claim we have to assume that the apostle Paul was wrong and didnt know what he was talking about. I tend to believe he was correct and the view held by many, that people go to Heaven, is wrong.

Ok, well, i wonder where you are going when you die?
I have an idea.

John 3:36.

So, is that verse talking to you?

Also, Paul was stoned to death, and went to heaven, and saw it ...... later he wrote about this event.
You can read that, and disgree with that also.. fi that is your preference.

Im not certain what denomination you are, as Catholic and Protestant mainline denominations would not create a person's theology to state that God's Children, dont go to heaven, eventually.

So, you are one of the denoms that mainline Protestant churches refer to as a "cult".....Or, you are "out there" somewhere theologically, not connected to any church.
But i doubt that.....i think you are what i described, as a "cult".

Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected Bodily, and that He literally died on the Cross?

 

[Butch5]

Ok, well, i wonder where you are going when you die?
I have an idea.

John 3:36.

So, is that verse talking to you?

Also, Paul was stoned to death, and went to heaven, and saw it ...... later he wrote about this event.
You can read that, and disgree with that also.. fi that is your preference.

Im not certain what denomination you are, as Catholic and Protestant mainline denominations would not create a person's theology to state that God's Children, dont go to heaven, eventually.

So, you are one of the denoms that mainline Protestant churches refer to as a "cult".....Or, you are "out there" somewhere theologically, not connected to any church.
But i doubt that.....i think you are what i described, as a "cult".

Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected Bodily, and that He literally died on the Cross?

You've completely ignore the evidence I presented against your position. I gave you the words of Paul himself. He said of those believers if there is no resurrection they had perished. This shows clearly that your understanding of 2 Cor. 5:8 is incorrect. Paul didn't believe that Christian's went to Heaven when they died. Using his words doesn't support the claim that you made.

That you're using ad hominems suggests to me that you don't have any real support for this claim. As I said before, there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die. That's actually a concept that came into Christianity from Greek Philosophy.