Doctrine of Inclusion

[kindsfater]

Could you please explain what you mean in regards to the flesh affecting the effectiveness of the mind and logic?

Sure! We all live this temporary life here on earth in the flesh. The flesh is full of sin. Sin can include, but is not limited to, lust, anger, worry, pride, etc. Flesh loves itself and doesn't like it when it is challenged by the Truth which is found in God's Word, it will rebel against it. In the flesh we often take pride in many things; our appreance, our material wealth, even our intellect. Now, these things that we take pride in are in fact temporal in nature. Our bodies, our belongings, even our mind will deteriorate in time and fail us sooner or later. The Lord, on the other hand, is eternal and will never change!

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)

Trying, in the flesh, to understand God and all His ways (with our human's mind, logic, intellect and wisdom) can often times bring us frustration because of the nature of the Lord which can be found in His Word. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, He Himself said:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

What are we putting our faith in? Our limited, temporal flesh which will and does fail us sooner or later or the never-changing, eternal Lord who never fails us? Our prideful flesh would love nothing more than for us to try to analyze God and His word to the point of distraction but God's Word says:

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)


It would seem that the answer you are giving to these important questions is to not ask questions.

No sir, I'm not.


Instead ask God to change my thinking

No sir, ask God to change your heart.


[B]If I am incorrect and what you are saying is just ask that God reveal the answers to the above questions[/B]

Yes sir, that's it! Seek the Lord on these matters keeping in mind that there are some things which we in this life will not be privy to for His Word says:

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

An example of information we are not privy to would be the exact time of Christ's return:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."(Matthew 36:24)


I believe that others before me answered your intial questions better than I could have. The main purpose of my initial post was to encourage you, anon, to seek wisdom beyond ours...Gods. This can be done thru prayer and the reading of His Word. There comes a point when we decide what we are putting our faith in...the temporal things of this world (ex. the flesh, job, money, etc.) or the eternal Lord who is not of this world.


I want to encourage you with one last verse from God's Word. If you are truly searching for answers, try praying God's Word back to Him. His Word says:

'Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.' (Jeremiah 33:1)

Man! I love that verse! I hope that I have somehow been of help because this is my heart's desire: to see you come to know and trust in the Lord alone. Don't trust in the flesh because it's more interested in preserving itself than your spirit-man's walk with the Lord.


If I have caused you more confusion or doubt, please forgive me because this was not my intent. I know that you know, because you read the Bible, that confusion and doubt are not of the Lord. I do pray that God will open the eyes of your heart, anon! God bless you brother!


Whelp, that's pretty much all I have to offer here! God bless you in your search of Him and the Truth of His Word!

In His Love

 

[Jesuslovesu]

Well it took me awhile to answer..sorry about that...I dont have a answer for you than what I already posted about people who have not heard. See one thing that hasnt been mentioned is that we are to GO and preach the word the Good News to give everyone the chance to know Christ.
Maybe its the lack of schooling I have I dont know but I may have a question or two (or ten lol) but I dont let it over take my thinking.. I am waiting for them..sometimes the answer is right away sometimes not so much...
People dont often think of this but you can be legalistic without even being a follower of Christ.
I am still going to read the thread but at this point I dont think I can help any further with my answers .. If I see the need to say something I will but at this point I am just gonna be a reader.
God Bless you brother Please feel free to ask the questions!
Joyfully ~ Jlu
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

[anonymous.]

Thank you all again. I think I have discovered that the easiest way to get answers is to make the questions as simple as possible.

I asked....

Is it necessary to accept Christ to be saved?

the answer was simply...

1. Yes

I then asked...

Since we have to accept christ to be saved, what becomes of people who have not known of christ to accept him?
Are people who are completely ignorant of the message of salvation through christ exempted from this requirement?

to which was answered...

"Now when it comes to people who have not heard the Gospel of Christ I think that grace is there."
Matthew 18:14
Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

GOD will take care of the lost children and the innocent.

With these statements seeming to contradict eachother the compromise might go something like this.....

Is it necessary to accept Christ to be saved?

If one has heard the message of Christ then the answer is Yes, however if not then God's grace will intervene and they will not be damned to an eternity in hell for something they had no control over.....

Is this what anyone one here believes?

A simple yes or no would be sufficient to satisfy my curiousity.

 

[Jesuslovesu]

yes I believe that...question though... Am I right? ... should I take the chance..? or get out there and GO...?

(I know a little more than yes or no lol)

 

[anonymous.]

Thank you for your answer.

Inevitably in my mind most answers result in more questions. I believe I already understand what your response to the next question may be but i will ask anyway just to state the question.

If people who have not heard the Gospel are indeed exempt from the requirements of Romans 10:9-10 since they have not heard of a christ to accept, doesnt it seem detrimental and almost cruel to tell them since they would then be accountable to that knowledge of a theory they may not be able to accept and thus damned to hell?

I often wonder if people assume that hearing a theory equates to believing that theory. I assure you it does not.

JLU you said yourself...

"You are asking me to try and see it as if someone is telling me other than what i know as the truth I can not do that though because Christ is the Truth."

What of people of other faiths who hold the same ideal about their own faith. They cant change their belief and deny the god they have faithfully served all their life because, just like you, they beleive their faith to be the true faith of the true God.

I would assume that the answer to this question would be I tell them of the Gospel because the last chapters of Matthew and Mark tell me to so I faithfully obey the word of God.

My questions to that are.....

Is my assumption correct as to why you feel the need to "Go ye?"
Do you understand my dilemma with this issue?
Have you ever asked, or been asked these questions before?
If so, what resolution did you arrive at?

Thank you again for all of your help.

 

[Chad]

Anonymous,

There are some things that GOD made very clear and simple for *all* people to understand.

1. Without Christ, we are all damned to hell for eternity

2. Without freedom, love (choice) is not natural. With freedom (required for sincere love/choice) comes the risk. Some people choose to disbelieve. GOD knows the hearts of men and so therefore it is between them and GOD if they believe or not, if they received the Good News of Christ (Gospels) or not.

"What of people of other faiths who hold the same ideal about their own faith. They cant change their belief and deny the god they have faithfully served all their life because, just like you, they beleive their faith to be the true faith of the true God."

They have the choice to receive Truth or not. Here is what GOD says:

Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

When we preach the Gospel to the lost, it cuts through their hearts like a sharp sword. GOD says so and it is true. What about reaching out to the lost again?

Luke 17:6
So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you

This is an excellent example by Jesus Christ our Savior

The Parable of the Sower Explained

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

3. We are all created to worship.

4. We are commanded to reach out to the lost and preach the Truth (Bible) whether or not they accept. That is their freedom, choice and destiny according to what they choose to do. Accept or deny Jesus Christ as Savior.

5. The evidence of the Bible being true and Christ as Savior is more than plenty abundant. GOD made it so and more evidence is revealed as more archeologists find more evidence (again).

People will hate GOD or deny the Truth. That is not uncommon especially nowadays but if they refuse to accept the Truth when it is given to them, that is their problem and sadly their choice. You cannot force it into them nor does GOD do that to us as well. Love has to have freedom of choice which GOD provided to us. Also, GOD created us in His image and likeness. Our conscienceness knows of GOD and we cannot deny it at all.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Romans 9:1
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

I declare myself a witness to this one. I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit and there is no denying this whatsoever. Even a fool could not deny the presence of the Holy Spirit in him.

John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

 

[anonymous.]

Chad I appreciate the passion and diligence of your answers.

Although I understand how they relate to the overall topic being discussed in the thread I dont really understand how they relate to the questions of the last post.

I think its clear from your response that there is a little variety in the views that some members have on these issues.

If you would like to clarify in regards to the questions themselves here they are again.

Is my assumption (about the scriptures in Matt & Mark) correct as to why you feel the need to "Go ye?"
Do you understand my dilemma with this issue?
Have you ever asked, or been asked these questions before?
If so, what resolution did you arrive at?

If my interpretation of your post is correct you believe that all people must accept christ to avoid hell. If I am correct then these questions may not be for you. They were originally directed at those who believe.....

If one has heard the message of Christ then the answer is Yes, however if not then God's grace will intervene and they will not be damned to an eternity in hell for something they had no control over.....

either way... Thanks again.

 

[Chad]

Is my assumption (about the scriptures in Matt & Mark) correct as to why you feel the need to "Go ye?"
Do you understand my dilemma with this issue?
Have you ever asked, or been asked these questions before?
If so, what resolution did you arrive at?

"Is my assumption (about the scriptures in Matt & Mark) correct as to why you feel the need to "Go ye?" "

Explain this. I am not 100% undertanding what you mean. In case I do, I feel the need to go yes to Truth because it is what it is, Truth. Proven by GOD and my own experience with Him.

"Do you understand my dilemma with this issue?"

Yes

"Have you ever asked, or been asked these questions before?
If so, what resolution did you arrive at?"

I arrived at the Holy Scripture and nothing can be used higher than that. Whether or not I have been asked the question (which I have) it doesn't matter either way. The answer is found in the Holy Bible for any questions any man or woman may have.

 

[anonymous.]

Those answers were quite sufficient then.

"Explain this. I am not 100% undertanding what you mean. In case I do, I feel the need to go yes to Truth because it is what it is, Truth. Proven by GOD and my own experience with Him.
"

I dont see the need for explanation. I think youve got it just as I meant it. That answers the question completely.

"Have you ever asked, or been asked these questions before?
If so, what resolution did you arrive at?"

I arrived at the Holy Scripture and nothing can be used higher than that. Whether or not I have been asked the question (which I have) it doesn't matter either way. The answer is found in the Holy Bible for any questions any man or woman may have.

This answers this question as to what you believe as well.

Thanks

 

[Coconut]

Jesus Christ.... That word has so many wonderful meanings and ideas associated with it in my mind..... Unfortunately for myself, due to others teachings about him it also has many negative connotations.....

I believe that there was a Jesus. I am not sure if I interpret his being a child of God in the way that Christianity teaches. (theres the rub for this is fundamental to the salvation that christianity teaches.)

I am constantly seeking God and find myself at an impasse regarding christianity because of the issues being discussed on this post.

It is very sad that for all your philosophical thought and reasoning, and obvious knowledge, none of it has brought you any closer to the understanding that Jesus Christ is indeed the only way to Heaven, especially having noted that you said "you read the Bible more than anyone"

Joh 8:23 Jesus said to them, "You are from below, I am from above. You are of this world, but I am not of this world. That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."


Col 2:3 I pray that their hearts may be encouraged by all the riches that come from a complete understanding of the full knowledge of Christ, who is the secret of God.
In Jesus are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
I say this so that no one will mislead you with nice-sounding rhetoric.
For although I am absent in body, I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see how stable you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.
So then, just as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to live in him.
For you have been rooted in him and are being built up and strengthened in the faith, just as you were taught, while you overflow with thanksgiving.
See to it that no one enslaves you through philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in Jesus the whole fullness of God lives in bodily form.

The answers you seek are in the Book (the 'God logic' one) ...and can not be sufficiently answered with mans logic, no matter how many hours or lifetimes you or anyone else spends trying.

This thread is closed. (unless Chad chooses to readdress it, all discourse of trying to find the way to God thru vain philosophy ends here also)