Does the Holy Spirit immediately come to indwell a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as personal Saviour?

[Br. Bear]

Does the Holy Spirit immediately come to indwell a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior


this question has been asked by many.

What are your views and what Scripture is there to substantiate your views?


Bless you all ....><>

 

[complete]

'In Whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:13-14)

Praise God!

 

[B-A-C]

A tricky question:

Most Pentecostal denominations believe there are two separate events.
The "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit which happens immediately at the instant of Salvation.

..and then the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, which could happen years later, ( or even seconds later )

Acts 1:3; To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 1:4; Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
Acts 1:5; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Jesus was speaking to the apostles here. Were they not saved before this conversation? ...and yet Jesus says you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit at some point in the future.

Acts 1:13; When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.
Acts 1:14; These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Acts 1:15; At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,

Then we have the upper room, with about 120 people there, including Mary and the apostles. Were none of these people saved?

Acts 2:2; And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3; And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

... the apostles had followed Jesus for 3 years, and yet they don't get baptized in the Holy Spirit until this chapter. Were they not saved before this day?

Acts 8:14; Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
Acts 8:15; who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:17; Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

These were obviously believers, who had already been baptized ( in the name of the Lord ), but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. This is 6 chapters after Acts 2.
Then we have Cornelius.

Acts 10:1; Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Acts 10:2; a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Acts 10:3; About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!"

It seems he is also a believer, and had been for a while. But yet he doesn't get baptized in the Holy Spirit until....

Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

We also have the disciples at Ephesus.

Acts 19:1; It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2; He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3; And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4; Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19:7; There were in all about twelve men.

They didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. Again, obviously they were believers, who had already been baptized in water. ( John's baptism )
But yet they had never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit until this moment. They could have believers for years before this time.

John the baptist, said water baptism, and the Holy Spirit baptism were two different things.

Matt 3:11; "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Luke 3:16; John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

There is a verse that says we don't receive the Holy Spirit unless we specifically ask for it.

Luke 11:13; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

There is another verses that says you must obey God to receive it.

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Finally we have Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus. Now He was a Pharisee, he did believe in God, but not Jesus so much before this trip.
It was three days later when received Damascus.

Acts 9:9; And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Acts 9:17; So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Why didn't Paul receive the Holy Spirit at the moment he met Jesus on the road to Damascus?

In fact, I don't see a single place in the Bible... where the phrase "received the baptism of the Holy Spirit" happens to anyone who just got saved at that instant.
Now I do believe they could happen a few seconds within each other. But it's obvious in the Bible, they are two separate events.

 

[B-A-C]

ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Not the best translation. These are more accurate.

Ephesians 1:13
(AMPC) In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.
(GNB) And you also became God's people when you heard the true message, the Good News that brought you salvation. You believed in Christ, and God put his stamp of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit he had promised.
(NIrV) You also became believers in Christ. That happened when you heard the message of truth. It was the good news about how you could be saved. When you believed, he marked you with a seal. The seal is the Holy Spirit that he promised.
(NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
(NLT) And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

(Greek NT) ἐν ᾧ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀκούσαντες τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς σωτηρίας ὑμῶν, ἐν ᾧ καὶ πιστεύσαντες ἐσφραγίσθητε τῷ Πνεύματι τῆς ἐπαγγελίας τῷ ῾Αγίῳ,

σφραγίζω
sphragizō
sfrag-id'-zo
From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

Being marked with a seal, seems to be a different thing than being born of the Spirit.

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[complete]

Not the best translation. These are more accurate.

Ephesians 1:13
(AMPC) In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.
(GNB) And you also became God's people when you heard the true message, the Good News that brought you salvation. You believed in Christ, and God put his stamp of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit he had promised.
(NIrV) You also became believers in Christ. That happened when you heard the message of truth. It was the good news about how you could be saved. When you believed, he marked you with a seal. The seal is the Holy Spirit that he promised.
(NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
(NLT) And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

(Greek NT) ἐν ᾧ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀκούσαντες τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς σωτηρίας ὑμῶν, ἐν ᾧ καὶ πιστεύσαντες ἐσφραγίσθητε τῷ Πνεύματι τῆς ἐπαγγελίας τῷ ῾Αγίῳ,

σφραγίζω
sphragizō
sfrag-id'-zo
From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

'In Whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,'
(Eph 1:13)

Hi @B-A-C,

'In Whom ... ye were sealed' is enough for me!
What security! What assurance!

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

[ Message Deleted ]

Keeping it is a different subject than "when do you get it?"
Sometimes it's difficult not to get distracted.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Does the Holy Spirit immediately come to indwell a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior

Yes, spiritual birth is instant, but maintaining the indwelling of the spirit is another matter. There’re a lot of warnings in the Bible about apostasy, or in modern term, “backsliding”. The foolish virgins who don’t have enough oil to keep the fire burning will be rejected.

 

[Garee]

Yes, spiritual birth is instant, but maintaining the indwelling of the spirit is another matter. There’re a lot of warnings in the Bible about apostasy, or in modern term, “backsliding”. The foolish virgins who don’t have enough oil to keep the fire burning will be rejected.

Philippians makes a good commentary on the subject matter .

I would think as our living confidence we can trust if the lord began the good work of salvation in us yoked with him he will finish it till our last day . Some like myself are slower learners.And remember the Holy Spirit informs us he is the one that brings to our memory the previous thing he has taught us

Philippians 1:6 King James Version6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

If it is God's Holy Spirit working in us to both reveal his will and empower us to finish it according to his power. We can say we have the confidence of His Holy Spirit and put no confidence in the flesh

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

​

Philippians

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Philippians makes a good commentary on the subject matter .

I would think as our living confidence we can trust if the lord began the good work of salvation in us yoked with him he will finish it till our last day . Some like myself are slower learners.And remember the Holy Spirit informs us he is the one that brings to our memory the previous thing he has taught us

Philippians 1:6 King James Version6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

If it is God's Holy Spirit working in us to both reveal his will and empower us to finish it according to his power. We can say we have the confidence of His Holy Spirit and put no confidence in the flesh

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

​

Philippians

I brought this up because one thing must be clarified - going apostasy leads to loss of reward (1 Cor. 3:14-15), and loss of reward is NOT loss of salvation, but the consequence for an apostate believer is MORE severe than never have been born in Spirit in the first place. The principle is laid out in Luke 12:47-48 -

That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

This consequence is illustrated in the parable of the unclean spirit (Matt. 12:43-45, Luke 11:24-26). Receiving the gospel can cast the evil spirit out of its host, but without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the empty house, the host will be repossessed by the original spirit plus seven additional evil spirits, and as a result, they'll end up in a far worse state than he used to be before he received the gospel. A common sermon title for this passage is called "nature abhors a vacuum." Real atheist does not exist, anyone who claims to be an atheist always has their own golden calf to worship, oftentimes more than one.

When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”

 

[Garee]

I brought this up because one thing must be clarified - going apostasy leads to loss of reward (1 Cor. 3:14-15), and loss of reward is NOT loss of salvation, but the consequence for an apostate believer is MORE severe than never have been born in Spirit in the first place. The principle is laid out in Luke 12:47-48 -

That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

This consequence is illustrated in the parable of the unclean spirit (Matt. 12:43-45, Luke 11:24-26). Receiving the gospel can cast the evil spirit out of its host, but without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the empty house, the host will be repossessed by the original spirit plus seven additional evil spirits, and as a result, they'll end up in a far worse state than he used to be before he received the gospel. A common sermon title for this passage is called "nature abhors a vacuum." Real atheist does not exist, anyone who claims to be an atheist always has their own golden calf to worship, oftentimes more than one.

When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”

Hi thanks .

I see that a little differently.

I would offer. Apostasy is to completely deny the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God . “a standing away” or “withdrawing,”“desertion

The suffix Apo– is also used in the similar but different word apostle, which comes from a Greek term meaning “one who is sent forth.” One holds back the other is moved by the Holy Spirit

All believers receive the same reward "eternal life".

An apostate would be one that went out from us because they were not of us.

The 1 Corinthians 3 reference has to do with those sent as apostles they preach the gospel and there is no fruit coming from the Holy Spirit.

Verses 6 and 7 of the same chapter shows the work of the preaching of apostles as nothing unless Christ causes the growth. In that way their work of preaching is at a loss. . if God does not cause a increase ..

Many from my experience attribute the fruit of the gospel to the preaching of the apostles and not that of God who alone can cause an increase or growth.

1 Corinthians 3: 6 -7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

That work of preaching will be burned up but the preacher, apostle himself remains saved by the cleansing purifying fire. The reward remain constant “eternal life”

The Luke 12 reference is another kind of doctrine. It makes a direct division between one saved 47-48 and the other, faithless unbelievers verse 46.

The Luke 12 :46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Believers are disciplined called stripes . . one lesser than the other. They are not called faithless unbelievers.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hi thanks .

I see that a little differently.

I would offer. Apostasy is to completely deny the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God . “a standing away” or “withdrawing,”“desertion

The suffix Apo– is also used in the similar but different word apostle, which comes from a Greek term meaning “one who is sent forth.” One holds back the other is moved by the Holy Spirit

All believers receive the same reward "eternal life".

An apostate would be one that went out from us because they were not of us.

The 1 Corinthians 3 reference has to do with those sent as apostles they preach the gospel and there is no fruit coming from the Holy Spirit.

Verses 6 and 7 of the same chapter shows the work of the preaching of apostles as nothing unless Christ causes the growth. In that way their work of preaching is at a loss. . if God does not cause a increase ..

Many from my experience attribute the fruit of the gospel to the preaching of the apostles and not that of God who alone can cause an increase or growth.

1 Corinthians 3: 6 -7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

That work of preaching will be burned up but the preacher, apostle himself remains saved by the cleansing purifying fire. The reward remain constant “eternal life”

The Luke 12 reference is another kind of doctrine. It makes a direct division between one saved 47-48 and the other, faithless unbelievers verse 46.

The Luke 12 :46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Believers are disciplined called stripes . . one lesser than the other. They are not called faithless unbelievers.

They were not of us? That's a bit radical, it sounds like Calvinism, that whoever sins and backslides is never a true Christian to begin with, that I highly disagree. In the parable of the soil, there are FOUR kinds, and the vast majority, you and me may be included, fall into the second and the third - stony ground and thorny ground. Are we all condemned? Never been of Christ? I don't think so. Stony ground can be tilled, thorny ground can be cleared. We can't earn our salvation, we can't make the seed of gospel grow, but we surely can make room for the seed to grow. Salvation is never a one and done deal, when Passover was instituted, not only should the blood of the lamb be put on the door post, but the lamb must be roasted and eaten as well, that's the origin of Yeshua's "offensive" teaching - eat His flesh and drink His blood.

 

[Garee]

They were not of us? That's a bit radical, it sounds like Calvinism, that whoever sins and backslides is never a true Christian to begin with, that I highly disagree. In the parable of the soil, there are FOUR kinds, and the vast majority, you and me may be included, fall into the second and the third - stony ground and thorny ground. Are we all condemned? Never been of Christ? I don't think so. Stony ground can be tilled, thorny ground can be cleared. We can't earn our salvation, we can't make the seed of gospel grow, but we surely can make room for the seed to grow. Salvation is never a one and done deal, when Passover was instituted, not only should the blood of the lamb be put on the door post, but the lamb must be roasted and eaten as well, that's the origin of Yeshua's "offensive" teaching - eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Hi Thanks

Radical or biblically as a loving law? The Bible defines the us in Christ and those who went out not of us.

Backsliding is what Christian do when they sin .

Unbelievers No faith. . have nothing to backslide from .

The seed is the gospel light on the path a lamp for our feet .

To drink the blood and eat the bread is to pour out one's spirit in jeopardy of His own spirit life .Jesus demonstrating the love of the father working in him yoked with the father finished the work

The kind of food the apostles knew not of at first . The same daily bread we receive when we ask for it .

John 4:33-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hi Thanks

Radical or biblically as a loving law? The Bible defines the us in Christ and those who went out not of us.

Backsliding is what Christian do when they sin .

Unbelievers No faith. . have nothing to backslide from .

The seed is the gospel light on the path a lamp for our feet .

To drink the blood and eat the bread is to pour out one's spirit in jeopardy of His own spirit life .Jesus demonstrating the love of the father working in him yoked with the father finished the work

The kind of food the apostles knew not of at first . The same daily bread we receive when we ask for it .

John 4:33-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

There're seven churches in Rev. 2-3, only two are good, the other five all have backslid, Laodicea the last one being the worst. If they were not of Christ to begin win, then Christ himself wouldn't have issued these letters to them.

 

[B-A-C]

LOL, here comes OSAS again. Why does every discussion about the Holy Spirit turn into an OSAS discussion?

This thread is about "When do you receive the Holy Spirit". It isn't about "When does it leave you" or "Do you always stay saved"
we have hundreds of those threads on TalkJesus.

If we really need another OSAS thread, we can start a new one or we can continue one of these...

OSAS - debate # 2,134,567

Part 1 Once saved - always saved. This is perhaps one of the greatest dividing factors in the Church today. There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

LOL, here comes OSAS again. Why does every discussion about the Holy Spirit turn into an OSAS discussion?

Because "salvation" is conflated with "reward". "Salvation" is just access to the millennial kingdom, "reward" is ownership of the millennial kingdom, there's a big difference. This reward is explicitly stated in 1 Cor. 3, but also inexplicitly described in the parable of talents and the parable of minas. At the end of the millennial reign, there will be an insurrection of the nations against Christ, that's very likely to be these wicked and lazy one-talent servants who have lost their rewards. I can't imagine how a royal priesthood, joined heir of Christ who have reigned with the Master for a thousand years could do that, that's proposterous, it makes no sense.

 

[B-A-C]

An apostate would be one that went out from us because they were not of us.

1Jn 2:19; They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The question is... were they "never" of us, or were they simply not of us after a while?

Luke 10:1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
Luke 10:2 And He was saying to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

Luke 10:17; The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:19; "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
Luke 10:20; "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

"Rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven" - so it seems their names were recorded in heaven.

John 6:65; And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

Some of the disciples Jesus appointed, left Him after a while.... it seems these are the same ones who's "names are recorded in heaven".

..but yet...

1Jn 2:19; They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Radical or biblically as a loving law? The Bible defines the us in Christ and those who went out not of us.

And btw, I gotta point out that "loving law" is kind of an oxymoron. Any law by nature is restrive and punitive based on DIStrust. A covenant, it's designed for an untrustworthy person who has a known tendency and record of bad behaviors, the kind of person who constantly needs you to keep an eye on them, or there will be dereliction of duty. A law's purpose is to deter such bad behaviors by holding this person accountable. Covenant, on the other hand, is based on TRUST. The primary meaning of the word "Torah" is always instruction, teaching and guidance, it's never meant to be law in the first place. God's relationship with Israel started with a covenant, but turned into LAW after the golden calf incident. Those laws were added as a consequence for their idolatry since Israel had proven themselves to be such an untrustworthy people, and it stayed that way until Yeshua restored the covenant with his blood.

If you ask a friend or family for a favor, such as looking after your kid, your pet, or your house for a while, you don't need to write a contract, sometimes you don't even need to tell them the details, just say the word and they'll take care of it. And if you're familiar with them and equally trusted, then they could ask you a favor like that, and you'll do it. However, if you ask a total stranger to do the job, especially somebody who has a bad reputation, then you'll probably set a lots of rules, you'll even install a serveillance camera to monitor their performance. This is why "those who are under the law is cursed," the curse is loss of trust.

 

[Garee]

And btw, I gotta point out that "loving law" is kind of an oxymoron. Any law by nature is restrive and punitive based on DIStrust. A covenant, it's designed for an untrustworthy person who has a known tendency and record of bad behaviors, the kind of person who constantly needs you to keep an eye on them, or there will be dereliction of duty. A law's purpose is to deter such bad behaviors by holding this person accountable. Covenant, on the other hand, is based on TRUST. The primary meaning of the word "Torah" is always instruction, teaching and guidance, it's never meant to be law in the first place. God's relationship with Israel started with a covenant, but turned into LAW after the golden calf incident. Those laws were added as a consequence for their idolatry since Israel had proven themselves to be such an untrustworthy people, and it stayed that way until Yeshua restored the covenant with his blood.

If you ask a friend or family for a favor, such as looking after your kid, your pet, or your house for a while, you don't need to write a contract, sometimes you don't even need to tell them the details, just say the word and they'll take care of it. And if you're familiar with them and equally trusted, then they could ask you a favor like that, and you'll do it. However, if you ask a total stranger to do the job, especially somebody who has a bad reputation, then you'll probably set a lots of rules, you'll even install a serveillance camera to monitor their performance. This is why "those who are under the law is cursed," the curse is loss of trust.

Thanks, I see his will as a loving authority. The sweet fragrance of eternal life. Some others see it as the smell of death more like God scares us into salvation .

In that way in Philipian 1:6 he informs us if he has begun exercising or working out his loving will in us he will finish it till the end .

David speaks of the love that gives us patience to wait and trust the loving authority.

Psalm 130:1 King James Version "if" thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities,(God's love keeps no record of wrongs suffered)

Psalm 130: 2-7 O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. I wait for the Lord, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning. Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

We seek him because they is loving forgiveness with him .

I would offer some do the will of God with delight other see him as having no mercy.

The government of peace consist of two working as one. Loving authority plus willing submissiveness. The father and son working together in perfect harmony , or the husband and wife . . the government of peace .

Not those that lord it over each other "do or die" Mankind is already dead dying in our tresspases and sin without power or God but are lovingly powered do and live

If our loving gospel is hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


His loving commandments or called a work of faith as a labor of His love "Let there be" and "it was good". it ordained new spirit life where none existed previously.

​

 

[Garee]

A tricky question:

Most Pentecostal denominations believe there are two separate events.
The "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit which happens immediately at the instant of Salvation.

..and then the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, which could happen years later, ( or even seconds later )

Acts 1:3; To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 1:4; Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
Acts 1:5; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Jesus was speaking to the apostles here. Were they not saved before this conversation? ...and yet Jesus says you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit at some point in the future.

Acts 1:13; When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.
Acts 1:14; These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Acts 1:15; At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,

Then we have the upper room, with about 120 people there, including Mary and the apostles. Were none of these people saved?

Acts 2:2; And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3; And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

... the apostles had followed Jesus for 3 years, and yet they don't get baptized in the Holy Spirit until this chapter. Were they not saved before this day?

Acts 8:14; Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
Acts 8:15; who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:17; Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

These were obviously believers, who had already been baptized ( in the name of the Lord ), but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. This is 6 chapters after Acts 2.
Then we have Cornelius.

Acts 10:1; Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Acts 10:2; a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Acts 10:3; About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!"

It seems he is also a believer, and had been for a while. But yet he doesn't get baptized in the Holy Spirit until....

Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

We also have the disciples at Ephesus.

Acts 19:1; It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2; He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3; And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4; Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19:7; There were in all about twelve men.

They didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. Again, obviously they were believers, who had already been baptized in water. ( John's baptism )
But yet they had never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit until this moment. They could have believers for years before this time.

John the baptist, said water baptism, and the Holy Spirit baptism were two different things.

Matt 3:11; "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Luke 3:16; John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

There is a verse that says we don't receive the Holy Spirit unless we specifically ask for it.

Luke 11:13; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

There is another verses that says you must obey God to receive it.

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Finally we have Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus. Now He was a Pharisee, he did believe in God, but not Jesus so much before this trip.
It was three days later when received Damascus.

Acts 9:9; And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Acts 9:17; So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Why didn't Paul receive the Holy Spirit at the moment he met Jesus on the road to Damascus?

In fact, I don't see a single place in the Bible... where the phrase "received the baptism of the Holy Spirit" happens to anyone who just got saved at that instant.
Now I do believe they could happen a few seconds within each other. But it's obvious in the Bible, they are two separate events.

Salvation is altogether one work of God .Let there be and it was good.


I would offer we first have to see where Paul as Saul came from (darkness) murdering Christian. . then we can understand where he received the power to go .Moved from darkness to light


Acts 24;6=10 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Beginning that good work of salvation in Paul Paul was given the faith of Christ to understand he would continue till he died

Philipian 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

God does not perform half a work .

 

[complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Does the Holy Spirit immediately come to indwell a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as personal Saviour'

@Br. Bear:- #1
@B-A-C:- #3, #4. #6, #14, #16
@Jonathan_Gale:- #7, #9, #11, #h13, #15, #17
@Garee:- #8 ,#10, #12, #18, #19

Hello there,

It is clear from the verses quoted below that the sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place within the believer immediately,

'Who hath also sealed us,
and given the earnest of the Spirit
in our hearts.'
(2 Corinthians 1:22)

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
(2 Corinthians 5:4-5)

'In Whom (Christ) ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom (Christ) also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Ephesians 1:13-14)

'And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed
unto the day of redemption.'
(Ephesians 4:30)

* How wonderful! This 'sealing' takes place in Christ. 'The earnest' is the promise of God which guarantees our inheritance until the day of redemption which is the day of the resurrection from among the dead.

* It is God which places us in Christ, we are indeed His workmanship in all respects:-

'But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us -
.. wisdom,
.... and righteousness,
...... and sanctification,
........ and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth,
let Him glory in the Lord.'
(1Cor. 1:30-31)

Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
(replies #2, #5)