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Does the immense scale of the universe undercut or strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ?

KingJ said:
The opposite seems true. More Bad News for Radiometric Dating
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Not really that site has been debunked here

Refuting "Radiometric Dating Methods Makes Untenable Assumptions!" | Debunking Denialism

A very common claim of young earth creationists in trying to reject the evidence for an old earth is to loudly proclaim that radiometric dating methods “makes assumptions” and that these “assumptions” are somehow fatally flawed or not supported by evidence. These claims generally land in three different categories: (1) radiometric dating assumes that initial conditions (concentrations of mother and daughter nuclei) are known, (2) radiometric dating assumes that rocks are closed systems and (3) radiometric dating assumes that decay rates are constant. Most young earth creationists reject all of these points. As a scientific skeptics, we ask ourselves: is this really the case? Let us critically examine each of these claims and see if they hold up against the science. While doing so, we will have to learn about how radiometric dating actually works.

"There are many different kinds of radiometric dating and not all conclusions we will reach can be extrapolated to all methods used. Also, different radiometric dating techniques independently converges with each other and with other dating techniques such as dendrochronology, layers in sediment, growth rings on corals, rhythmic layering of ice in glaciers, magnetostratigraphy, fission tracks and many other methods. This serves as strong evidence for the reliability of radiometric dating methods. "
 
KingJ said:
If you think randomization by natural selection will ever produce working products that are irreducibly complex, you simply fail at engineering.
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Take a hit from a Christian scientist who debunked IR.

in this video from a lecture about the Kitzmiller trial, Ken Miller debunks Michael Behe's pseudoscience, "Irreducible Complexity". This is one of the main Creationist arguments against Evolution. Miller shows that the common example, bacterial flagellum, is not in fact irreducibly complex. If it were irreducibly complex, then removing parts should make them useless. However, this is not the case. The parts have functions of their own! Thus, "IC" is proven to be false.

 
@Victor Van Heerden -- I tried that approach -- providing 'real, acceptable, reasonable, tangible evidence -- for miracles -- and the guy would not accept any of it.
Every existing person has a soul / spirit. You have one. I have one. It's our 'inner being'. The part of us that accepts salvation. Or rejects it. And it's that inner part of us that 'connects' with another person. :)
 
Victor Van Heerden said:
We don't come from an ape - we are apes. Intelligent apes. What do you think a primate is?
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No, we are Not apes. Evolution wants us to Think we came from apes -- actually chimps. But Apes are Apes -- chimps are chimps -- people are people.

Actually, biologically speaking human beings are mammals and mammals are part of the group primate. Only biologically speaking. Animals mate within their 'kind' --dogs are dogs with lots of variation within that type of animal. Cats are part of feline group -- but they never cross into another kind / type of animal. Same with girrafs. or rhinos or any of those animals.

People Are intelligent beings as are animals. One of the distinguishing factors -- people have the capacity to learn different languages. And we have written word.
 
@Victor Van Heerden
Interesting.
One would have to believe that God agrees with the perspective of man was correct in everything written. :smile:
Understanding that the Psalms were?
While even the Proverbs were?

Each from the perspective of man to God, and not of God to man.
This is not to question the veracity/accuracy of Scripture, but only to show the limitations of man's attempting to define/understand and communicate his boundaries of existence using only the very limited observable data he had or has access to.

We see how difficult it is when God does communicate as seen with prophecy to a humanity that has a finite mind in concepts foreign to their existence. Actually we don't even have to go so far as to discuss the material world, when in Jesus the Love of God is shown by His death to uncaring/unloving world is barely or rarely understood and then toss in the resurrection? You have a community of scoffers, that find it easier to doubt the witness accounts found in the same writings they desire to disabuse as having any Scientific value.

The Bible speaks also a Historical truth, but it doesn't mean God agrees that it should have happened, but only that it did. This Holy Book is amazing that it communicates even truths that are not so palatable when looked at in the mirror in the Light by humanity. Because of this, it keeps humanity seeking to find through their own effort rather than in faith a reason to know the Creator as you have pointed out through "The Glory of God".

Please don't couple other religions together. None profess a witnessed manifestation of their deity in the flesh, only through prophets, or enlightened humanity or concepts that agree with many things, but none in a prophesied resurrected Christ.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><

Since I'm sure you love reading. You should try a book by Dr. Henry Morris, called The Long War Against God, The History and impact of the Creation/Evolution conflict.
Even my Physicist Professor brother-in-law found it of interest. For some reason years ago when I led him to read this, he couldn't stop talking about marbles. (shrug). Maybe you'll make sense of it, for I surely could not.

I truly hope you will last here long enough to maybe even comment on it. Sadly, I do not hold out much hope of this, but I do hope that you will garner something of value from what may be a short stay with us here at Talk Jesus.
 
Victor Van Heerden said:
Nope - its based on cosmological deduction. Millions of earth size planets and like planets in the The Goldilocks Zone . Why won't life be there and maybe intelligent life? And Evolution happens wither you accept it or not. It just means change over time..
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There is no sound evidence for evolution. It's an idea that can't even hit the hypothesis level of science. Darwin caused the Church to stumble a while, but true science is being guided by the Holy Spirit in honest scientists who simply seek the truth about nature. The Lost Generation through Baby Boomers fell prey to evolutionists, brainwashed with that, but then arose the beginning of strong defenders of creation using science without interpreting science from an agnostic/atheist point of view. Theistic Evolution, having God presiding over (using) evolution, is also not so popular now in the face of science advances. Genetics alone will end the debate soon, if not already. It will take time for researchers to be able to find ways to communicate that to the masses, perhaps right after Jesus returns for His Church. He wants beleivers pleasing God with faith.
 
Skeptics delight to challenge Christians over the Bible, slamming us with "science". It's understandable the learning curve to deal with that is huge and daunting. It won't do anyone a bit of good in this life, except for sales of books on the subject. The Evolution-Creation debate is a huge distraction away from what God meant us to be doing. Mankind is better off learning God's word and applying it to our daily lives. It's time, spirit, and life tested, our guide to a successful life in Christ.

It's important to remember that in a school there are science classes where science is learned. The problem we have today is what Satan did to science about two centuries ago, upon the use of Charles Darwin to his purposes. Science was redefined to exclude "supernatural", thus excluding any reference from the Bible as being part of science. Well, technically they are right by their standard, but not by God's. There were times when all American students learned about the most famous scientists like Newton, Mendel, Galileo, Copernicus, Maxwell and Kepler, all deeply religious men of God, many Christians before the days of Darwin. People wonder where their genius came from. It obviously came by inspiration from God. He promised the faithful the ability to detect "witty inventions" by His wisdom, too. Those are the evil plans of the wicked plotting, those who despise the precious word of God.

Proverbs 8:12-14 (KJV)
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

I asked my teen grand-daughters to name a famous evolutionist. They couldn't. They can identify dinosaurs, describe the geological time table, use the table of elements, and name astronauts. They named some of those old time great scientists. The truly greats will be greats in the distant future too, because of the astounding significance of their discoveries and what they led to, but I doubt perverters of true science, which is God's suitable explanation of origins to man, will survive memories.

Add to the honor list the many great scientists who are the more modern lights of God's science who have shaped the knowledge God has had in store for mankind, and doubtless many more to come. Let no evolutionist rob you of joy in the Lord. They have no good intentions at this place named Talk JESUS.
 
Victor Van Heerden said:
Take a hit from a Christian scientist who debunked IR.

in this video from a lecture about the Kitzmiller trial, Ken Miller debunks Michael Behe's pseudoscience, "Irreducible Complexity". This is one of the main Creationist arguments against Evolution. Miller shows that the common example, bacterial flagellum, is not in fact irreducibly complex. If it were irreducibly complex, then removing parts should make them useless. However, this is not the case. The parts have functions of their own! Thus, "IC" is proven to be false.
Click to expand...

1. The are many more examples a lot more complex then a flagellum motor. The flagellum motor was given as an example of the concept of IC. IC is a sound theory. You cannot debunk it.
2. The timeline for randomization by natural selection for every component of the flagellum motor to become a flagellum motor is far beyond the 13 billion years from the big bang. To keep face with actuaries evolution needs to think of the big bang as 13 centillion years ago or perhaps closer to infinity.

But this does not fit in with their faith. If more zero's are added to the big bang, the dating of fossils has to either change or we have to concede that we have no relations to them. Or if you really want to stretch evolutionary faith you can just conclude that there are centillions of missing links.

Ever play the lotto? What are your odds of getting 7 winning numbers from 49?
 
@Victor Van Heerden
You might think about changing your Avatar.
You are wonderfully made in the image of God, not in the image of another of His Creations.
You should be rejoicing in that.
He sees you as you truly are.
He sees us all as we are, faults and all.
He still loves us. Yes even you He loves.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
 
KingJ said:
1. The are many more examples a lot more complex then a flagellum motor. The flagellum motor was given as an example of the concept of IC. IC is a sound theory. You cannot debunk it.
2. The timeline for randomization by natural selection for every component of the flagellum motor to become a flagellum motor is far beyond the 13 billion years from the big bang. To keep face with actuaries evolution needs to think of the big bang as 13 centillion years ago or perhaps closer to infinity.

But this does not fit in with their faith. If more zero's are added to the big bang, the dating of fossils has to either change or we have to concede that we have no relations to them. Or if you really want to stretch evolutionary faith you can just conclude that there are centillions of missing links.

Ever play the lotto? What are your odds of getting 7 winning numbers from 49?
Click to expand...

The flagellum motor issue has been answered many times as yet another "Piltdown Man" type embarassing display of science ignorance, and bias against religion. This is typical of evolution articles in even our local high school biology textbooks, filled with "may have", "is believed to have", "possibly arose", and many other speculative phrases that dilute objective science observations. It's sad evolutionists reach back years, often decades to old articles and ongoing chat debates to revive arguments that have been settled by modern science.

Here's a very simple comment that puts all this in perspective with minimum scientific terminology. Also, scroll down to Marvelous Molecular Machines. The site is Institute of Creation Institute, Dallas, TX. It's a great place to catch up on current science without corruption of antichrists.
 
We all are governed by laws. Whether at home or at work or at play we are governed by laws. Laws did not create themselves from a blob of protein or whatever, they exist because God exists and because God exists we exist. Gods laws are to guide us in righteousness.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
In Genesis 2 we read Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life is metaphorically pointing to the Word of God from whom Adam & Eve were to eat. Although man was given dominion over the creation man (which includes women) were still to look to God for their source of knowledge and wisdom. God would still be worshipped and He would rule over them. Therefore, spiritually they had to eat from the tree of life.

Now the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was also in their midst. Metaphorically this points to having the knowledge of both good and evil, truth and lies, right and wrong. Adam and Eve at this stage only knew good, they were perfect in every way. They were created in the image of God and God is perfect and it is impossible for God to sin. Now in Genesis 3 we see that the serpent beguiled the woman and seduced her away from God with his cunning lies. She wanted to be like God knowing good and evil. Simply put she ate from the lies of the serpent. Now again metaphorically the serpent points to Satan as the seducer and the dragon the persecutor. What does he want? He wants others to follow his rebellion and worship him and so that is what happened man rebelled against God and therefore were separated from God because of that one sin. They chose to follow the lie and fallen man is still following the lies of their spiritual father today, that is, Satan. When you eat something it goes into the bowels and is for your nourishment. Therefore. What we believe goes into the heart and directs the man, woman or child. Who and what we believe governs us and our thinking. Just to mention, God is three persons and man was created in His image with a body, soul and spirit. The soul consists of the mind, will and emotions. When God breathed into the nostrils of the man he became a living soul. At the fall man died spiritually because of their separation from God. At death the soul returns to God who gave it for judgement.
The world became full of spiritual darkness because this fall.

John 1:1-5 relates to Genesis 1:1-5. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
In John 1:14 we see that the Word became flesh - Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Now in the Gospel of John we see that the first 5 verses related to the Genesis account. Understand that this was written over 4000 years after the fact of creation. We see that the Word, the Tree of Life, was with God in the beginning. Therefore, it proves beyond a doubt that God (Elohim plural) created everything. Present was God the Father, God the Son (the Word of God – the Manna from heaven), and the Holy Spirit who moved over the face of the waters. Know too that the waters are metaphorically pointing to the nations. So as we see even today that spiritual darkness is over the nations and so the promise of the Holy Spirit would be that He would be poured out on all flesh to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement (John 14-16; Acts 1-2) and so when God says let there be light it is not referring to the sun or the moon or the stars because they came later in Genesis 1:14-19. When God says let there be light He was saying let there be truth in the darkness, let Him shine in a dark world. Let Him show the way to the Father and that all life is in Him alone (John 14:6). Now in John 1:4-5 we see John saying just that. Light was there in the beginning and that light would separate the light from the darkness in other words through Him alone would men, women and children come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved from the lies of the god of this world and whom fallen men worship and follow (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28; John 8). So, after man fell they chose to follow the lie rather than the truth and therefore all those in the first Adam still to this day follow the lies of the serpent – Satan.

Now in John 1:14 we see that the Word – the Tree of Life – became flesh and made His dwelling amongst us. Because man could not atone for his own sin God had to become a man, a perfect man without sin in body, soul or spirit and die for man on a cross taking the judgement for our sin upon Himself. Dying on the cross he said “it is finished” (John 19:30) – what is finished - the redemption of man – that is, He purchased men for God – for all those who believe the truth. He was buried and was resurrected and all those who follow have the blessed hope of the resurrection because He was the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15). All those who still live and are in Christ at the end will be fetched as the Bridegroom comes back for His bride (John 14).
Now because the whole of creation, that includes everything we see above, is under the curse God is going to destroy everything and make an end to those who will not obey the gospel and continue to believe the lies of the god of this world Satan (Revelation 6-22 Emphasis Chapter 17-20) (Note: Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Note: there was not more sea – once again the seas point to the nations and at the end of the millennial reign and the judgement of God the old heavens and earth are destroyed – passed away). Note too that if there were creatures on other planets in other galaxies they would too have been under the curse mentioned in Genesis 3 and so how could it ever be that they would hear the gospel? There is no other living matter outside of our earth if there were it would have been placed into Gods Word and there is no mention of any such thing. It would mean that Jesus Christ would have to have gone to every planet to show Himself risen from the dead and the Word of God says that He appeared to those on this earth that He had called.

Instead of man becoming better, as per the lie of evolutionary progression, they are getting worse and worse and it will get to a time that it will be as it was in the days of Noah that mans heart will be continually evil all the time (Genesis 6-7) men scoffing at the truth pushing the evolution lie despite that God said that all were created according to their kind – that is to their genetic footprint. There can be interbreeding amongst animals bringing in different species of the same kind. Man too can intermarry with other so called racial groups and have children that are different to the parents having the DNA/genes of the parents. It did not take millions of years to produce this different child only 9 months until birth and that by Gods foreknowledge and design.

You can go with the evolution lie as much as you want but if you do not believe the first words of the bible which state “in the beginning God…” then you will definitely will not believer the rest of the bible.

God created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days and on the seventh He rested. I say, enter into His rest all those who believe and stop trying to work out things that are quite plain in the Word of God. Come through Jesus Christ and enter into a relationship with Him again and eat from the Tree of Life – the Word of God in the power of Gods Spirit and you will come to know the truth and the truth will make you free.

I have another teaching that will supplement this one on Genesis 1:14-19 that shows that Christ is the centre of the creation and all of creation should be worshipping Him. To include it here would make this post too long.
 
It is all about faith, either you have it or you don't ! Faith is a Good thing, Faith is a God thing, a spritual thing. Faith will not or can co-mingal with Science. Hawkins after extensive scientific study, and before his death, concluded that there is no God, Heaven or Hell, you just cease to exist. As a lover of science, I must say that Hawkins had a compelling conclusion but he lacked one element that could not fit in to any mathematical formula....faith!!!!
 
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