Effeminate men will not inherit the Kingdom of God

[B-A-C]

The passages from 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians use the Greek word "arsenokoitais" which in English is translated homosexuals. It means a man who has sex with men, or a pederast. Same with the Leviticus passage. Neither mention or condemn same-sex desire.

Your words don't say "same sex desire".

Listen to the experiences of gay Christians who have committed to a life of celibacy

You say "gay Christians".

 

[B-A-C]

There are people who feel they were born that way

Perhaps, but as far as I can tell in my research... it's the only sin the Bible calls "unnatural". Meaning that same-sex people aren't "naturally" attracted to each other.
It may be "Natural" for people to lie, cheat, steal, kill, commit fornication, commit adultery... but it is never "natural" to lust for the same sex.

Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

 

[Hekuran]

Your words don't say "same sex desire".


You say "gay Christians".

What difference in meaning do you see between the two? I'm using the phrases interchangeably: "gay" means someone who is attracted to people of the same sex.

If I put it in more formal language, would you agree that some Christians are attracted to people of the same sex?

 

[B-A-C]

The passages from 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians use the Greek word "arsenokoitais" which in English is translated homosexuals. It means a man who has sex with men, or a pederast. Same with the Leviticus passage

The old testament was written in Hebrew, it's not the same word. But I agree, it has the same meaning.

If no one who has immoral desires can be a Christian, then I am counted out,

Everyone is tempted, even Jesus was tempted. Being tempted isn't a sin.
But do you entertain those thoughts, do you hold onto them? Do you fantasize about them?
Or do you take every thought captive? Sometimes it takes practice, like a bad habit you do every day out of habit.
But you can make yourself have new habits. After a period of time, you don't even have to "make" yourself do it, it's just habit.

2Cor 10:5; We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

Jas 1:14; But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. <- not sin quite yet.
Jas 1:15; Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. <- now it's sin.
Jas 1:16; Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

 

[B-A-C]

If I put it in more formal language, would you agree that some Christians are attracted to people of the same sex?

No.

Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

 

[KingJ]

I'm not trolling, I'm serious and committed to what I'm saying.

Listen to the experiences of gay Christians who have committed to a life of celibacy. They have faithfully chosen a hard road, and the demeaning comments in this thread don't help at all.

How is the desire any different for a pedophile? or someone who likes beastiality?

 

[Hekuran]

No.

Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we look at that passage as a whole

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbour. For each will have to bear his own load.

Again it's Paul exhorting the church to self-control. We do not indulge the desires of the flesh, we nurture the fruit of the Spirit. Temptation - being beset by ungodly desires - is not sin; giving in to temptation is sin.

 

[B-A-C]

Again it's Paul exhorting the church to self-control. We do not indulge the desires of the flesh, we nurture the fruit of the Spirit. Temptation - being beset by ungodly desires - is not sin; giving in to temptation is sin.

Agreed, but this is my point. If my desire not to do it, is stronger than my desire to do it. Then I've already changed. If my self-control is stronger than my will to sin, then that's no longer my primary desire.
I'm no longer "gay" because my desire to follow God is greater.

 

[Hekuran]

Ok @B-A-C . I think weve got to the point where we'd need to go back to the brginning and do a load of careful examination of our understanding of the definitions of words before we can go forwards again.

Honestly, though im happy to give it a rest. Im not sure weve reached agreement, but at least a bit more understanding of each others' thoughts. Peace and grace.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

This thread is not about the gay rights movement.

You are speaking of my friends and your Christian brothers and sisters. May I ask you to be a bit less free with the insulting language.

“Gay” or “lesbian” is NOT an identity. Our only identity is a child of God through Christ under the new covenant. If you insist that it’s an identity from birth, then you must’ve drunken the Kool Aid too, and I’m not sorry for being harsh on this.

 

[Hekuran]

“Gay” or “lesbian” is NOT an identity. Our only identity is a child of God through Christ under the new covenant. If you insist that it’s an identity from birth, then you must’ve drunken the Kool Aid too, and I’m not sorry for being harsh on this.

The "if" in that post is doing some heavy lifting as I havent mentioned identity issues and I havent said anything about being gay from birth.

I don't plan to have a conversation with you about these things, as the kool aid references are a bit tiresome.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The "if" in that post is doing some heavy lifting as I havent mentioned identity issues and I havent said anything about being gay from birth.

I don't plan to have a conversation with you about these things, as the kool aid references are a bit tiresome.

You are the one who called them "gay christians", not me. By calling them as such, you have put up "same sex attraction" as their primary identity, and because of that, they begin to think of themselves as such. I would consider them with respect as "brothers and sisters in struggle with sinful desire of homosexuality."

 

[Hekuran]

@Jonathan_Gale It's your assumptions that did things with people's primary identities, not my words.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Jonathan_Gale It's your assumptions that did things with people's primary identities, not my words.

Oh really? Is it my assumption - or a label which YOU put on them? Again, I've never called them "gay Christians", that's an oxymoron, you did in post #113.

 

[Hekuran]

Oh really? Is it my assumption - or a label which YOU put on them? Again, I've never called them "gay Christians", that's an oxymoron, you did in post #113.

No, it's not a label I've put on anyone, it's how some people choose to describe themselves. Have a nice day.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No, it's not a label I've put on anyone, it's how some people choose to describe themselves. Have a nice day.

This is just another chicken and egg scenario. Do you call them "gay christians" as they describe themselves in that way - or do they describe themselves in that way because you identify them as such first?

 

[Hekuran]

This is just another chicken and egg scenario. Do you call them "gay christians" as they describe themselves in that way - or do they describe themselves in that way because you identify them as such first?

Whats the point in this question? I think you might just be looking around for some point to disagree with me on.