False ways to be saved

[my_little_pony]

Hi Jari. Thanks for that.

I realize that you are talking about being born again, and I agree with you that it's very necessary.

However, the verses I posted about "Lord,Lord" people implies that these people DO think they are born again. They probably think they are very spiritual people and based on the phrase "Lord, Lord" they probably use all kinds of phrases to indicate that they are spirit filled Christians.

BUT, despite what these people may believe about themselves or what a fantastic talk they talk, he had a problem because they would not obey him.

These people probably even DO "good" works, too. Jesus said these people would argue that they cast out demons and prophesied IN HIS NAME and STILL Jesus will say he never knew them.

There are people who deeply believe they are right with God. Despite their goodness, Jesus still had a problem with them, because they didn't do what he told them to do.

Most likely they were just acting on a traditional understanding of what it means to follow Jesus rather than seriously listening to Jesus and doing what he said.

Interestingly, this verses about "why do you call me "Lord" but do not obey me" appears shortly before Jesus mentions obedience again. At the end of Matthew 7, the end of the famous sermon on the mount, Jesus told a parable saying that there were two people.

One was a wise man who heard Jesus' teachings and obeying them. He was building his house on a rock.

The other, a foolish man who heard Jesus' teachings but did not obey. He built his house on the sand.

When the storm came, the foolish man's house collapsed.

In BOTH cases, the men heard Jesus. They knew what he told them to do. But only the wise man ACTED on what Jesus told him to do.

Jesus gave a lot of commands in the sermon on the mount. Could it be that there are Christians today who think they are doing God a service, but that, in Jesus' eyes, they are just "lord, lord" people?

The best way to know, is to look at what he actually told us to do. Any suggestions?

 

[spirit1st]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Listen when i was a young man, I said all the things the pastor said i should. I thought i was saved .
I died !I felt the sting of death, fear like nothing on this planet! i was in blackness, dropping slowly toward hell!'
I begged Jesus for another chance! OI told Him i would change! then i was back in my body ! listen few teach about being born -again1 It a true Birth and a Must!
There is No salvation without a New birth!It just as profound as our first ,water from our mothers !But of our Spirit!
Lovingly in the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[jari]

Hi Jari. Thanks for that.

I realize that you are talking about being born again, and I agree with you that it's very necessary.

However, the verses I posted about "Lord,Lord" people implies that these people DO think they are born again. They probably think they are very spiritual people and based on the phrase "Lord, Lord" they probably use all kinds of phrases to indicate that they are spirit filled Christians.

BUT, despite what these people may believe about themselves or what a fantastic talk they talk, he had a problem because they would not obey him.

These people probably even DO "good" works, too. Jesus said these people would argue that they cast out demons and prophesied IN HIS NAME and STILL Jesus will say he never knew them.

There are people who deeply believe they are right with God. Despite their goodness, Jesus still had a problem with them, because they didn't do what he told them to do.

Most likely they were just acting on a traditional understanding of what it means to follow Jesus rather than seriously listening to Jesus and doing what he said.

Interestingly, this verses about "why do you call me "Lord" but do not obey me" appears shortly before Jesus mentions obedience again. At the end of Matthew 7, the end of the famous sermon on the mount, Jesus told a parable saying that there were two people.

One was a wise man who heard Jesus' teachings and obeying them. He was building his house on a rock.

The other, a foolish man who heard Jesus' teachings but did not obey. He built his house on the sand.

When the storm came, the foolish man's house collapsed.

In BOTH cases, the men heard Jesus. They knew what he told them to do. But only the wise man ACTED on what Jesus told him to do.

Jesus gave a lot of commands in the sermon on the mount. Could it be that there are Christians today who think they are doing God a service, but that, in Jesus' eyes, they are just "lord, lord" people?

The best way to know, is to look at what he actually told us to do. Any suggestions?

Ok I think i see what your saying here....

But can doing works make you born again? No they cannot. Therefore its the born again who can do God's will because they are born again. Becoming born again is more of faith thing ...

thats the way i look at it. not sure if you agree.


Also can building your house on rock (Doing by God's word) make you born again? I think its still the faith that matters.

 

[my_little_pony]

But can doing works make you born again?

Well, Jesus did tell us to obey and he gave specific instructions. I don't really know what the difference is you see between "obey" and "work".

But that aside, I thought we were talking about false ways to be saved? I am suggesting that these people DO believe they are "born again" and "saved". In fact, from what Jesus indicated, it sounds like these people believe quite strongly and use very beautiful speech like "Lord, Lord" to prove it.

And yet, Jesus said that he never knew them. So what is the difference between genuine believers who are known to the Lord, and these fakers whom the Lord does not know, but whom claim they know the Lord?

 

[jari]

Well, Jesus did tell us to obey and he gave specific instructions. I don't really know what the difference is you see between "obey" and "work".

But that aside, I thought we were talking about false ways to be saved? I am suggesting that these people DO believe they are "born again" and "saved". In fact, from what Jesus indicated, it sounds like these people believe quite strongly and use very beautiful speech like "Lord, Lord" to prove it.

And yet, Jesus said that he never knew them. So what is the difference between genuine believers who are known to the Lord, and these fakers whom the Lord does not know, but whom claim they know the Lord?

In John chapter 3 Jesus never said that inorder to become born again you must do works. He said that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in HIm should not perish but have eternal life.

One question we could ask then is, did Jesus forgot the remind about works? No because no where in bible it says you are saved by works but the contrary.

Our faith maybe made perfected by works (James) but faith is in Crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus.

So thats the way i see it. Faith si what should matter ... how can works give faith? they may only perfect it as we see God's hand in the works...

 

[my_little_pony]

Jari,

This thing about works is something you brought up. It's not what I've been promoting at all.

I quoted Jesus as asking people why they claim to worship him as lord, and yet they do not obey him and that he followed that up with people who do all kinds of wonderful things, THINKING they are following Jesus, and yet Jesus still said they were not his followers.

The point *I* am making is that there are an awful lot of people out there who think they are Christians, probably because they go to church, read their bibles, sing praise songs, and use nice sounding buzz words/phrases like "washed in the blood", "indwelt by the spirit", "coming to the lord", "praising his name" etc.

It could be that you are getting a bit worked up (haha) because I'm quoting Jesus talking about "obedience" and you see that as "salvation by works". If so, I think you may be over reacting.

What is the difference between obedience and works?

 

[spirit1st]

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
1Co_3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Mat_22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

God will not always what others tell us!
Many use others for there own glory!
Many think one person is greater than others!
When no one is greater or less in the true church! He is no respecter of persons! It never personal!

If we are to be Great? We must serve all1The best foot washer!

Our Creator bowed down and washed the feet of those HE CREATED! leaving us an Example! As His entire life did!

 

[jari]

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Amen!

was thinking of posting this verse.

 

[jari]

Jari,

This thing about works is something you brought up. It's not what I've been promoting at all.

I quoted Jesus as asking people why they claim to worship him as lord, and yet they do not obey him and that he followed that up with people who do all kinds of wonderful things, THINKING they are following Jesus, and yet Jesus still said they were not his followers.

The point *I* am making is that there are an awful lot of people out there who think they are Christians, probably because they go to church, read their bibles, sing praise songs, and use nice sounding buzz words/phrases like "washed in the blood", "indwelt by the spirit", "coming to the lord", "praising his name" etc.

It could be that you are getting a bit worked up (haha) because I'm quoting Jesus talking about "obedience" and you see that as "salvation by works". If so, I think you may be over reacting.

What is the difference between obedience and works?

Sounded like to me you were saying if person doesnt do works his definately not saved. Which i think its not a good measurement... (because salvation cannot be earned nor can it be lost by not doing) And we shouldn't judge others who is saved and who is not.

But just preach the word.

Anyway what ever is your opinion i dont wish to argue you know how i see it . hope we learn from considering each other's points.

God bless

 

[my_little_pony]

Jari, are you aware that you've not once responded to my point? Each time I bring it up you chide me about how we are not saved by works, even though I've never once said that we are.

The verse I originally brought up is:

MT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

MT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

MT 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I said that these people obviously believe they are saved. They say very nice things about the Lord etc, and yet they are not saved. BUT, they believe they are saved.

Can you comment on that?

Sounded like to me you were saying if person doesnt do works his definately not saved.

Why would it "sound" to you like I was saying that, when I never said anything even hinting at that? I've tried several times now to get you to question YOURSELF on why you see something in my words that are not there. I've asked you a few times now:

Well, Jesus did tell us to obey and he gave specific instructions. I don't really know what the difference is you see between "obey" and "work".

It's not clear to my why you keep missing this in preference for something I've clearly not said.

 

[jari]

Jari, are you aware that you've not once responded to my point? Each time I bring it up you chide me about how we are not saved by works, even though I've never once said that we are.

The verse I originally brought up is:



I said that these people obviously believe they are saved. They say very nice things about the Lord etc, and yet they are not saved. BUT, they believe they are saved.

Can you comment on that?



Why would it "sound" to you like I was saying that, when I never said anything even hinting at that? I've tried several times now to get you to question YOURSELF on why you see something in my words that are not there. I've asked you a few times now:



It's not clear to my why you keep missing this in preference for something I've clearly not said.

I think the people who said Lord Lord and told they did things in Lord's name thought their actions would get them in to heaven. But its actually grace.
So they probably didnt consider them self saved... in any correct sense.

But they thouht they were ok with God because they did those things.

But Jesus said He never knew them.

they didnt have personal relationship with Him . They just did works in attemp to please God.


The difference between Obey and Words .... well the difference with right kind of obeying is and wrong kind of is in my opinion the motivation. are people doing works to earn heaven? or are they just doing it for the Lord.....

 

[my_little_pony]

The difference between Obey and Words .... well the difference with right kind of obeying is and wrong kind of is in my opinion the motivation. are people doing works to earn heaven? or are they just doing it for the Lord.....

Okay Jari, thanks for addressing the points, particularly the one about obedience vs works. So far, I feel you've been using the word "works" in a way which implies that works are somehow bad, which I disagree with. But, since you've included the word "motivation" in your explanation, I can now agree with you fully.

However, I think only God has perfect understanding of our motivations. As Christians with brains, we can sometimes try to discern if someone appears to have a wrong motivation for what they do, but it takes a lot of wisdom and consideration, or you could end up condemning someone as "working his way to Heaven"when he really is just trying to obey Jesus.

But they thouht they were ok with God because they did those things.

But Jesus said He never knew them.

In the example scripture, I don't think Jesus said "I never knew you" because of what the people were doing, but because of what they were NOT doing.

Look again at what he said; "why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? and then went on to list some actions that these people do. The descriptions of those actions is not a prohibition against works, but rather, trying to get the people to stop doing their OWN works and to start doing what he, Jesus the savior, wanted them to do.

That is why I said earlier, several times, that the only way to know which category we are in (i.e. those who say lord lord but do not obey OR those who say lord lord and DO obey) is to look at what Jesus told us to do and then examine if we are applying those teachings.

Throughout the gospels there are over 100 direct commands of Jesus and something like another 100 implied commands, so there is a lot to discuss.

Remember, when I say "commands" and "works" I am speaking in the context of "obey" which is what Jesus told us to do. I am not talking about doing these things so that we can "earn" salvation. I really hope we won't have to keep going back to that same old ground over and over again in order to have a discussion about obedience to Jesus.

So, how do you see it?

 

[jari]

Okay Jari, thanks for addressing the points, particularly the one about obedience vs works. So far, I feel you've been using the word "works" in a way which implies that works are somehow bad, which I disagree with. But, since you've included the word "motivation" in your explanation, I can now agree with you fully.

However, I think only God has perfect understanding of our motivations. As Christians with brains, we can sometimes try to discern if someone appears to have a wrong motivation for what they do, but it takes a lot of wisdom and consideration, or you could end up condemning someone as "working his way to Heaven"when he really is just trying to obey Jesus.



In the example scripture, I don't think Jesus said "I never knew you" because of what the people were doing, but because of what they were NOT doing.

Look again at what he said; "why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? and then went on to list some actions that these people do. The descriptions of those actions is not a prohibition against works, but rather, trying to get the people to stop doing their OWN works and to start doing what he, Jesus the savior, wanted them to do.

That is why I said earlier, several times, that the only way to know which category we are in (i.e. those who say lord lord but do not obey OR those who say lord lord and DO obey) is to look at what Jesus told us to do and then examine if we are applying those teachings.

Throughout the gospels there are over 100 direct commands of Jesus and something like another 100 implied commands, so there is a lot to discuss.

Remember, when I say "commands" and "works" I am speaking in the context of "obey" which is what Jesus told us to do. I am not talking about doing these things so that we can "earn" salvation. I really hope we won't have to keep going back to that same old ground over and over again in order to have a discussion about obedience to Jesus.

So, how do you see it?

he did say I never knew you in one scripture. that's something too, being known by God.

because anyone can do works and things but who does God's true will? only those who are God's children who are known by God.

thats the way i see it...

 

[my_little_pony]

because anyone can do works and things but who does God's true will? only those who are God's children who are known by God.

Jari, the problem here is that, in the context of what Jesus said about obedience, what you are saying here just sounds like religious jargon.

It sounds like something any "Lord, Lord" person would say.

And you are correct that anyone "can" do the works of God, but very few people actually do.

For example, lets take what happened in the chat room yesterday. You called me "sir". So, I brought up a command from Jesus where he tells us not to use special titles like "Father", "master", or "teacher" as examples. Matthew 23:8 up to verse 12, I think.

The word "Sir" is a shortened form of "Sire" which has the same meaning as "father", and the word "Mr." is a shortened form of "master".

Despite the fact that Jesus was very clear in his instructions, you argue that he didn't really mean what he said.

ChildofFaith argued this same point saying that, because his mother is his mother, he will always call her "mother". He didn't address his desire to call her "mother" in the context of what Jesus said. It was all based on the emotional fact that she is his mother and therefore he must call her "mother".

Can you see how easy it is for Christians to say "lord, lord" and yet disregard the commands of Jesus?

 

[Beans]

Hmm. Interesting discussion, it's a shame it stalled.

I can agree with Jari that those people saying "Lord Lord" were probably not saved. The difference has absolutely everything to do with the motivations of the people.

I think the people who said Lord Lord and told they did things in Lord's name thought their actions would get them in to heaven. But its actually grace.
So they probably didnt consider them self saved... in any correct sense.

But they thouht they were ok with God because they did those things.

But Jesus said He never knew them.

they didnt have personal relationship with Him . They just did works in attemp to please God.

The difference between Obey and Words .... well the difference with right kind of obeying is and wrong kind of is in my opinion the motivation. are people doing works to earn heaven? or are they just doing it for the Lord.....

Yes, it's true if they thought doing those religious sounding things would get them into heaven then they were sorely deceived. However they sound more like the Pharisees or the folks down at my local church who perform religious rituals so that they can get the recognition of Man!

I agree with Pony, that if someone was really interested in doing something for the Lord they would try to follow what the Master is actually recorded as saying (in the Bible).

Throughout the gospels there are over 100 direct commands of Jesus and something like another 100 implied commands, so there is a lot to discuss.

Sounds a bit exaggerated. How about some scriptures?

 

[Donnie Ducati]

If its false then your not saved.

Two wrongs don't make wronger.

 

[Beans]

If its false then your not saved.

Two wrongs don't make wronger.

HUH? :huh:

 

[Miss Elly]

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

he gave all a measure of faith so all mankind could be saved

Faith in what? That Jesus died on the cross for our sins, that's what! He gives all mankind a measure of faith, that does not mean they will use it and repent of their sins. Look at your first scripture, "But without faith it impossible to please Him". So everyone does not choose to use the faith that God gave them. Some have faith that a cow is their ancestor, some have faith that Mary the mother of Jesus will save him, others believe in Allah, etc. etc. So they do have faith, just in the wrong things!

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Being saved or not saved

I been reading this past year a lot of stuff here at talk Jesus
and it amazes me the issue's, which are important, that have been touched on.
What I see quite clearly though is noticing that there seems to be a lack of discipleship here. Not from the site itself but the questions asked as if no pastor or headship from the members given locality, where they live are being helped from the pastor or church
And this is totally sad to see. I just thought Id share.

Please if this describes your pastor who does not know an answer have him come here and ask Chad or whoever you know is qualified by the Spirit of God.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I agree with Pony, that if someone was really interested in doing something for the Lord they would try to follow what the Master is actually recorded as saying (in the Bible).

In my case, it was precisely the opposite; it wasn't until I fell in love with God's Word (the Bible) that I became interested in and empowered to do the works God has assigned me to do (Eph 2:10).

SLE