For Deep Thinkers

[Jonathan_Gale]

Thank you. And for the record, I never said that it was both.

So why are two separate genealogies given? Why did the people from whom Luke got his information want Joseph traced back to Nathan? And why did the community of Matthew want Joseph traced back to Solomon? (Hopefully we can get back to this.)

Doesn't matter. The "purpose" doesn't change the fact that scripture records two different genealogies for Joseph (however Jesus is tied in).

And I haven't "forgotten," because there are reasons why two genealogies for Joseph are written (and they are because of Jesus).

To say that "neither is wrong" IS to say that Joseph had two daddies. But nothing can be done if you wish to think with your emotional anger and flubbery instead of with your reason and intellect. So... prove to everyone that you don't use your brain.

How is it wrong to point out that IT IS WRITTEN, that Matthew gives a different genealogy for Joseph than Luke does?

It's delusional to say otherwise, not to mention that it handles scripture deceitfully.

And this is why I say that I cannot fathom how you think. Why? Because I never said otherwise. I didn't omit the fact of Jesus being born of the Holy Spirit and conceived in virgin Mary, because THAT WAS NOT THE TOPIC. You messed up again. Please by all means go back and read through the thread and prove me wrong.

The topic is that MATTHEW gives a different genealogy for JOSEPH than does LUKE.

Can you at least be honest enough to admit that? ( If not, then please for your own well being, seek medical help for your cognitive dissonance.)

My apologies. I think you did admit that... here:
So then we're done and agreed.

Rhema



Except for wrapping up some minor loose ends.
And that is irrelevant to the FACT that MATTHEW gives a different genealogy for JOSEPH than does LUKE.

Why are you arguing about the virgin birth when that's not the topic, nor was it ever in contention? (A bit absurd, you know.)

Well then I'm glad you repented and changed your perspective to understand that the words as actually written show that Matthew gives a different genealogy for Joseph than does Luke.

Since you are hung up on this... and emotionally need to hear these words... when looking at Jesus' family tree, our third grader will see that Matthew gives a different genealogy for Joseph than does Luke. YOU had a meltdown over this. I hope you recover.

Seek help. When are you going to stop lying and admit that MATTHEW gives a different genealogy for JOSEPH than does LUKE. Oh wait, I'm sorry. You did.
But that's the ONLY point I've been discussing. You keep bringing in all this other unrelated nonsense that I never spoke about. Seek help.

But the short answer to your question is that there IS no lineage of Mary given. But it is stated that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, and that Elizabeth was of the daughters of Araon.

Does that help you?

Good question. Why is that important?

Uh... you DO realize that "titles" are not actually in the scripture itself, Mr. Gale. Don't you? Why are you prancing around obscure and irrelevant topics?

But I am glad that we finally agree that MATTHEW gives a different genealogy for JOSEPH than does LUKE.

Then you tell me... WHY was Joseph's genealogy even included at all since YOU think it to be irrelevant?

And a normal person would see that the two genealogies of Jesus Christ are different, starting at JOSEPH.

Mr. Gale, you brought MY intellect into question. And now you think to compare your's to God?

Wait... What? You think God to be foolish? That God has foolishness ??

What doesn't matter to you matters to me. What's irrelevant to you is relevant to me. Joseph didn't die for my sins and rise from the dead, Jesus did. If you believe Joseph the carpenter is your lord and savior, suit yourself. And btw, this thread is about soul and afterlife, you derailed it with the non sequitur of Joseph, not me.

Please seek help. As previously stated, I do accept WHAT IS ACTUALLY written in Romans 1:3.
And this is what is actually written:

περι του υιου αυτου του γενομενου εκ σπερματος δαβιδ κατα σαρκα
And I quite accept that that is what is actually written.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;(Romans 1:3 KJV)
Indeed Jesus was MADE of the seed of David. But the woman doesn't provide SEED, now, does she......

(You truly need to learn how to think these things through.)

The only help I seek is the Holy Spirit, the Helper God promised and sent. The Seed provided by the woman is traced back to Gen. 3:15 -

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed;

Unless you believe Cain the murderer was this Seed, this was only fulfilled by Jesus. Your perveiced "intellect" has blinded you to see what's plain as day to everybody else.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Jonathan_Gale

Oh dear... we never got back to that.

Rhema

You're asking a loaded question with a false premise. JESUS has one genealogy traced back to Nathan, JESUS has another genealogy traced back to Solomon. "The book of genealogy of Jesus Christ", that's the first words of the entire New Testament. If you wanna talk about Joseph, go find somebody else.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hi Chris,

That's not quite an accurate portrayal. Both passages list the genealogy of Joseph, not Christ.

Lol, this is what you're getting really getting at, aren't you. How pathetic. This may be a shock to you, I read the exact same verses you read, but you just purposeful choose to ignore the reason for which these two verses were written in the first place:

The book of genealogy of JESUS CHRIST ... (Mattew 1:1 KJV)
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
(Matthew 1:16 KJV)
And JESUS ... being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
(Luke 3:23 KJV)

If you keep pounding on Joseph, take a dose of your own medicine:

Doesn't matter.

And that is irrelevant

Please seek help.

Goodbye and have a nice day, Mr. Rhema.

 

[Oseas]

Wrong again. Animals do not have souls

the human gender has body , soul, and spirit

animals have body and soul, don't have spirit

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

That's not quite an accurate portrayal. Both passages list the genealogy of Joseph, not Christ.

The genealogy in Matthew specifically ends with "Jacob who begat JOSEPH husband of Mary." There is no genealogy of Mary given, although it does state that Jesus was born of Mary.

The genealogy in Luke, acknowledges Jesus supposed father, then gives the genealogy of JOSEPH son of ELI - "Jesus ... being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. There is no genealogy of Mary given, but merely states that Joseph was not Jesus' father.

The Scripture is VERY clear on this -

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.​

(Matthew 1:16 KJV)​

​

And Jesus ... being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,​

(Luke 3:23 KJV)​

Why do people bear false witness about what is written in scripture?


No. It isn't.

The name MARY isn't even found in the text of Luke. By what stretch of the lying imagination can one state that the genealogy given in Luke is that of Mary's when her NAME IS NOT EVEN WRITTEN?

Why do people need to bear false witness about what is ACTUALLY written and deceitfully handle scripture ?


They both present a genealogy of JOSEPH. To say otherwise is to lie.

Do we REALLY need to do that?

Rhema

Hello @Rhema,

'New Testament registers were given to certify the Messianic lineage of Christ Jesus and so establish His credentials and claim to the throne. By going back through Joseph's lineage to Abraham, the father of the Hebrew nation, and thence to David, his son Solomon and thereafter to all the kings of Judah that proceeded from his loins, Matthew demonstrated that Jesus had the royal right to the long promised throne of Messiah's father David.

Luke also traces the Lord's lineage back to David but through his mother Mary whose issue came not through the kingly pedigree but by way of another of David's sons, Nathan. This was to prove that Jesus also had the natural blood right to David's throne, Joseph being merely the foster or legal father and not his actual parent. Thus Mary is seen to not only be related to the priestly family of the Levitical tribe (maternally, cp. Luke 1:5 and 1:36), she must also be of the Tribe of Judah, the family of David (paternally, cp. Psa 132:11; Acts 2:30; Rom. 1:3-4' Rev. 22:16 etc).

Yet Luke's Gospel register accomplishes far more than even this. By going back to Adam in Mary's family tree, Christ Jesus is seen to be the 'seed of the woman' in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy promising and foretelling the coming Messiah. This promise of a woman having a 'seed' and not an egg was a veiled allusion to the virgin conception as no fertilized egg (a 'seed') and is predicted with no mention of a man. Still there is more, for Luke carries the register back to God revealing that not only was God the Creator and (in that sense) Father of Adam. He is the answer to the problem of the 'missing' father in Genesis 3:15. God is the real Father of the Messiah, Jesus the Christ.'
* (Quoted from 'The Chronology of the Old Testament' by Dr Floyd Nolen Jones.)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

The Genealogy of the Lord Jesus Christ - (Matthew 1)
('The Throne of His Father David')

(1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
(2) Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
(3) And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
(4) And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
(5) And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
(6) And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
(7) And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
(8) And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
(9) And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
(10) And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
(11) And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
(12) And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
(13) And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
(14) And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
(15) And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
(16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

The Genealogy of the Lord Jesus Christ - (Luke 3)
('The Seed of The Woman' Gen. 3:15)

(23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
(24) Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
(25) Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
(26) Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
(27) Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
(28) Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
(29) Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
(30) Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
(31) Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
(32) Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
(33) Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
(34) Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
(35) Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
(36) Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
(37) Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
(38) Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

* Matthew 1:16:-
'And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary,
of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.'

* Luke 3:23:-
'And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age,
being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Heli,'

* Joseph:- 'Son' - (reckoned, 'according to law' - 'of Heli', by betrothal to Heli's daughter (Mary): (therefore, 'also according to law', (cp, Matt 1:20, Luke 2:5 with Deut 22: 23-24) Husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus, Who is called 'Messiah' 'The son of Adam' , 'Who was the son of God'

 

[Garee]

the human gender has body , soul, and spirit

animals have body and soul, don't have spirit

All living things have the spirit essence of life. Christ is the Father ode all spirits or breath of life.

Mankind is subject to salvation. Green grass can be mowed down .

The whole living creation moans in anticipation of the new heavens and earth . All life will be destroyed as we on the last day under the Sun receive our new incorruptible bodies they will not grow old as in dying, leading toward death (destruction up in smoke)

 

[Garee]

Hello @Rhema,

'New Testament registers were given to certify the Messianic lineage of Christ Jesus and so establish His credentials and claim to the throne. By going back through Joseph's lineage to Abraham, the father of the Hebrew nation, and thence to David, his son Solomon and thereafter to all the kings of Judah that proceeded from his loins, Matthew demonstrated that Jesus had the royal right to the long promised throne of Messiah's father David.

Luke also traces the Lord's lineage back to David but through his mother Mary whose issue came not through the kingly pedigree but by way of another of David's sons, Nathan. This was to prove that Jesus also had the natural blood right to David's throne, Joseph being merely the foster or legal father and not his actual parent. Thus Mary is seen to not only be related to the priestly family of the Levitical tribe (maternally, cp. Luke 1:5 and 1:36), she must also be of the Tribe of Judah, the family of David (paternally, cp. Psa 132:11; Acts 2:30; Rom. 1:3-4' Rev. 22:16 etc).

Yet Luke's Gospel register accomplishes far more than even this. By going back to Adam in Mary's family tree, Christ Jesus is seen to be the 'seed of the woman' in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy promising and foretelling the coming Messiah. This promise of a woman having a 'seed' and not an egg was a veiled allusion to the virgin conception as no fertilized egg (a 'seed') and is predicted with no mention of a man. Still there is more, for Luke carries the register back to God revealing that not only was God the Creator and (in that sense) Father of Adam. He is the answer to the problem of the 'missing' father in Genesis 3:15. God is the real Father of the Messiah, Jesus the Christ.'
* (Quoted from 'The Chronology of the Old Testament' by Dr Floyd Nolen Jones.)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks .

I would offer. Two different kinds of seeds. . . God creates all things in kinds. Both kinds revealed by the work of one seed Christ . Two Genesis' as generations . (1) The first born the generation of Adam the freshly seed a dying generation. And (2) the new born again seed .the generation of Christ the generation revealed by the flesh of the Son of man Jesus through the unseen power of God that was yoked with Jesus .

That promised . . "this generation " at the time it was spoken was the 33 year window when it ended it began the last days under the Sun, a time of great tribulation like never before or ever again .

The veil is rent there was jewish King of kings sitting in the Holy place. Satan fell (Revelation 20) the father of lies could no longer deceive the whole world, all the nations that God was a fleshly Jewish man. . the reformation came and removed the abomination of desolation Kings in Israel... .

Below the seed of mankind . . mocking the seed of Christ with a dark song to the tune of the flesh "Darkness becomes Me" Hellow darkness. . . my friend ?

Matthew 11:15-17King James Version15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.






Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hello @Rhema,

'New Testament registers were given to certify the Messianic lineage of Christ Jesus and so establish His credentials and claim to the throne. By going back through Joseph's lineage to Abraham, the father of the Hebrew nation, and thence to David, his son Solomon and thereafter to all the kings of Judah that proceeded from his loins, Matthew demonstrated that Jesus had the royal right to the long promised throne of Messiah's father David.

Luke also traces the Lord's lineage back to David but through his mother Mary whose issue came not through the kingly pedigree but by way of another of David's sons, Nathan. This was to prove that Jesus also had the natural blood right to David's throne, Joseph being merely the foster or legal father and not his actual parent. Thus Mary is seen to not only be related to the priestly family of the Levitical tribe (maternally, cp. Luke 1:5 and 1:36), she must also be of the Tribe of Judah, the family of David (paternally, cp. Psa 132:11; Acts 2:30; Rom. 1:3-4' Rev. 22:16 etc).

Yet Luke's Gospel register accomplishes far more than even this. By going back to Adam in Mary's family tree, Christ Jesus is seen to be the 'seed of the woman' in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy promising and foretelling the coming Messiah. This promise of a woman having a 'seed' and not an egg was a veiled allusion to the virgin conception as no fertilized egg (a 'seed') and is predicted with no mention of a man. Still there is more, for Luke carries the register back to God revealing that not only was God the Creator and (in that sense) Father of Adam. He is the answer to the problem of the 'missing' father in Genesis 3:15. God is the real Father of the Messiah, Jesus the Christ.'
* (Quoted from 'The Chronology of the Old Testament' by Dr Floyd Nolen Jones.)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Don't bother to cast pearls before a swine. He's probably a troll or a delusional snob with willingful blindness.

 

[Hekuran]

Don't bother to cast pearls before a swine. He's probably a troll or a delusional snob with willingful blindness.

Regardless of differences of opinion on how to address the differences in Matthew and Lukes genealogies, no-one should be talking about another member of the forum like this.

 

[Garee]

It would seem the two genealogies mixed together represent the two kinds of witnesses of God with the word "two" representing the witness that Christ as God has spoke. . The unseen law of faith. .Let. . . . . and it as flesh seen was very good .(The rudiments of this world ). . .Glory of God. . . good .And he breathed life giving spirit very, very, very good . . God image good. .

The son of Joseph, (Meaning He adds) which was the son of Heli down to Enos used to replace Abel the martyr murdered by the father of lies. . . a murderer from that beginning ,The second born represents those born again. . . second birth . or you could say the grafting in of the gentiles from the very beginning. Something I keep on the back burner open for suggestions

Matthew the book of born again generation in regard to . . . the seed (spiritual not seen) singular it is Christ the anointing Holy Spirt of God. , The mixing of the nations to form one new called by God Christian. Same Abraham Father of all the nations . Father of all spirit life . . .not the father of dying flesh. . flesh gives birth the flesh. God's one Spirit alone can give birth to dying spirits and promise them a new body that will never die or grow old as in dying. .

Matthew:1 The book of the (born again) generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.,

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

God bless.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Regardless of differences of opinion on how to address the differences in Matthew and Lukes genealogies, no-one should be talking about another member of the forum like this.

That was not a collision of difference opinions, that was shameless gaslighting, which has totally derailed the original topic of this thread. The more you feed him, the more audacious he grows. If you consider yourself a spiritually matur, then follow the Lord's instruction, shake the dust off your sandals and move on.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

This thread is somewhat obnoxious with such horrible attitudes and cantankerous arrogance.
It is being closed for moderation