Ga. Student Fights Expulsion Over Beliefs

[Kit Carson]

I agree with everything you said! Especially about how the church has fallen for the trap of following society's dictates on how we should think. That permissive attitude you talked about.

I think a very telling point in all of this is, NO ONE here has yet DEFENDED the woman counselor!! A fellow Christian!!

She is treated by her own as a social pariah (She merely has a different opinion than others!), while we are quick to defend and extend love toward unrepentant sinners. What's wrong with that picture?????

We are so knee-jerk and reactionary when it comes to gays (because we let them brainwash us) that we tend to have an instinctive Pavlov's dogs response towards them.

Love the sinner and hate the sin is an excuse not to cause waves or rock the boat. The homosexual movement has made great strides in their agenda, thanks to that attitude.

Lastly, why has this thread focused on gay rights (they have more rights than us, thanks to us), when the only real question is, does the Christian counselor in question have a right to her opinion, to freedom of speech and conscience, without fear of reprisals?? For crying out loud, people!

It is despicable that she should be required to attend gay pride events and take sensitivity training (brainwashing 101). Anyone that attends such things under the guise of love the sinner, hate the sin, is merely deceiving himself.

Hey:

I am sorry I was not more forceful in the honorable counselors defense. I guess I was slack in that. Or maybe it was on my mind that I am not your standard modern Christian. Many things I say will step on toes. And I will do it with a grin. And with the confidence of the conviction that I am right.

One of my prayers to God a few months ago was ......I do not know what job you have in mind for me, but if you need an enforcer to run around and bust the chops of the evil , the crime, the wrong, I hereby volunteer.

Yes the counselor is under attack for the simple belief in what is right and to fit in she has to conform to the wishes of the modern world. Schools and the intelligent of today, have no desire or wish to even know God, let alone even realize the fact that simple laws of morality even without the guidance of God would benefit all.

So as I type this I pray that God will provide her a new assignment and not have to bow her head to the wishes of the world.

Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

Yes the counselor is under attack for the simple belief in what is right and to fit in she has to conform to the wishes of the modern world. Schools and the intelligent of today, have no desire or wish to even know God, let alone even realize the fact that simple laws of morality even without the guidance of God would benefit all. So as I type this I pray that God will provide her a new assignment and not have to bow her head to the wishes of the world.

Agreed again, and yes, I also believe she needs a new profession, one where she can be free to live according to her Godly conscience. This world hates us, so we are forced to conform to them, or be excoriated by them if we don't.

But the world has the nerve to call Christians intolerant!

 

[dannibear]

I agree with everything you said! Especially about how the church has fallen for the trap of following society's dictates on how we should think. That permissive attitude you talked about.

I think a very telling point in all of this is, NO ONE here has yet DEFENDED the woman counselor!! A fellow Christian!!

She is treated by her own as a social pariah (She merely has a different opinion than others!), while we are quick to defend and extend love toward unrepentant sinners. What's wrong with that picture?????

....Isn't God's love unconditional? If we are to be more
like Jesus, we must also have unconditional love. ^^^^^

 

[dannibear]

Another form of the article with more info:

A conservative Christian graduate student in Georgia who wants to counsel LGBT people that homosexuality is immoral took her case to a federal appeals court in Atlanta on Tuesday.
Jennifer Keeton (photo) is seeking a court order allowing her to take part in clinical training at Augusta State University as part of the school’s counselor education program so she can graduate and turn to practicing conversion therapy, work to “cure” gay people and tell them that homosexuality is morally wrong.
The school put Keeton on academic probation and threatened to expel her unless she abided by a remediation plan that included having her attend gay events and mingle with LGBT people.
Keeton lost her initial court case and turned to the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for help. Her attorneys argued that Keeton’s First Amendment rights were violated; the school countered that its counseling program would risk its accreditation if it didn’t hold her to a code of ethics that requires students to counsel LGBT people. “We’re all entitled to our own religious beliefs, but counselors cannot use their religion to discriminate against students who come to them for help,” Louise Melling, the ACLU’s deputy legal director, said Tuesday in a prepared statement.

As part of the medical academy in my high
school, one of the first things we learned were ethics.
I cannot say I don't want to treat someone because
they have aids, or they have a different belief than
I do, or they are a different race, etc etc. As a counselor,
she is supposed to be professional and empathic. She
can't judge people while in a professional career
like the one she has chosen. Neither can I refuse to
give life saving care to someone because they are
a homosexual. I would still care for the person because
Jesus LOVES them unconditionally, repentant or not!
Our lives are an example for non believers! How would
it look to other people for example, if I said Jesus loves
them but I refused to give health care to someone
because of their differing beliefs? That is not love, it
is being judgmental. Homosexuality is wrong, and yes it is
a sin, but she is going about it the wrong way in her profession.

 

[Peace Seeker]

....Isn't God's love unconditional? If we are to be more like Jesus, we must also have unconditional love. ^^^^^

Yes, I would say that, ultimately, His unsearchable love is unconditional, and I know we are to love others as best we can, as He loves us.
Then again - and maybe you can help me if I don't have a proper understanding here - we don't go to Heaven unless we repent and accept Him as Lord. So is salvation unconditional ?

God also punishes and destroyed unrepentant sinners many times in the Bible, did He not?

Did King David love the unGodly with unconditional love?

Psalm 139:21) "Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you"?

Was Jesus showing unconditional love in Luke 19:27?

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me".

Are unrepentant sinners Jesus' friends or enemies?

So I respectfully ask, what do you mean by unconditional love, and how do we, in tune with the bible, show it to others?

I doubt any of us are able to give unconditional love to another human being. We would have to be perfect in order to do so.

 

[dannibear]

I doubt any of us are able to give unconditional love to another human being. We would have to be perfect in order to do so.

Jesus was!
The Bible tells us that "God is Love" (1 John 4:8).
The most well known verse is John 3:16,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave
his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life." So one way God defines love is in the act
of giving. Another great verse about God's love
is found in Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth
his love toward us, in that, while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us." In this verse and in
John 3:16, we find no conditions placed on God's
love for us. God doesn't say, "as soon as you clean
up your act, I'll love you; " nor does He say, "I'll
sacrifice my Son if you promise to love Me." In
fact, in Romans 5:8, we find just the opposite.
God wants us to know that His love is unconditional,
so He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for us
while we were still unlovable sinners. We didn't
have to get clean, and we didn't have to make
any promises to God before we could experience
His love. His love for us has always existed, and
because of that, He did all the giving and sacrificing
long before we were even aware that we needed His love.

God is Love, and His love is very different from
human love. God's love is unconditional, and it's
not based on feelings or emotions. He doesn't love us
because we're lovable or because we make Him feel
good; He loves us because He is love. He created
us to have a loving relationship with Him, and He
sacrificed His own Son (who also willingly died for us)
to restore that relationship.

Whether or not homosexuals accept the gift of Christ's
free love, Christ has given it.
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy,

because of the great love with which he loved us,

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made

us alive together with Christ— by grace you have

been saved—

 

[agua]

I think a very telling point in all of this is, NO ONE here has yet DEFENDED the woman counselor!! A fellow Christian!!

She is treated by her own as a social pariah (She merely has a different opinion than others!), while we are quick to defend and extend love toward unrepentant sinners. What's wrong with that picture?????

No one has treated Miss Keeton as a social pariah that's exaggeration. A pariah is an outcast. Christians must observe and keep each other accountable to godly standards. Why can we assume the homosexual clients are unrepentant when it's entirely possible some would seek counselling concerning their sin ?

My concern is if a Christian wants to with hold help based on a particular type of sin.

We are so knee-jerk and reactionary when it comes to gays (because we let them brainwash us) that we tend to have an instinctive Pavlov's dogs response towards them.

Love the sinner and hate the sin is an excuse not to cause waves or rock the boat. The homosexual movement has made great strides in their agenda, thanks to that attitude.

The love the sinner hate the sin attitude applies to all sinners, not just homosexuals. We shouldn't class homosexuals as a particular class of unrepentant sinner deserving extra condemnation.
I don't condone any sin.

Lastly, why has this thread focused on gay rights (they have more rights than us, thanks to us), when the only real question is, does the Christian counselor in question have a right to her opinion, to freedom of speech and conscience, without fear of reprisals?? For crying out loud, people!

This thread is definitely not focused on gay rights it is entirely about a Christian providing help to a sinner, which in this case is a homosexual. This seems to be a sore point with you and I'm not sure why.

It is despicable that she should be required to attend gay pride events and take sensitivity training (brainwashing 101). Anyone that attends such things under the guise of love the sinner, hate the sin, is merely deceiving himself.

I fully agree she should not be required to attend the gay pride events etc. The concern with this issue though is whether a Christian should with hold treatment to a sinner. Of course no Christian should condone any sin but we definitely should give aid and assistance whenever possible.

Who is our neighbour?

 

[Kit Carson]

No one has treated Miss Keeton as a social pariah that's exaggeration. A pariah is an outcast. Christians must observe and keep each other accountable to godly standards. Why can we assume the homosexual clients are unrepentant when it's entirely possible some would seek counselling concerning their sin ?

My concern is if a Christian wants to with hold help based on a particular type of sin.

The love the sinner hate the sin attitude applies to all sinners, not just homosexuals. We shouldn't class homosexuals as a particular class of unrepentant sinner deserving extra condemnation.
I don't condone any sin.

This thread is definitely not focused on gay rights it is entirely about a Christian providing help to a sinner, which in this case is a homosexual. This seems to be a sore point with you and I'm not sure why.
I fully agree she should not be required to attend the gay pride events etc. The concern with this issue though is whether a Christian should with hold treatment to a sinner. Of course no Christian should condone any sin but we definitely should give aid and assistance whenever possible.

Who is our neighbour?

I am not sure if there are scriptures to support what I am about to say or not, you see Gods word teaches us how to live and how to conduct ourselves in daily life. The scriptures are written to teach us and guide us but in them there are not many examples of common sense or just daily life and way, not written down, but the entire word of God in its total context teaches us that the constant acceptance of sin and things bad simply takes us and society down and allows all things to degrade.

This unconditional love thing really gets to me. No matter what a person does we are so liberal in modern times that anything and everything is tolerated. This is not Gods way, not at all. Sure he will forgive the sinner of any sin, he forgave me and I am a rascal at times, but I do know who the boss is and I fear God for sure. But it is a respectful fear , one that allows me to just talk to him like a friend about anything. So just like we are to admonish a fellow Christian several times and try to talk to them and if they do not listen or wish to follow the truth, then we are to walk away from them. This does not mean to not provide help or to view them with non compassion, or to be mean , but to tolerate any sin constantly and simply say something like, I will pray for you and see you next Sunday is wrong. As this does nothing to convince them that what they are doing is wrong. All this attitude does is show them that this unconditional love will allow all things and there are no consequences for any action.

This is Satan's way of turning Gods word around and using it against the believer and allowing sin to enter into things with extreme acceptance and tolerance. Each allowance of a sin and acceptance of a way of sin, only leads to more acceptance and more allowance and soon all sins are acceptable due to this modern day unconditional love nonsense.

No one is saying to not provide help to any sinner, to not provide help and or mental or physical health care to anyone, but to take all due precautions while doing so.

In the case of this young college girl who is faced with this situation there is no way in her situation that she can even say........homosexual activity is wrong. As soon as she says this a complaint is put into play against her or anyone who will say this, and unless she bows her head and accepts the fact that all institutions like this say homosexual activity is allowed and acceptable, then she is fighting a lost battle. One alone in such a situation cannot win, simply because of the attitude of today that this is an acceptable behavior. Look at the world, and how it has become called normal. Go to web sites and see how this homosexual situation now calls Jesus a homosexual and how they turn words around to accuse Jesus of being an enunch and turn this around to say even Jesus was a homosexual. This is a major deal and one that is taking us down the path to some really bad results.

We see this unconditional love thing in all walk of life and in all sin and in all crime. The modern attitude is to simply allow it.

And all eyes are blind, God tried and tried to show all from the old testament to present day that sin and allowance of it only caused those who do allow it to suffer the results of the sin. So he himself destroyed some people, even destroyed the entire world once, and still we do not learn. Still we continue to tolerate sin and allow all things . This sin and allowance gradually takes over our society and our own religion and soon it is simply called normal. The breaking down of values and morals and family structures and the simple morals of life to live by are absorbed by the sin and we continue to simply say.........we should love them.

It makes me sick, I hereby protest!!! Wake up, stop your sleep and take the veil off your eyes. Listen to what God has taught us, and stop all this unconditional love nonsense.

Jesus made such a simple statement in one of his teaching parables. He said remove the rotten apple from the barrel before it contaminates the rest of them. Such a simple statement and so true.

God does wish us to show compassion, to help and never turn away anyone, but he also puts a limit on things. He wishes us to uphold his laws of simple morality and to live by them. Common sense says that continual acceptance of all sin only allows it to creep into society and take it down.

So think about that for a bit, and for me there is not one thing wrong with voicing my opinion that sin is wrong, any sin, from homosexuality to murder to holding up the corner store , it is all wrong and those who commit them should suffer lasting and quick consequences.

So it is an overall situation with all sin and all permissive allowance, in my town some now have bars on their windows , they live in fear and when I run a service call they lock the front door behind me and lock me in their home, they fear those on the street, and soon if all of you continue to allow, you will also one day have bars on your windows and doors to keep sin out. I carry a .45 many times when I know I am going into such and area, and God does not tell me I have to lay down and allow them to harm me. He tells me if need be I can fight the sin of their actions.

Common sense folks........God says use it. God says I will punish those who allow and accept , I have done this through time, and I will again. I have tried to teach you how to live , but you reject it.
I taught you how to show compassion, how to pray, and how to live your life, but I also taught you that continual acceptance of sin will only exact consequences.

And we see them today, we see how our world has become and we see it daily on the news and in our lives.

Wake up......and use your common sense. Listen to God and what he has told us all, listen to him cry for us, and understand that one day he will again destroy all who allow and conduct sin. He has told us that he will come and destroy the world again, that he will only tolerate so much and then he will act. He has told us this looking forward and seeing how things will be.

Kit Carson and the ............truth. And I will stand by it till the day I am dead myself. I also cry for the world. But I will not accept the modern way. God says not to.
Very simple.

 

[eddieb]

when the whole "tolerance" thing came out i knew it was apart of the gay agenda. it is an attempt to force you to accept something you clearly disagree with and that is and has been for many years unacceptable in socioty. i am going to be brutally honest here. gay people turn my stomach literaly. i feel queezy around them. however i have, BY THE GRACE OF GOD, and by his spirit helped someone once. we was gonna take communion and the spirit told me someone isnt right and i warned the people what the word says about taking communion and not being right with God. this man admited it. another man in the group had a word of knowledge about things in his house he needed to get rid of.the gay man wept that night. we all laid hands on him and prayed. he was genuine in his repentance and was delivered. many months later i visited an old church and what do you know he was a deacon there. i felt bad then for judging him. i spoke with him and could sence the spirit on him. The truth is no matter what our sin we was at one time all enemys with God. We have all sinned against Him. I thank God for his mercy and grace. His lovingkindess is better than life itself. His mercy is new every morning.
many universities are leading the way in antichristian immorality which has helped to decay american socioty. it all goes along with the thought of its a new modern era and we can do whatever we please. there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[agua]

....
So just like we are to admonish a fellow Christian several times and try to talk to them and if they do not listen or wish to follow the truth, then we are to walk away from them. This does not mean to not provide help or to view them with non compassion, or to be mean , but to tolerate any sin constantly and simply say something like, I will pray for you and see you next Sunday is wrong. As this does nothing to convince them that what they are doing is wrong. All this attitude does is show them that this unconditional love will allow all things and there are no consequences for any action.

How we deal with members of the Church who sin is different to how we treat unbelievers. A member of the Church who is caught in sin is instructed, and counselled to stop sinning, and then if they persist they are put out of the Church for a time until repentant.


1Co 5:9-13 NKJV I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. (10) Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. (11) But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. (12) For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? (13) But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "PUT AWAY FROM YOURSELVES THE EVIL PERSON."

This is Satan's way of turning Gods word around and using it against the believer and allowing sin to enter into things with extreme acceptance and tolerance. Each allowance of a sin and acceptance of a way of sin, only leads to more acceptance and more allowance and soon all sins are acceptable due to this modern day unconditional love nonsense.

Loving sinners doesn't mean accepting their sin. Jesus didn't discriminate and healed everyone who came to him. We know Jesus didn't tolerate any sin.


Mat 4:23-24 NKJV And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. (24) Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

No one is saying to not provide help to any sinner, to not provide help and or mental or physical health care to anyone, but to take all due precautions while doing so.

Yes precautions should be taken.

1Co 9:27 NKJV But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

In the case of this young college girl who is faced with this situation there is no way in her situation that she can even say........homosexual activity is wrong. As soon as she says this a complaint is put into play against her or anyone who will say this, and unless she bows her head and accepts the fact that all institutions like this say homosexual activity is allowed and acceptable, then she is fighting a lost battle.

Yes it's annoying a person cannot speak the truth but there is also a time to speak and a time to keep silent. Our motivation in dealing with unbelievers is to present the gospel and the Holy Spirit will convict a repentant heart of sin.

One alone in such a situation cannot win, simply because of the attitude of today that this is an acceptable behavior. Look at the world, and how it has become called normal. Go to web sites and see how this homosexual situation now calls Jesus a homosexual and how they turn words around to accuse Jesus of being an enunch and turn this around to say even Jesus was a homosexual. This is a major deal and one that is taking us down the path to some really bad results.

Yes this is sad and annoying.

We see this unconditional love thing in all walk of life and in all sin and in all crime. The modern attitude is to simply allow it.

And all eyes are blind, God tried and tried to show all from the old testament to present day that sin and allowance of it only caused those who do allow it to suffer the results of the sin. So he himself destroyed some people, even destroyed the entire world once, and still we do not learn. Still we continue to tolerate sin and allow all things . This sin and allowance gradually takes over our society and our own religion and soon it is simply called normal. The breaking down of values and morals and family structures and the simple morals of life to live by are absorbed by the sin and we continue to simply say.........we should love them.

It makes me sick, I hereby protest!!! Wake up, stop your sleep and take the veil off your eyes. Listen to what God has taught us, and stop all this unconditional love nonsense.

The prevalence of sin in the world is very sad.

Can you provide some scriptures to show how Jesus love was conditional ?

Jesus made such a simple statement in one of his teaching parables. He said remove the rotten apple from the barrel before it contaminates the rest of them. Such a simple statement and so true.

Please post the parable. I'm not sure how we can remove an unbelieving sinner.
We are taught to remove a sinning believer from the Church but how do we remove a sinning unbeliever ?

God does wish us to show compassion, to help and never turn away anyone, but he also puts a limit on things. He wishes us to uphold his laws of simple morality and to live by them. Common sense says that continual acceptance of all sin only allows it to creep into society and take it down.

So think about that for a bit, and for me there is not one thing wrong with voicing my opinion that sin is wrong, any sin, from homosexuality to murder to holding up the corner store , it is all wrong and those who commit them should suffer lasting and quick consequences.

Yes all sin is wrong and we are very fortunate God is patient.

2Pe 3:9 NKJV The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


He suffered long with Noah's unrepentant generation for 120 years before bringing the flood.


1Pe 3:18-20 NKJV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, (19) by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (20) who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Common sense folks........God says use it. God says I will punish those who allow and accept , I have done this through time, and I will again. I have tried to teach you how to live , but you reject it.
I taught you how to show compassion, how to pray, and how to live your life, but I also taught you that continual acceptance of sin will only exact consequences.

And we see them today, we see how our world has become and we see it daily on the news and in our lives.

Wake up......and use your common sense. Listen to God and what he has told us all, listen to him cry for us, and understand that one day he will again destroy all who allow and conduct sin. He has told us that he will come and destroy the world again, that he will only tolerate so much and then he will act. He has told us this looking forward and seeing how things will be.

God will indeed destroy the wicked in His time and it's our calling to spread the Gospel and pluck as many from the fire as possible. Our motivation is the salvation of sinners.

 

[agua]

gay people turn my stomach literaly. i feel queezy around them.

I suggest you pray long and hard about this.

 

[dannibear]

God will indeed destroy the wicked in His time and it's our calling to spread the Gospel and pluck as many from the fire as possible. Our motivation is the salvation of sinners.

Amen! Couldn't have said it better myself.
What most people fail to see is that God does indeed
weep over the children that chose eternal suffering.
He weeps over their pain and weeps for their choices.

He does not condone any sin, but He loves
them enough to weep when they didn't choose
life instead of darkness. When Jesus saw the
consequence of sin (mortal death) on Lazarus,
and how it affected everyone, He wept.

 

[eddieb]

Okay, please do. I have always thought it was specifically homosexual. Like the term Sodomy we use today, for the city that was destroyed.

remember the story of the angels going to lots house to warn him of the coming destruction and the local men said send them out so they could know them. lot instead offered his virgin daughters and lots offer was refused. they told him no send out those men(angels) but then the angels blinded the men.
i would say thats homosexual.

im not sure how to use this quote thing. sorry if it didnt quote the right thing.

 

[dannibear]

remember the story of the angels going to lots house to warn him of the coming destruction and the local men said send them out so they could know them. lot instead offered his virgin daughters and lots offer was refused. they told him no send out those men(angels) but then the angels blinded the men.
i would say thats homosexual.

im not sure how to use this quote thing. sorry if it didnt quote the right thing.

That is the very passage that made me stumble
in my faith a long time ago. ^ Memories.
I remember thinking "WHY would he offer his daughters
like that??" And then I realized, if he lived there, he
would have known the state of their sin and known
their answer ahead of time. Like God asking Abraham
to sacrifice his son, but since God promised descendents
to Abraham, he trusted God had a point in it. I
am really glad I got that passage off my chest a long time
ago.

 

[eddieb]

I suggest you pray long and hard about this.

agua i think u misunderstand my point. what i am saying is i dont agree with it and yes it does disgust me. BUT by Gods grace i was able to still love this person, that is give them what they needed. I was able to let the Lord speak thru me. I dont have to like them or what they do. But i am commanded to Love them. and i did that. if that makes me dirty and vile in your eyes so be it. but I did what was pleasing to God.
i didnt quench His spirit because i had an issue. thats my point. All things are possible Thru Christ Jesus who strengthens me.
maybe i shouldnt be so honest?

 

[agua]

agua i think u misunderstand my point. what i am saying is i dont agree with it and yes it does disgust me. BUT by Gods grace i was able to still love this person, that is give them what they needed. I was able to let the Lord speak thru me. I dont have to like them or what they do. But i am commanded to Love them. and i did that. if that makes me dirty and vile in your eyes so be it. but I did what was pleasing to God.
i didnt quench His spirit because i had an issue. thats my point. All things are possible Thru Christ Jesus who strengthens me.
maybe i shouldnt be so honest?

I have no problems with being disgusted by sin but we must be sure not portray hatred of the person. I am glad you are able to show love to homosexuals.

You are not dirty or vile in my eyes. : )

 

[Peace Seeker]

Whether or not homosexuals accept the gift of Christ's free love, Christ has given it. Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Whether or not homosexuals accept the gift of Christ's
free love, Christ has given it.

Yes, I understand this, that God the Father gave the gift of Christ's free love, as per John 3:16. Everyone was given that free love, as in no one was excluded from that opportunity to be saved. But unless you connect that verse with repentance and believing in Jesus Christ, I'm not sure why you made that statement.

Regarding the Ephesians passage, whom do you think it is talking to? It is speaking to born-again Christians, is it not? Those are the people who receive grace and are saved. And these actions being spoken of - being made alive, being saved by grace, etc. - are done for us by Christ when we surrender to Him and accept His free gift on the cross.

You make it sound like unconditional love means everybody automatically gets the grace in Ephesians 2. If not, then I don't see the point of your posting that verse in connection with God's unconditional love.

I have already stated to you that I believe God has unconditional love for all people. That unconditional love was expressed in Jesus dying for us on the cross and bearing our sins for us. We didn't ask Him to, He did it because of His amazing love, not willing that any should perish, etc.

As such, any sinner, homosexual or otherwise, that turns to God and renounces his sin, will receive the rich mercy, love and grace that is being promised in Ephesians 2:4-5 and John 3:16 .

BUT, and I see this all the time when people quote the most quoted verse in the bible, John 3:16, you did not read further to see that God says in verse 36 :

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

So I don't know why you keep repeating about unconditional love, without ever once mentioning repentance. Because regardless of God's unconditional love, NO ONE will receive God's grace and salvation if they don't repent and submit to Christ.

 

[Peace Seeker]

No one has treated Miss Keeton as a social pariah that's exaggeration. A pariah is an outcast. Christians must observe and keep each other accountable to godly standards. Why can we assume the homosexual clients are unrepentant when it's entirely possible some would seek counselling concerning their sin ?

My concern is if a Christian wants to with hold help based on a particular type of sin.

The love the sinner hate the sin attitude applies to all sinners, not just homosexuals. We shouldn't class homosexuals as a particular class of unrepentant sinner deserving extra condemnation.
I don't condone any sin.

This thread is definitely not focused on gay rights it is entirely about a Christian providing help to a sinner, which in this case is a homosexual. This seems to be a sore point with you and I'm not sure why.
I fully agree she should not be required to attend the gay pride events etc. The concern with this issue though is whether a Christian should with hold treatment to a sinner. Of course no Christian should condone any sin but we definitely should give aid and assistance whenever possible.

Who is our neighbour?

I wanted to respond to just a few specific things you said, but I don't know how to do the quotes thing, other than to quote everything you said. Anyway,

Regarding your statement : "it's entirely possible some (gays) would seek counselling concerning their sin".

Yes it is possible, and from what I understand, the counselor didn't say she didn't want to give counseling help to gays, she said she wanted to be able to tell them that they are immoral and sinners.

And that's the whole point of the attack on her. The powers that be do not want her to be able to help anyone that wants help for their sin. She is not and will not be allowed to tell anyone that they are immoral and/or sinning, regardless of their desire to get help with their sin. And if she cannot do that, there will be no gay person getting help for their sin. So the point is moot.

Anyway, about the word pariah, it doesn't have to mean outcast, it also means rejected, which she mostly certainly has been. Her worth as a counselor has been rejected outright, simply because she has a non-politically correct viewpoint.
She has been rejected by the court, by her employer, etc. On the other hand, she still may prove to be an outcast yet, if she finds herself needing to find other employment.

You said : "The concern with this issue though is whether a Christian should with hold treatment to a sinner".

To that I will just say I don't want a society where anyone is forced to do something they don't want to do. That is not liberty. And I will add, I would like a society where everyone's rights are upheld. Even non-politically correct Christians'.

As to who is our neighbor? I assume you are asking this with the parable of the good Samaritan in mind?

My neighbor is anyone that needs my help, and I will help anyone that needs my help.

 

[agua]

I wanted to respond to just a few specific things you said, but I don't know how to do the quotes thing, other than to quote everything you said.

I'll send you a pm with the method.

Anyway,

Regarding your statement : "it's entirely possible some (gays) would seek counselling concerning their sin".

Yes it is possible, and from what I understand, the counselor didn't say she didn't want to give counseling help to gays, she said she wanted to be able to tell them that they are immoral and sinners.

And that's the whole point of the attack on her. The powers that be do not want her to be able to help anyone that wants help for their sin. She is not and will not be allowed to tell anyone that they are immoral and/or sinning, regardless of their desire to get help with their sin. And if she cannot do that, there will be no gay person getting help for their sin.

Ok now I understand your thinking better.

Anyway, about the word pariah, it doesn't have to mean outcast, it also means rejected, which she mostly certainly has been. Her worth as a counselor has been rejected outright, simply because she has a non-politically correct viewpoint.
She has been rejected by the court, by her employer, etc. On the other hand, she still may prove to be an outcast yet, if she finds herself needing to find other employment.

Lol .. I thought you were suggesting the Christians here were treating Miss Keeton as a pariah. oops sorry about that.: /

You said : "The concern with this issue though is whether a Christian should with hold treatment to a sinner".

To that I will just say I don't want a society where anyone is forced to do something they don't want to do. That is not liberty. And I will add, I would like a society where everyone's rights are upheld. Even non-politically correct Christians'.

I doubt it's possible to have a society where every ones rights are upheld and no one is forced to do something they don't want. In this current world anyway. I remember recently when a non politically correct Pastor promoted a "burn the Koran day". Rights are a dangerous thing sometimes.

As to who is our neighbor? I assume you are asking this with the parable of the good Samaritan in mind?

My neighbor is anyone that needs my help, and I will help anyone that needs my help.

Amen. : )

 

[Peace Seeker]

I'll send you a pm with the method.

Thank you so much!!! I read the email and boy is that embarrassing how easy it is! LOL

Lol .. I thought you were suggesting the Christians here were treating Miss Keeton as a pariah. oops sorry about that.: /

LOL, no worries. It's so easy to be misunderstood in a forum that consists only of typed words! Anyway, from the very beginning I was upset at the way a fellow Christian was being treated. People talked about unconditional love on this thread, and I was trying to have that attitude towards the counselor, regardless of whether or not she was wrong in her stance.

I doubt it's possible to have a society where every ones rights are upheld and no one is forced to do something they don't want. In this current world anyway. I remember recently when a non politically correct Pastor promoted a "burn the Koran day".

Yeah, I remember hearing something about that Pastor. I'm an idealist when it comes to rights, because our rights are disappearing so fast. But that's another subject.

Rights are a dangerous thing sometimes.

100% agreed! Rights carry huge responsibilities.