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God and Free Will

aaroncam00

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
5
In the old testament there are prophecies of Jesus' coming. My question is once God had said this was there any way in which Jesus could not have come?

Could Israel have changed their ways and did exactly as God requested resulting in there being no need for Jesus?
 
God knew the end from the begining.....although they had a choice, God knew what there choice would be.

We are told Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

God knew men's hearts
 
they had a choice, this is my question, did they?

If they could have chosen to be "good" then Jesus would not have had to come and God would have been wrong in saying Jesus would come, So could they have really chosen to do "good" after God had promised Christs coming?
 
Man sinned in the garden of Eden and sin entered the world. From that point a saviour was needed. So, no matter what Isreal did Jesus still would have come.

And, in case it's your next question, Adam and Eve had a choice......God tod them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil...... They chose to eat it.

From that point we are born in sin. No one can be "good enough"

Christ was prophesied before Isreal existed ......... in Genisis

The first hint in the Old Testament that the coming Christ would be born of a virgin occurs right at the beginning.
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 3:15
This prophecy, known as the Protevangelium, comes from the most ancient oracle known to man—the oracle that the Lord pronounced when He found our first parents, Adam and Eve, guilty of sin. The Lord is speaking to Satan, who has enticed "the woman," Eve, into disobeying the Lord's command against eating fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He is saying that Satan will someday be crushed and utterly defeated by the seed of the woman.
The pronoun used to designate the seed is "his" (in "his heel"). In place of "it" (in "it shall bruise"), the more accurate translation is "he" (1). Therefore, the coming conqueror must be a single man. But why is He called the seed of a woman? A child is ordinarily regarded as the seed of his father and forefathers. The striking and unnatural character of the expression "her seed" suggests that it is a uniquely fitting name for the victor over Satan. Unlike other men, He would be the seed of a woman only. He would not be a man's seed. A virgin would conceive Him without losing her virginity.
 
We do have a limited range of choices but the concept of "free will" seems more of an invention of man.
There are many scriptures that tells me that we really have very little control.

These are a few:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

I don't think I would ever bother praying for someone to come to know God if they had free will.
 
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And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve Josh 24:15

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD Prov 1:29

Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Is 7:15

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Duet 30:19
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17
 
We do have a limited range of choices but the concept of "free will" seems more of an invention of man.
There are many scriptures that tells me that we really have very little control.

These are a few:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

I don't think I would ever bother praying for someone to come to know God if they had free will.

If there is no free will then if God wants me, He will make me come to Him and if He doesn't want me it won't matter what I do
 
If there is no free will then if God wants me, He will make me come to Him and if He doesn't want me it won't matter what I do

Exactly ,why else would I bother praying for someone.
You can certainly ask God to draw you or anyone else..

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ecclesiastes 6:10 Everything has already been decided. It was known long ago what each person would be. So there's no use arguing with God about your destiny.

I was dragged into the kingdom kicking and screaming by God because of folks who apparently did not believe in free will and prayed for me for 5 years.I chose to ignore God the whole time but God did not seem to honor my choice.
 
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[/I]I was dragged into the kingdom kicking and screaming by God because of folks who apparently did not believe in free will and prayed for me for 5 years.I chose to ignore God the whole time but God did not seem to honor my choice.[/QUOTE]

Maybe He just did not give up on you

At the end of the five years did God force you to come to Him or did you choose to?
 
At the end of the five years did God force you to come to Him or did you choose to?

Did Saul have a choice while on that road to Damascus?
Do you suppose the saints were praying about him and the damage that he was doing?


1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!


Does this sound like Saul had a choice?

Habakkuk 1:14 You have made men like fish in the sea, like sea creatures that have no ruler.

Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

Amos 4:2 The Sovereign LORD has sworn by his holiness: "The time will surely come when you will be taken away with hooks, the last of you with fishhooks.

Jeremiah 16:16 "But now I will send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will catch them. After that I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and from the crevices of the rocks.

I still have no option because Jesus is life.
 
Did Saul have a choice while on that road to Damascus?
Do you suppose the saints were praying about him and the damage that he was doing?



1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!


Does this sound like Saul had a choice?




[/I]I still have no option because Jesus is life.

Jesus came to Saul and presented/introduced himself to Saul. Saul then asked, what would you have me do?.....Jesus did not come and say you are going to do this, like it or not.

In the scripture in Corinthians, He is talking about the necessity of food etc... because of his choice to preach the gospel. He goes on to say that even with this problem, woe unto him if he doesn't. He has such a desire to preach that if he don't he will be in inner turmoil. Verse 17 of that chapter he speaks of doing it willingly or against his will, if there was no choice why present the options?

Jesus IS life, but you CAN choose death....


Deut 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,
 
Jesus came to Saul and presented/introduced himself to Saul. Saul then asked, what would you have me do?.....Jesus did not come and say you are going to do this, like it or not.

This encounter was not a casual introduction to the possibilities of serving the Lord.
No, is simply not an option when faced by the living God.There is really no faith involved at all,Saul saw.
Only those who can't see still have an option.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Verse 17 of that chapter he speaks of doing it willingly or against his will, if there was no choice why present the options?

New Living Translation (©2007)
1 Corinthians 9:17 If I were doing this on my own initiative, I would deserve payment. But I have no choice, for God has given me this sacred trust.

King James Bible1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

It seems to me that the only choice is whether he does it willingly or unwillingly,but he will do it either way.
Since willingness brings reward then he would just be stupid to do it unwillingly.

In the scripture in Corinthians, He is talking about the necessity of food etc... because of his choice to preach the gospel.

I think he is saying he is not deserving of any glory because he was compelled whether he wanted to or not.

Jesus IS life, but you CAN choose death.
I tried-I failed,God was bigger than me and it's hard to kick against the pricks.
Life chose Saul to be Paul.
 
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Thiscrosshurts;

We could go back and forth forever

My bottom line is this:
I believe had I not wanted to serve God, He would not have forced me. I also believe that if I want to walk away from God now, He would not force me to stay.

We may have to agree to disagree

The important thing is that we are born again and on our way to heaven.

You have given me much food for thought and I will be studying........
 
I believe had I not wanted to serve God, He would not have forced me. I also believe that if I want to walk away from God now, He would not force me to stay.
All things being equal I would agree,but the sovereignty of God and the prayers of the saints can interfere.
If we had free will we could choose not to sin then Jesus would not have been needed.


Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


If you are more powerful than these things and God then you can certainly separate yourself from his love.
If we were that powerful though we would not even need God,just the the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't feel a road to Damascus experience is a special favor at all.
It is better to believe without seeing:
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Once you see it is not easy to produce faith which we know pleases God.
Don't believe me though,Let God be true, and every man a liar
 
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God knew that without our free will we would serve Him as slaves and not as. Loving child/ Father relationship....Christs coming does not hinge on our obedience or not .He is the soon Coming King no matter what we do ..even if I was perfect with out free will and fault God would send His son to establish Gods kingdom here on earth..because of His great love for us..Rev
 
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God knew that without our free will we would serve Him as slaves and not as. Loving child/ Father relationship

My earthly Father never threatened me with eternal torture if I did not love him with all my heart.
That is however the way masters treat their slaves,the only difference is that they can't torture their slaves eternally.

Most denominations don't like predestination because it implies that God intends to torture some and exalt some.
The concept of free will was designed by men to explain how a loving God can torture people for eternity.

"Believe our denomination or burn" is great for cash flow.

Habakkuk 1:16 Therefore they sacrifice unto their net, and burn incense unto their drag; because by them their portion is fat, and their meat plenteous

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

The valley of the son of Hinnom is also called Gehenna which is usually translated "hell".
The Israelites would burn their children there in..um..hell .
It NEVER came into God's mind to do such a thing.
 
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Never said he threatened us to torture if we didn't serve..how ever I have four children I've taken and claimed as my own from my wife's prior marriage..I can't force them to love me but when they tell me that of free will and not because they feel they owe me it really nice and means a lot more to me...God loves us enough to allow us our own decisions right or wrong but His desire is we serve out of love and not damnation threats...For He would that all know eternal life...Rev
 
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