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History Of Pre trib-Rapture

MAJ52653

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
189
There is a theory where the 7 churches in Revelation stand for 7 ages in church history. The sixth church is Philadelphia, Asia Province. (Not Pennsylvania.) It is the next to last church, and is assumed to be the church of the missionary age. And that seems to fit. Jesus promises to open a door for them none can close, etc. But those favoring the theory of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture find a verse in this church’s section that they insist is not for the missionary age, but for the final last days church.

In Rev 3:10 ESV Jesus says to the Philadelphia church: “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.”

They insist this proves that Jesus will rapture the church before the tribulation starts, so they won’t have to go through the lively times about to come. Yet St Paul says that when Jesus comes: (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 CEV) “We believe that Jesus died and was raised to life. We also believe that when God brings Jesus back again, he will bring with him all who had faith in Jesus before they died. Our Lord Jesus told us that when he comes, we won't go up to meet him ahead of his followers who have already died. With a loud command and with the shout of the chief angel and a blast of God's trumpet, the Lord will return from heaven. Then those who had faith in Christ before they died will be raised to life. Next, all of us who are still alive will be taken up into the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the sky. From that time on we will all be with the Lord forever.”

Exciting stuff. And I totally believe it. But there is one colossal flaw in using this as a verse about the pre-trib rapture. Did you spot it? Probably not. I am not surprised that you didn’t. Read it again. Still didn’t see it? Good boy! That is because the problem is not located in those verses by themselves. If it was, I doubt that the pre-trib rapture movement would have gotten started in the 1830‘s. Instead the problem comes out when we compare this section of scripture with another set. Revelation 20:4-6 ESV.

“Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.”

Now do you see it? If the first resurrection doesn’t occur until after the tribulation (which as even pre-trib fans admit is when the antichrist runs around beheading those who refuse to take his mark) how can the saints be raised from the dead before the tribulation starts?

I have never met a pre-tribulation follower who can explain that one. The vast majority in fact are greatly surprised when I point it out.

Time for a short history lesson on something that hasn’t happened yet.

There are no writings or references by any writer about the pre-tribulation rapture prior to 1830. Every reference to the rapture before 1830 is to the post-tribulation rapture. There are web sites that offer thousands of dollars in prizes for the first person to offer evidence that it was ever taught before 1830. The size of the prizes grows, but the rewards are never claimed. This doesn’t prove that the theory is false, only that it did not exist among the early Christians, the Church fathers or any Christians throughout history until 1830.

The pre-tribulation rapture theory began with a fifteen-year-old Margaret MacDonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. In 1830 she had a dream or vision that Christians were raptured just prior to the Great Tribulation. In 1831 or 1832 a Presbyterian pastor in London, named Edward Irving heard about this dream or vision of Miss MacDonald, and started teaching it to his congregation. These are well-known and perfectly established facts among scholars of eschatology.

It is also well-documented that John Nelson Darby, founder of the Plymouth Brethren, only began teaching this new theory after visiting Miss MacDonald, In 1917, C. I. Scofield published his improved edition of the Scofield Reference Bible which contained the dispensational pre-tribulation teachings of Darby. Soon many Bible Colleges such as Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary became promoters of the pre-tribulation rapture. Still, it did not grow too much until after WWII. When Israel became a nation again in 1948, interest in the end times grew by leaps and bounds.

In 1970 Hal Lindsey, who attended Dallas Theological Seminary, published ‘The Late Great Planet Earth‘. Millions of copies were sold and a movie of it was made. The huge success of this book turned the pre-tribulation from a fringe doctrine into the standard in the USA.

I read this book before I became a Christian, and was greatly influenced by it. I didn’t know the shaky background of this theory at the time, and it helped make me decide to become a Christian.

The popularity of the ‘Left Behind’ series of books and movies has catapulted the popularity of the theory even farther, until questioning this Pre-Tribulation theory is seen as denying the Bible, rejecting the Gospel, and repudiating Christ and His Grace.

But widespread acceptance of a doctrine does not make it true. What really matters is not whether some Bible colleges or many pastors teach the pre-tribulation rapture theory, or even if many Christians accept it as true; what really matters is what does the Word of God say?

Most Christians in this country are not spiritually ready to go through what is on the horizon if it is as late as many believers think it is. The days of the Great Tribulation will be the worst time that this world has ever seen. And this earth has seen some very bad times. Not many Christians are ready to go through the Great Tribulation. Believing you are going to be raptured out before it begins is certainly not conducive to spiritual preparation for it. And unfortunately, a great many Christians think they are going to view the coming tribulation from a perch up in heaven where they feel they will be nice and safe.

Now back to Revelation 3:10. “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” (ESV)

Note that Jesus addresses the church in Philadelphia. A real church made of real people existing at that specific time and place. While the church as a whole can learn from the advice Jesus is giving them, as He ends His letter “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches”, He ends every one of the seven letters that way. Is there anything that makes this one verse be a promise to the entire church at the end times? I am afraid that the only thing doing that is wishful thinking. There is nothing in this verse that indicates that it is an absolute unconditional promise to the church at large in the last days just before the tribulation.

Let’s look at history. Did Jesus keep the church there from the hour of trial that was coming? No. Their bishop and 12 of his followers died in it. We can safely say that if Jesus meant that He was going to keep the Philadelphians safe and secure from tribulation, He failed miserably.

But we know Jesus never fails to keep His promises. So something must be missing here. And if we look at the Greek of the verse, we find it. Kamoi Tereo Se Ek Ho Hora Peirasmos is actually better translated as “I will get you through the hour of trial”. And GW does translate it “Because you have obeyed my command to endure, I will keep you safe during the time of testing which is coming to the whole world to test those living on earth.” Now that fits in better with His praising them that they did not deny that they were His followers in verse 8, His reference to their patient endurance in verse 10, and His urging them to hold on firmly in verse 11. They continued to hold on firmly with patient endurance and not deny they were His followers when the much bigger persecution came. They not only held on, despite the persecution and martyrdom of their bishop, the church there came out of the persecution bigger and better than it was when it went in. That is actually a much better source of encouragement for the church in the end times. That results in:

“After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb! All the angels stood around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength, be to our God forever and ever. Amen. Then one of the elders asked me, "Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?" I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. The One seated on the throne will shelter them: no longer will they hunger; no longer will they thirst; no longer will the sun strike them, or any heat. Because the Lamb who is at the center of the throne will shepherd them; He will guide them to springs of living waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:9-17 HCSB)

I am afraid that those who have bought into the pre-trib scenario will be shocked and horribly disappointed to find themselves going through the tribulation and having to face Antichrist. When that happens, millions will give up on God and His word. They will believe that God did not keep His promise of a pre-trib rapture. Therefore His Word must be false. Then they will reject Him.

Luke 18:8 ESV “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?"
 
I am afraid that those who have bought into the pre-trib scenario will be shocked and horribly disappointed to find themselves going through the tribulation and having to face Antichrist. When that happens, millions will give up on God and His word. They will believe that God did not keep His promise of a pre-trib rapture. Therefore His Word must be false. Then they will reject Him.

Luke 18:8 ESV “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?"[/QUOTE]

MAJ, I'm with you on this. The church should be preparing it's membership for persecution, instead of blindly leading it over the precipice!
 
1 Thessalonians ch 4 v 13 - 18 please read

It has been suggested that Paul wrote 1Thessaloinians because the church was in despair, and it is also suggested that he wrote 2nd Thess. because they were being deceived! 1 Thess. ch 4 informs us that no Saint will be going through the Tribulation.

The 'Rapture'.

This is an interesting word which means to seize, to snatch. The English word rapture is not used or mentioned. But the teaching of the Rapture comes from the meaning of the word which is used in this text. Today the word rapture means expressive joy and extacy, the fullest joy ever known, joy unspeakable. Paul wants us to understand some things about this passage.

Preview of the Rapture 1Thess4.13:14** "But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even them also which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him". Paul says ''don't want you to be ignorant brethren''

The 1st thing Paul wants to do is Dispel the Ignorance, Paul uses that phrase in other places, He wants to dispel ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Describes the believers Death v13 'fallen asleep' sleep of the body in death.

Jn 11:11 Lazerus 4 days dead. (fallen asleep) Stephen Acts 7:60 as stoned he fell asleep. As in physical sleep we expect to awake, so in spiritual realm when we die, we will be awakened by the Lord

Defending the Believers Hope 3rd part of verse ''lest ye sorrow as others who have no hope'

Paul wrote this letter to the Thessalonians to dispel their sadness. Some had lost loved ones, they had stood by the grave, so they asked the question "what about my dad"? If Rapture comes he's already died what is going to happen to him? Paul said there was no need for them to sorrow as others who have no hope. Thess 4:13

Not that we should'nt sorrow of course, we do sorrow when loved ones die. This passage is a commentary on 1Cor:15 which explains how Christ took the sting out of death. When Christ took the sting out of death, he changed death, from death to sleep for the Christian. Jesus has taken the sting out of death. He triumphed over death on the cross. Death is no longer final, death is a reclining, a falling asleep, waiting for the day of resurrection to come

The dead in Christ are not left out of the Rapture. The dead in Christ have a prominent place in the Rapture, what a comforting truth this must have been when Paul wrote, and said the Beloved dead, are not going to be forgotton they are going to be in place no 1. Notice what he says as he gives the certain promise of the Rapture. 1Thess4:15 Paul says let me give you some truth here, not only are they included in the Rapture they are going up first.

Chronological Programme of the Rapture

4 or 5 things come in rapid fire here in this passage
(A) The Return v16 'the Lord Himself''
God is not sending Angels, He is not sending the Holy Spirit. It is Jesus who is coming back, the emphasis is upon the personal return of the Lord Jesus. Remember the words of the two Angels when they spoke to the followers of Jesus at the ascension. "This same Jesus shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go" Acts ch 1 v 9-10-11 (read)

If Jesus is to descend, as the scripture says, in same manner in which he ascended, we can expect his coming. His Coming is to be Personal, Visible and Physical. Not the Holy Spirit, Not the Angels. But the Lord Himself thats the message of the bible. Jesus is leaving heaven again, this time to catch up His bride ''the Church'' to be with Him. The detail of this passage is so complete, given all the sounds that will be heard 'Shout' 'Voice of Archangel' 'Trump of God'

There has been discussion about these sounds but as I see it as just one sound described in three different ways. Lord will come with a shout, which is such a thing as Voice of Archangel, which is such a thing as Trump of God. One sound that is a 'Shout a Voice' a 'Trumpet' I don't know what that will soundlike but it will not be misunderstood by those who belong to Jesus. It will be a sudden stupendous event just as His ascension was a sudden stupendous event. And after His Return there will be a resurrection.

B The Resurrection end v16
''dead in Christ'' this is not a resurrection of all the dead but a resurrection of those who are in Christ. There is another resurrection coming later on that will be the 2nd resurrection...... we don't want to be a part of that one. This is the first resurrection, the resurrection of the dead in Christ. After this Resurrection there will be a Rapture.

C. The Rapture v 17
''caught up'' the word rapture comes from that ''two word'' phrase, 'caught up'. An interesting Greek word, which has a number of meanings. These meanings all point to something thats important, to whats going to happen. The word is 'harpadzo' Sometimes this word means........

(a) 'to carry off by force' This means that the devil and powers will do all they can to keep Saints upon the earth, but Jesus will overpower him delivering us by His omnipotent force. The Lord is Almighty, able to overcome all resistance to the Rapture.

(b) ''to claim for one's self eagerly'' This second meaning informs us that Jesus will claim us as His very own.. He redeemed us by shedding His blood, and He will surely come for us.

(c) ''to snatch away speedily'' This emphasises the sudden nature of the rapture, It will be in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1Cor.15:52 In a split of a second of time, the Lord will call all believers to Himself to share in His glory. Tim Lahaye is absolutely right about this in his book, the first one 'Left Behind''. People will be going about life as normal, then one day a segment of the population will be missing. Drivers will be gone, believing air pilots will be gone, the bible says the Lord is going to hover over the universe and believers will be snatched up, like the pull of a magnet out of the population. It will happen in a moment, without warning, no time to left to get ready, immediately the whole church will be gone. God is going to send His son to catch us up out of here.

(d) ''to rescue from the danger of destruction'' It is very important that if a person believes in the inspiration of the scripture, he must believe that the Holy Spirit chose this special word (caught up, harpadzo) to tell us that believers will be taken out of the danger of destruction. That is we won't be in the coming tribulation, we will be caught up out of the Tribulation before it happens. So there is The Return, The Resurrection, The Rapture, then The Reunion 1Thess 4.17**

What sort of a reunion? Dead bodies are going to be reunited wirh their spirits. What happens when a Christian dies? Well who is the real person? The body? No the real person is Spirit & Soul. When Christians die they leave the body and go to be with the LOrd. The body lies in the grave. But God cares about the body so in the Rapture the dead will rise and be Reunited in a glorified body with their Soul & Spirit. Thats the first part of the reunion.

Then the resurrected believers are going to meet the living believers in the air. There will be a Meeting in the air! All of us together ushered into presence of the Lord. Such an exciting thing, there is going to be this re-union. We are going to meet those who have gone before. Re-union in the air, outside of heaven, ushered as one great group of people into presence of the Lord.

The Comforting purpose of the Rapture 1 Thess4.18** The great purpose of prophecy is that we might comfort one another. To show people the Hope, which is sure, and which we have in Jesus.

We sorrow not as those who have no Hope. We have a Hope. A Surety. Where do we get such a Hope?
From the word of God. After the Rapture we will never know meaning of separation again never- never- never.
We should be looking for the LOrd....... Living for the Lord.......... always ready

"Be ready" said Jesus




I am afraid that those who have bought into the pre-trib scenario will be shocked and horribly disappointed to find themselves going through the tribulation and having to face Antichrist.

If I am wrong, I certainly will not be 'horribly disappointed....' I have trusted the Master over 60 years....I am sure whatever..... will not move my trust in Him now, or in the future.

When that happens, millions will give up on God and His word. They will believe that God did not keep His promise of a pre-trib rapture. Therefore His Word must be false. Then they will reject Him.

How can any human assume this? And upon what is the assumption made?
 
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Matt ch 24; 29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
_________________________________________________________________
For me, the above blows the pre-trib, or secret rapture theory out of the water.
Jesus does not come secretly for His church and then come again.
He comes again once, and very publicly,as in, all eyes will see Him!
 
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Matt 24 v 29 is speaking about the 2nd Advent of Christ.......not the Rapture.

Your ref to the 2nd Advent can also found in Mk 13:24 - Luke 17:22 & 21:25 - 2Thess 1:7 - 2:8 - Jude 14 - Rev 1:7 - 19:11 - Dan 7:13 - Zech 14: 1-5

The Rapture is the imminent return of the Lord Jesus for His church. By imminent I mean at any moment. As pointed out in my earlier post, and scripture reference

Some believe that half way through the trib. Jesus will come back for his church, and those who are ready will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

Soma believe that Jesus will return for His church, not before the Trib, neither in the middle, but at the end of it. So these put the Rapture of the church, and the coming of the LOrd together as the same event.

I do not believe that. I first believe the Rapture......then the Tribulation.....then the second Advent when Chris will return with His church to establish his kingdom.

The bible encourages saints with "looking for that blessed hope" Quoted earlier.

Nowhere in scripture can I find any reference to say that believers are to go through the Great Tribulation. There is a difference between tribulation and persecution......Persecution was a way of life for Christians.. But when God pours out his wrath upon the earth.......in the Great Tribulation......

I am expecting the Church to be taken out if it.

As it was in the days of Lot..........Lot was saved

As it was in the days of Noah........Noah was saved.......So shall it be.....
 
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Indeed

I am afraid that those who have bought into the pre-trib scenario will be shocked and horribly disappointed to find themselves going through the tribulation and having to face Antichrist. When that happens, millions will give up on God and His word. They will believe that God did not keep His promise of a pre-trib rapture. Therefore His Word must be false. Then they will reject Him.

Luke 18:8 ESV “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?"

MAJ, I'm with you on this. The church should be preparing it's membership for persecution, instead of blindly leading it over the precipice![/QUOTE]

Exactly. Let us follow a version of Pascal's wager.

1. If the entire history of the church is wrong, and the pre-tribbers are right, we will suffer no harm. We shall be pleasantly suprised. The worst that happens is that we might feel a momentary embarrassment.

2. If what the church as a whole has taught for 2,000 years is correct, and we believe it, we shall be ready.

3 But if we believe the pre-trib scenario, and it is false, we shall suffer unexpectedly, blame God for lying, and probably be lost.

After all, as Jesus promised, every generation in the history of the church has been persecuted. In the 20th century more Christians were martyred than in the first 19 centuries combined.

What in the world is so fabulously wonderful about that last lucky generation that is alive just as the tribulation starts that it should be the only one not to be persecuted, but even gift wrapped and hauled off to heaven before it can so much as be so much as given a nasty look by the anti-christ?
 
MAJ, I'm with you on this. The church should be preparing it's membership for persecution, instead of blindly leading it over the precipice!

Exactly. Let us follow a version of Pascal's wager.

1. If the entire history of the church is wrong, and the pre-tribbers are right, we will suffer no harm. We shall be pleasantly suprised. The worst that happens is that we might feel a momentary embarrassment.

2. If what the church as a whole has taught for 2,000 years is correct, and we believe it, we shall be ready.

3 But if we believe the pre-trib scenario, and it is false, we shall suffer unexpectedly, blame God for lying, and probably be lost.

After all, as Jesus promised, every generation in the history of the church has been persecuted. In the 20th century more Christians were martyred than in the first 19 centuries combined.

What in the world is so fabulously wonderful about that last lucky generation that is alive just as the tribulation starts that it should be the only one not to be persecuted, but even gift wrapped and hauled off to heaven before it can so much as be so much as given a nasty look by the anti-christ?[/
QUOTE]



There is a difference between persecution and tribulation.

As for Pascals wager.............HaHaha Dear Lord.
 
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What in the world is so fabulously wonderful about that last lucky generation that is alive just as the tribulation starts that it should be the only one not to be persecuted, but even gift wrapped and hauled off to heaven before it can so much as be so much as given a nasty look by the anti-christ?

"Lucky generation.......gift wrapped.......hauled off......not so much as a nasty look by the Anti-Christ".............Dear Lord Jesus. Come on now!

I could ask "Who am I speaking to"? Such speculation, give me something from the Word of God......
 
Matt ch 24; 29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other"

Notice what Jesus is saying here, "Immediately after the distress of those days---"v29. And then. "At that time the sign--" When will Jesus return? After the distress of those days! Who is He coming for? His elect! Who else will see Him? All the nations, everyone! When Jesus says something, it's the truth, plain and simple.
John14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life."
Rev19:19:10, "Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy"
 
This will be my last post in this thread. We will have to differ......God Bless.

The signs around in earth and sky, O,er painted on the star-lit sky, Gods faithful witnesses declare that the coming of the Saviour draweth nigh.

The dead in Christ who neath us lie, In countless numbers all shall rise, When through the portals of the sky, He shall come to prepare our paradise.

And we who living yet remain, Caught up to meet our faithful Lord, This hope we cherish not in vain, But we comfort one another by thse words.

"Comfort one another with these words" 1 Thess 4: 13 - 18
 
I'm going to study this carefully before I make a final post. However, I'd like to remind you MAJ that our goal on earth right now is one thing, to preach the Gospel. As of how we will go or when, or what will happen - it makes no difference to the PURPOSE we are expected to live for...again which is to preach the Gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ's offer of Salvation. That is the only reason why the world is "turning", by the grace of GOD (of course, that all prophecies be fulfilled in the meantime).

Remember...we are to reach out to the lost. To argue about tribulation or rapture is fruitless. To discuss in a loving manner, backed by Scripture ***AND OPEN HEART TO LET THE HOLY SPIRIT LEAD*** is a wonderful thing.
 
Yes Chad, preaching the Gospel is the great commission for all christians.
It's been said, that the church is the only society in the world that exists primarily for the sake of it's non-members.
"This gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." matt 24:14
Jesus won't return until this happens! Keep preaching, and hasten His advent!
 
Hello all:

I believe in the post-Tribulation Rapture, and I would like to politely point out that Stephen didn't address the fact (which MAJ brought up) that the first resurrection includes those beheaded for not taking the Mark of the Beast.

Rev 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf
 
Of course the GREAT Tribulation is the Wrath of God!
He cannot bring His wrath on His own body!
You think He can? I do not !

He saved noah and I know, He saves His family and household!
Noah was seen as a righteous man in the flesh.
We are too.
But we also are in CHRIST JESUS and sons and daughters
 
He missed it

Hello all:

I believe in the post-Tribulation Rapture, and I would like to politely point out that Stephen didn't address the fact (which MAJ brought up) that the first resurrection includes those beheaded for not taking the Mark of the Beast.

Rev 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

True indeed. But what is truly interesting is how he missed this mention of the first resurrection when he himself mentions the second resurrection (of the unjust) just a few verses later. You would think he would have read verses 4-5 to get to the later verses in the chapter.
 
Hello all:

I believe in the post-Tribulation Rapture, and I would like to politely point out that Stephen didn't address the fact (which MAJ brought up) that the first resurrection includes those beheaded for not taking the Mark of the Beast.

Rev 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

Sorry chum...Must have missed that.

Just now having a glance at this....and not going back to what I said......or indeed what others said.

The verses you quote are about, during thetribulation. O.K.

The scripture which I have given precede the scripture you quote.

"Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ"

Do you have any 'HOPE' as mentioned here.

In the Billy Graham meetings I used to sing......."I'm possessed of a hope that is steadfast and sure..........

Do you have this 'sure' hope? Seems not.

You are going through.......I believe that I am going up.

Go with Pascal wager........was that it? I forget.

Go with it........and go away with it........Indeed go through with it.....

Lay off please....this web-site is all about Jesus

Please tell me something which you have discovered about him in your own personal life.

Tell me something about Jesus........what have you to say I loved to talk about the Lord!!!
 
the first resurrection Started when Our LORD went up and goes on until the end of the GREAT tribulation!

The Rapture is different?
It is when the LORD meets us in the air!

This is before , His wrath comes upon this evil world!

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these word

Then we return with our LORD , to rule with HIm 1000 years!

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.:love:
 
just stumbled upon this thread. i've never really understood the whole rapture thing so i avoid discussions about it.
i suggest that we do not allow this to tear us apart. the issue of rapture is not unimportant but it is more important that we get to know christ more, to grow in wisdom and the grace of our savoir.
i believe that as we become more like Him(walking in the spirit and the Word, exhibitin the fruit of the spirit etc) we get to the point where we understand such mysteries as rapture.
we should remember also that we all are students of the word.
lets not hurt one another with innuendos or dissmissive words. God is our master.
 
I see the rapture as very important.
After it ? It the worse time ever on the earth.
We need to know about it and look forward to it!
Of course all scripture is very important as the TRUTH sets us free.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

we cannot fear scriptures and we should never take it personal.


we learn and grow by revealing scriptures and there meanings.

Now I will admit many will not see the true understanding all the time .but in time the Holy Ghost will make the Truth known to us , if we are willing?

We should never accept anything as Truth? until we know in our spirit it is Truth!
Our outward mind could be tricked , but our spirit will never be tricked.

Plus we have the Spirit of Truth .Which is a part of GOD HIMSELF!:love:
 
Of course the GREAT Tribulation is the Wrath of God!
He cannot bring His wrath on His own body!
You think He can? I do not !

He saved noah and I know, He saves His family and household!
Noah was seen as a righteous man in the flesh.
We are too.
But we also are in CHRIST JESUS and sons and daughters

I always saw it this way: Noah was saved from the flood but he still had to go through the event.

God protected the children of Israel from the series of plagues that he sent while they were still in bondage in Egypt.
 
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