Homosexuality is normal so it should not be considered wrong

[Chad]

by Matt Slick / Is CARM homophobic? | What is homophobia? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

This objection is commonly raised in support of homosexuality. Of course, what is normal is rarely ever defined, but instead is bantered about and offered as a reason for justifying homosexual activity.

First of all, "normal" is defined as...

• dictionary.reference.com
  • "conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural."
  • "approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment." b. free from any mental disorder; sane.
• thefreedictionary.com
  • "Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical"
  • "Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies."
  • the usual, average, or typical state, degree, form
• websters-onlinline-dictionary.org
  • "Conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal"
  • "Being approximately average or within certain limits in e.g. intelligence and development; "a perfectly normal child."
  • "Something regarded as a normative example"

Statistical Normality

We can see from the definitions above that homosexuality does not fit in the norm because it is statistically practiced by less than 5% of the population. (See Statistics on the percentage of the population that are homosexual and lesbian). So, in that sense, homosexuality is not normal.

Biological Normality

If homosexuality is considered normal because it occasionally occurs in the animal kingdom, then this does not support it being normal since it is practiced by a small percent of animal populations which is below the norm.

If, however, an appeal is made to the fact that homosexuality occurs within animals regardless of the percentage of the occurrence, then this has problems because it implies that whatever occurs in the animal kingdom is normal for us. Then wouldn't this mean that it is normal to eat your young, to eat other creatures alive, to lie in wait to ambush and kill, sniff other human being's rear ends, eat placentas, barf up food to give to your young, and eat your own feces? But, since people will differentiate between a sexual conduct and eating poop, they apply the it-is-done-in-the-animal-kingdom standard of morality to themselves in a selective fashion -- particularly when it centers around their fleshly desires.

Evolution

What about it being normal in regards to evolutionary theory? If evolution is how humankind got here, then how did the tendency for homosexuality survive genetically since it does not produce offspring? It would seem that what is normal, evolutionarily speaking, would be that which produces offspring - not that which does not. After all, haven't we evolved over millions of years and billions of generations of biological life forms, such that genes that produce survivability are removed from the population? So, from this perspective how could homosexuality be considered normal? In fact, evolutionarily speaking, homosexuality would be abnormal and it would have to be a learned behavior.

So, whenever anyone says that homosexuality is normal, it becomes obvious that the standard of normality either doesn't exist or when they try and cite one, it works against them. Is homosexuality a normal practice? I certainly don't see how it could be.

"Homosexuals are born that way. Therefore it is natural and good"

One of the arguments offered by those in support of homosexuality is that homosexuality is an orientation that people are born with and it has the same moral value as the hair color someone has at birth. The implication is that since they are said to be born gay, then it is normal and morally acceptable. The media seems to support this idea, and it is a common position held to justify the behavior. But there are two problems with this position.

First of all, there are a plethora of studies with conflicting results and conclusions on both sides of the argument. Nevertheless, we could quickly consider studies that deal with identical twins. If genetics determines sexual orientation, then it should be manifested when studying twins who share the exact same genetic information. However, that isn't the case. Consider this...

"...If genetic influence were expressed in these data, MZ twins1 should have the highest concordance for same-sex erotic preference, and unrelated and half-siblings the lowest. Table 5 is based on pairs in which at least one respondent reports a same-sex romantic attraction (N=527 pairs)...there is no evidence for strong genetic influence on same-sex preference in this sample. Among MZ twins, 6.7 % are concordant. DZ twin 2 pairs are 7.2% concordant. Full-siblings are 5.5 % concordant. Clearly, the observed concordance rates do not correspond to degrees of genetic similarity. None of the comparisons between MZ twins and others in table 5 are even remotely significant17. If same-sex romantic attraction has a genetic component, it is massively overwhelmed by other factors. As argued above, it is more likely that any genetic influence, if present, can only be expressed in specific and circumscribed social structures."3 [underline added]

In addition, genetic information that supports heterosexual attraction is more likely to be passed to offspring than would homosexual genetic information, since homosexual practice does not produce offspring. It would seem, as the study states, that homosexuality is not genetically based. Therefore, homosexuality is a learned behavior and should be called a preference, not an orientation.

Born this way and morality

Second, if being born gay means that homosexuality is morally acceptable because it is natural to them, then it must also be morally acceptable for those who are born with a tendency to oppose homosexuality. It would mean that "heteros" should not be urged to change their "orientation," nor should they be ridiculed for opposing homosexuality -- since they are born that way. To be consistent, the homosexual community should support homophobia as a natural sexual orientation that they are born with. After all, it would seem more likely that heterosexuality is genetically based since heterosexual behavior produces offspring where homosexual behavior does not. So, heterosexual orientation must be genetically natural, should be supported as a normal behavior, should not be ridiculed, should have civil rights protection, and be promoted in schools and the media. And, homosexuals who accuse heteros of being homophobic should be labeled as heterphobes. Otherwise, the obvious double-standard offered by the homosexual community will once again rear its ugly head.

Another problem

Furthermore, to carry the excuse that homosexuality is genetically based to its logical conclusion, then men born with a natural attraction to young boys should also be considered as having a legitimate sexual orientation with its accompanying moral propriety. Or, are we to say that only homosexual attraction is genetic and morally good where pedophilia is not? If so, why the double standard? And, to step further into the abyss, what do we do with those who are born with the tendency to lie, covet, hate, and steal? Shouldn't they all be morally acceptable as well, since that is how we are born? If not, why not?

Conclusion

The problem with using genetics as an excuse to justify behavior is that whatever tendency we might be born with must be considered normal. This includes lying, pedophilia, homosexuality, and rape. But, such a logical inference will not be acceptable to the pro-homosexual community because selective statistics and discriminatory reasoning are offered to justify their behavior.

 

[DHC]

Hello Chad.

Anyone who struggles with understanding homosexuality should read the following.

UK Integrated Household Survey (2011).

2.7 % of 16-24 year age group identified as Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual.
0.4 % of 65-90 year age group identified as Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual.

What a dramatic fall in participation in sexual deviation an almost 800% decline
by age in the UK. Social conditioning is the main contribution to the variation.

Australia (phone poll, 2003).
The largest and most thorough survey in Australia to date, 19,307 participants.
Males 1.6% as Gay.
Females 0.8% as Lesbian.

Exactly half the number of women than men which poses significant problems for
theories of genetic disposition. If one was to do some research on the female participants
you would quickly find. That the females were largely abused by males when they
were young, predisposing them to avoid male union. Females are over 99% heterosexual
and for good reason. Women from head to toe are designed for relationship with a male.
If genetics were responsible then the distribution should not display a two fold difference
between female and male homosexuality. End of argument.

 

[Last Things]

It's a psychological condition. No one identified themselves as homosexuals in the ancient world. People engaged in homosexuality while also having a wife and raising a family. The very concept of 'homosexual' is a recent psychological invention.

Homosexuality does not exist in nature among animals. Any reference to homosexual behavior deals with issues of dominance that have nothing to do with homosexual sex.

 

[RJ]

I think the following verses are the bulk of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality. With the emphasis on:

• It is a sin, no worse than any other
• We are to love the sinner as ourselves
• Ours is not to judge. That doesn't mean we have to accept it, no more than we would any other sin.
• A homosexuals only hope for change is to have Christ in them.

• Leviticus 18:22

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

• Romans 1:26-28

For this reason God gave them up to dishonourable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

• Romans 13:8-10

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

• Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

• 1 Timothy 1:10

The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

• Matthew 19:11-12

But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

• Isaiah 56:3-5

Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely separate me from his people”; and let not the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

• 1 Corinthians 7:2

But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

• Mark 10:6-9

But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

• 1 Timothy 1:10-11

The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

• Romans 1:32

Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

• Hebrews 13:1-25

Let brotherly love continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body. Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

• James 4:12

There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbour?

• Jude 1:7

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

• 1 Kings 14:24

And there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

• 1 Corinthians 7:7-9

I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

• Genesis 19:1-38

The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”

• John 8:7-11

And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]

• 1 Timothy 5:8

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

• Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

• Matthew 7:12

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

• Galatians 5:14

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

• Judges 19:22

As they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, worthless fellows, surrounded the house, beating on the door. And they said to the old man, the master of the house, “Bring out the man who came into your house, that we may know him.”

• Matthew 22:39

And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

• Romans 1:27

And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

• Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

• Matthew 7:1-5

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgement you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

 

[farout]

Very few people have been in in an ER with the medical problems homosexual come in with. Perhaps most people think homosexual males are kind and loving to each other, and just fall in love like most men and women do, or at least did once upon a time. Same sex "love" with either men or women is always a sin. God never intended for sexual contact between people of the same gender. Each gender that would rather be with someone of the same sex, has usually been abused in some way in his or her past.

Having been a pastor I have seen parents blame themselves for why their child has become gay. There are so many reasons as to why people are gay, and to give support for same sex unions, or as some states now allow same sex marriages is a sin too.

Sexual sin is always wrong, no matter what it is, To say we are not to judge what is a sin is not biblical. Sin no matter what it is always brakes our relationship with God. ! john tells us to confess it and we with confession are to repent, and God forgives. That is with all sin, not just sexual sins. our sin's wit such great pain Jesus carried to the cross, and Jesus paid the price for our sin's. That's for my past sin's, my sin's of now, and sin's in the future. No wonder Jesus felt His Father has forsaken Him.


There is hope for anyone wanting to repent and confess our sins, no matter what they are. But to say homosexuality is not a sin is a lie right from the mouth of Satan himself.

 

[DHC]

I think the following verses are the bulk of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality. With the emphasis on:

• It is a sin, no worse than any other
• We are to love the sinner as ourselves
• Ours is not to judge. That doesn't mean we have to accept it, no more than we would any other sin.
• A homosexuals only hope for change is to have Christ in them.

Hello RJ.

After reading your post #4, I would disagree with two of the four points you made RJ.

Here is the first point that you made RJ;

It is a sin, no worse than any other

Sexual immorality is far worse than most other sins RJ. Fornication is mentioned
numerous times in the New Testament. The instruction given regarding forniction
is to 'flee' from it, do not go there in other words.

1 Corinthians 6 (KJV)
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth
fornication sinneth against his own body.

Sexual immorality is a heavier type of sin than say not telling the truth. If you were
a minister in a church and you were caught committing sexual sin with a member
of the church. You would be stood down from your position immediately. Whereas
a lie would be frowned upon and no doubt would not be stood down.

Moving on to the second point RJ;

We are to love the sinner as ourselves

Mark 12:31
The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment
greater than these.”

RJ please correct me if I am wrong on this point, but the Old Covenant commandment that Jesus
highlighted. Is the legal commandment given to Israel 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'.
Which you are quoting in your own words above.

It seems to me that we have the new commandment under the New Covenant which is as follows.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.

It may seem to be a fine difference but one is unconditional love and the other conditional.
One is the written commandment of the law and the other a New Covenant commandment.
The first is not empowered by the Holy Spirit, but the new command is.

 

[RJ]

Hello RJ.

After reading your post #4, I would disagree with two of the four points you made RJ.

Here is the first point that you made RJ;

Sexual immorality is far worse than most other sins RJ. Fornication is mentioned
numerous times in the New Testament. The instruction given regarding forniction
is to 'flee' from it, do not go there in other words.

1 Corinthians 6 (KJV)
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth
fornication sinneth against his own body.

Sexual immorality is a heavier type of sin than say not telling the truth. If you were
a minister in a church and you were caught committing sexual sin with a member
of the church. You would be stood down from your position immediately. Whereas
a lie would be frowned upon and no doubt would not be stood down.

Moving on to the second point RJ;


Mark 12:31
The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment
greater than these.”

RJ please correct me if I am wrong on this point, but the Old Covenant commandment that Jesus
highlighted. Is the legal commandment given to Israel 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'.
Which you are quoting in your own words above.

It seems to me that we have the new commandment under the New Covenant which is as follows.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.

It may seem to be a fine difference but one is unconditional love and the other conditional.
One is the written commandment of the law and the other a New Covenant commandment.
The first is not empowered by the Holy Spirit, but the new command is.

Sure, I understand but look at it this way:
Isaiah 59:2
Romans 3:23

• All sin God counts as iniquities and separates us from him.
• Sure you should flee fortification but shouldn't you also flee stealing , lying, murder...etc. ?
• God loves the sinner but hates the sin does he not?
• Remember what I originally said: "A homosexuals only hope for change is to have Christ in them". They can come to God on their own but, many times, they will come to God through us!
• What about love your enemies? Is a homosexual not also your neighbour? Does"love one another", exclude a homosexual or any other sinner. I think not. All sinners are dead to their sin; we were no different. Who else are we to witness the gospel to but all unbelievers?
• I think it is wise not to categorize or separate out as different "levels" of sin: Matthew 6:14-14

 

[DHC]

Sure, I understand but look at it this way:
Isaiah 59:2
Romans 3:23

• All sin God counts as iniquities and separates us from him.
• Sure you should flee fortification but shouldn't you also flee stealing , lying, murder...etc. ?
• God loves the sinner but hates the sin does he not?
• Remember what I originally said: "A homosexuals only hope for change is to have Christ in them". They can come to God on their own but, many times, they will come to God through us!
• What about love your enemies? Is a homosexual not also your neighbour? Does"love one another", exclude a homosexual or any other sinner. I think not. All sinners are dead to their sin; we were no different. Who else are we to witness the gospel to but all unbelievers?
• I think it is wise not to categorize or separate out as different "levels" of sin: Matthew 6:14-14

All sin God counts as iniquities and separates us from him.

This is true of the deeds of the flesh, I agree with this.

Romans 5
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so
through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Death was introduced to mankind through the one act of disobedience by Adam.
Sin and death prevailed over mankind as a direct result of Adam's transgression.

Sure you should flee fornication but shouldn't you also flee stealing , lying, murder...etc. ?

The scripture uses the word 'flee' to elevate the need of the disciples to be more aware of the
gravity of sexual sin. Fornication must be avoided by all means and at all costs during the
Christian life. We have in (Acts 15) the specific instruction to abstain from fornication. This
was the advice given to the Gentile churches by Holy Spirit through the apostles.

So the obvious question regarding sexual immorality is; did the apostles to the Gentiles
place a hightened emphasis on sexual immorality?

1 Thessalonians 4
4 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received
from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk),
that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of
the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from
sexual immorality;

It is clear that Paul is calling the 'abstinence from sexual immorality (Acts 15)' a commandment.
Paul passed this particular command given by Jesus to the Jerusalem Council onto the Gentile
Churches. Paul sees the abstinence from sexual sin as sanctification in (1 Thessalonians 4).

Further RJ we also know that of all the sins recorded in the New Testament, there is only one
sin that carries a manifold judgement.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man
sins against his own body.

Sexual diseases are a consequence of sexual immorality and though all are not fatal. Some
do devastate the body and cause death. Here is a list of some sexual infections that one may
acquire. Some of the infections listed have multiple strains.

Chancroid, Chlamydia, Cytomegalovirus, Genital Warts, Gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, Herpes,
HIV & AIDS, Human Papillomavirus, Intestinal Parasites, Molluscum Contagiosum,
Pelvic Inflammatory Disease, Pubic Lice, Scabies, Syphilis and Trichomoniasis.

The only way to really avoid these infections or afflictions is to avoid sexual immorality.

In addition, fornication destroys marriages and can ruin lives. Offspring will be affected.
There was once only one way out of marriage and that was sexual infidelity. Advertisers
play the most powerful card in the deck all the time RJ, the allure of sex. Within the
carnal flesh the human desire for sex is a primary drive. See the connection?

You cannot destroy a marriage by telling one lie, but you can end a marriage through
one act of infidelity.

1 Corinthians 7:2
But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife
and each woman her own husband.

We are told that we should marry to avoid sexual immorality. We are instructed to
marry for life to avoid this sin. Seems a big call of the scripture to marry to avoid
this sin!

1 Corinthians 10:8
We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty three thousand fell
in a single day.

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual
immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment
of eternal fire.

For another day RJ, would be the discussion of the spiritual reading of sexual immorality.

God loves the sinner but hates the sin does he not?
Remember what I originally said: "A homosexuals only hope for change is to have Christ in them".
They can come to God on their own but, many times, they will come to God through us!
What about love your enemies? Is a homosexual not also your neighbour? Does"love one another",
exclude a homosexual or any other sinner. I think not. All sinners are dead to their sin; we were no different.
Who else are we to witness the gospel to but all unbelievers?

Agree RJ with what you said above.

I think it is wise not to categorize or separate out as different "levels" of sin: Matthew 6:14-14

RJ the separation of sin into a heirachy is what the Bible does. I am not the one who is doing the
arranging of the types of sin. If you wan't to be a solid Christian then avoid sexual immorality
by all means available to you. It has powerful consequences.

 

[RJ]

This is true of the deeds of the flesh, I agree with this.

Romans 5
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so
through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Death was introduced to mankind through the one act of disobedience by Adam.
Sin and death prevailed over mankind as a direct result of Adam's transgression.

The scripture uses the word 'flee' to elevate the need of the disciples to be more aware of the
gravity of sexual sin. Fornication must be avoided by all means and at all costs during the
Christian life. We have in (Acts 15) the specific instruction to abstain from fornication. This
was the advice given to the Gentile churches by Holy Spirit through the apostles.

So the obvious question regarding sexual immorality is; did the apostles to the Gentiles
place a hightened emphasis on sexual immorality?

1 Thessalonians 4
4 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received
from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk),
that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of
the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from
sexual immorality;

It is clear that Paul is calling the 'abstinence from sexual immorality (Acts 15)' a commandment.
Paul passed this particular command given by Jesus to the Jerusalem Council onto the Gentile
Churches. Paul sees the abstinence from sexual sin as sanctification in (1 Thessalonians 4).

Further RJ we also know that of all the sins recorded in the New Testament, there is only one
sin that carries a manifold judgement.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man
sins against his own body.

Sexual diseases are a consequence of sexual immorality and though all are not fatal. Some
do devastate the body and cause death. Here is a list of some sexual infections that one may
acquire. Some of the infections listed have multiple strains.

Chancroid, Chlamydia, Cytomegalovirus, Genital Warts, Gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, Herpes,
HIV & AIDS, Human Papillomavirus, Intestinal Parasites, Molluscum Contagiosum,
Pelvic Inflammatory Disease, Pubic Lice, Scabies, Syphilis and Trichomoniasis.

The only way to really avoid these infections or afflictions is to avoid sexual immorality.

In addition, fornication destroys marriages and can ruin lives. Offspring will be affected.
There was once only one way out of marriage and that was sexual infidelity. Advertisers
play the most powerful card in the deck all the time RJ, the allure of sex. Within the
carnal flesh the human desire for sex is a primary drive. See the connection?

You cannot destroy a marriage by telling one lie, but you can end a marriage through
one act of infidelity.

1 Corinthians 7:2
But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife
and each woman her own husband.

We are told that we should marry to avoid sexual immorality. We are instructed to
marry for life to avoid this sin. Seems a big call of the scripture to marry to avoid
this sin!

1 Corinthians 10:8
We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty three thousand fell
in a single day.

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual
immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment
of eternal fire.

For another day RJ, would be the discussion of the spiritual reading of sexual immorality.


Agree RJ with what you said above.

RJ the separation of sin into a heirachy is what the Bible does. I am not the one who is doing the
arranging of the types of sin. If you wan't to be a solid Christian then avoid sexual immorality
by all means available to you. It has powerful consequences.

Sorry, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
Your hierarchy holds no significance to me.
So avoid sexual immorality but lie, steal, murder or etc. will lead to eternal fire just the same. It has powerful consequences. So homosexuality has greater damnation or punishment than another sin? Separated from God and thrown into hell for all eternity....can't get much worse than that for all unbelievers!
Be perfect, have no sin but commit the unpardonable sin of unbelief and your just as spiritually dead!
I detest my enemies but are we not called to love them as our neighbour?
I detest homosexuality but, again , I ask, is not a homosexual your neighbour as well?

• You respond by saying: "RJ the separation of sin into a heirachy is what the Bible does. I am not the one who is doing the
  arranging of the types of sin. If you wan't to be a solid Christian then avoid sexual immorality
  by all means available to you. It has powerful consequences." But you fail to acknowledge the Matthew 6:14 that I quoted...I think it best that you dwell on that more!

 

[DHC]

Sorry, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
Your hierarchy holds no significance to me.
So avoid sexual immorality but lie, steal, murder or etc. will lead to eternal fire just the same. It has powerful consequences. So homosexuality has greater damnation or punishment than another sin? Separated from God and thrown into hell for all eternity....can't get much worse than that for all unbelievers!
Be perfect, have no sin but commit the unpardonable sin of unbelief and your just as spiritually dead!
I detest my enemies but are we not called to love them as our neighbour?
I detest homosexuality but, again , I ask, is not a homosexual your neighbour as well?

• You respond by saying: "RJ the separation of sin into a heirachy is what the Bible does. I am not the one who is doing the
  arranging of the types of sin. If you wan't to be a solid Christian then avoid sexual immorality
  by all means available to you. It has powerful consequences." But you fail to acknowledge the Matthew 6:14 that I quoted...I think it best that you dwell on that more!

Hello RJ.

Some particular types of sin are far worse than other types of sin in God's eyes

Given that you see all types of sin as equal in God's eyes, then I will illustrate from the
text that this is certainly not the case.

Why did Jesus single out the Pharisees for special treatment, after all they were just sinners like everyone else.

Matthew 23
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful,
but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28 So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Because the Pharisees shut the door of the kingdom of heaven on anyone who listened to them.
These Pharisees in your eyes undergo the same level of judgement as anyone else. The text
appears to say otherwise 'you serpents, you brood of vipers'. Not a career that I would consider
RJ. Jesus singles them out for a lengthy tirade for the sins that they committed which in summary
included the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Not only did they murder their creator but they also attributed
the power that Jesus displayed to the devil himself. The unforgivable sin, the Pharisees could not be
forgiven for committing this type of sin RJ.

 

[RJ]

Hello RJ.

Some particular types of sin are far worse than other types of sin in God's eyes

Given that you see all types of sin as equal in God's eyes, then I will illustrate from the
text that this is certainly not the case.

Why did Jesus single out the Pharisees for special treatment, after all they were just sinners like everyone else.

Matthew 23
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful,
but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28 So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Because the Pharisees shut the door of the kingdom of heaven on anyone who listened to them.
These Pharisees in your eyes undergo the same level of judgement as anyone else. The text
appears to say otherwise 'you serpents, you brood of vipers'. Not a career that I would consider
RJ. Jesus singles them out for a lengthy tirade for the sins that they committed which in summary
included the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Not only did they murder their creator but they also attributed
the power that Jesus displayed to the devil himself. The unforgivable sin, the Pharisees could not be
forgiven for committing this type of sin RJ.

From previous posts and threads, I felt that we agreed on most subjects but apparently not on this.

• Your long laundry list from Matt. 23 is meaningless to support your premise, in fact, it supports mine.
• First you focus on sex immorality ( homosexuality)as the highest in some type of hierarchy?
• Then you bring in uncleanness, lawlessness and hypocrites, vipers.
• So which is the worst?
• I am sorry to say DHC, you just don't get it here. You say: RJ. Jesus singles them out for a lengthy tirade for the sins that they committed which in summary
  included the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Sure it included blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because it is the only sin , of all sins that will not be forgiven. There is your hierarchy, there is your number one sin....unbelief!
• DHC, you need to go back read your Bible a little more before you make such bold claims.

1. Mark 3:29 .... DHC, all sins, except unbelief, are forgiven...pretty much means all sins, save one, are in one category; which would include the originally discussed homosexuality!
2. Matthew 12:31-32.....You can even speak against Jesus himself and it will be forgiven.

• If you die in your sin (any sin) or die without accepting Jesus Christ, you go to Hell. So which of these sins is the worse but only in the mind of man?
• I have asked you a couple of times to answer a certain verse but you have failed to do so so please, DHC, how do you interpret this verse? ..Matthew 6:14
• Anyway, I hope you answer but I am done with this discussion brother.

 

[DHC]

From previous posts and threads, I felt that we agreed on most subjects but apparently not on this.

• Your long laundry list from Matt. 23 is meaningless to support your premise, in fact, it supports mine.
• First you focus on sex immorality ( homosexuality)as the highest in some type of hierarchy?
• Then you bring in uncleanness, lawlessness and hypocrites, vipers.
• So which is the worst?
• I am sorry to say DHC, you just don't get it here. You say: RJ. Jesus singles them out for a lengthy tirade for the sins that they committed which in summary
  included the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Sure it included blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because it is the only sin , of all sins that will not be forgiven. There is your hierarchy, there is your number one sin....unbelief!
• DHC, you need to go back read your Bible a little more before you make such bold claims.

1. Mark 3:29 .... DHC, all sins, except unbelief, are forgiven...pretty much means all sins, save one, are in one category; which would include the originally discussed homosexuality!
2. Matthew 12:31-32.....You can even speak against Jesus himself and it will be forgiven.

• If you die in your sin (any sin) or die without accepting Jesus Christ, you go to Hell. So which of these sins is the worse but only in the mind of man?
• I have asked you a couple of times to answer a certain verse but you have failed to do so so please, DHC, how do you interpret this verse? ..Matthew 6:14
• Anyway, I hope you answer but I am done with this discussion brother.

Hello RJ.

The context of my discussion was within the scope of the Christian walk.
The context of your discussion was based on the universal concept of sin,
unbelief and judgement.

Two different horses running in different races RJ.

I did state that I agreed with the bulk of your argument RJ but that I elevated
the sin of sexual immorality. This elevation of sexual immorality and not a 'laundry list'
of sin was purely in the context of the Christian life. Because the scripture in the
New Testament does place extra significance on this fundamental trait that blights
the human condition.

Although you do agree with the fundamentals of my argument you were interpretating
what I said. Then applying what I said in a more general sense to the world itself.
Which you then claimed that I needed to 'need to go back and read your Bible'.

The reason why I quoted the Pharisees was to highlight that there are specific human traits
which unchecked. Are far more catastrophic in the realm of life than many other types of
sin. We know that the Pharisees failed on the ground of unbelief in Jesus just like many other
folk. This is the generalized aspect of the fundamental sin of unbelief that the whole world
exhibits.

I agree but must highlight that the Pharisees moved beyond the fundamental unbelief
into an aggressive state of denial. Which is the state of blashemy of the Holy Spirit and
from this position the Pharisees had sealed their own fate. Salvation was impossible for the
Pharisees because their sin exceeded the parameters that God had instituted.

It is impossible for you RJ to deny that some types of sin carry a much firmer response
from God. This is plainly evident in the New Testament letters.

Here is the final argument I will offer RJ and this is only within the context of Christian
fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5:6
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with
the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the
destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

May I say RJ that the person above had not eaten a stolen chocolate bar while in
this assembly. The sin was sexual of course and notice the response from Paul.
Extreme consequences for a very great transgression. Not a slap on the wrist by
any means.

Mark 3:29 .... DHC, all sins, except unbelief, are forgiven...pretty much means all sins, save one,
are in one category; which would include the originally discussed homosexuality!

Yes, yes RJ, but you are referencing all sin in the general sense of disobedience.

I am referencing particular sin within the confines of the Christian life.

Persistence pays RJ,

Matthew 6:14
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

The dynamic state of the Christian life, you will behave ultimately by what you really
believe. A Christian who does believe in Jesus will always strive to forgive all folk,
all their trespasses. Forgiveness is the foundation of our reconciled state, God grants
unconditional forgiveness to us all. So we respond hopefully with the same unconditional
forgiveness of every transgression that others commit.

 

[PrayerWarr1or]

This is something heavy on my heart. I have already stated on TJ that I am a homosexual by nature. However, I am aware for a long time now about the scriptures above, and truly it cannot be disputed that homosexuality is sexual sin in God's eyes. I will not kick a large boulder and cause harm to myself in trying to claim that homosexuality is not a sin. Surely pedophilia is a sin? Do we not all consider that to be naturally incorrect? Thus against God as a sin? That same basis for considering homosexuality against God; I consider myself thus asexual.

And do I still have love for those mislead that are close to my heart? I do, I love them very much. Well I choose to not participate in their activities? Of course I will distance myself. But I will confront them if they claim the Bible says it is not a sin. Moreover, they usually bring up the point that the Bible has been grossly misinterpreted by men over the centuries, and by that logic, they justify what is done. What I do not approve of is harm to others in the LGBTQ community, nor do I approve of discrimination towards them who fit this category. Was the Nazis' practice of killing those of gay and lesbian orientation along with so many others considered by them to be inferior wrong? Or would you say it was correct? God would have us not destroy or judge others, however we must attest to what the Bible says about the fate of those who practice homosexuality after this life.

I feel like I should hate myself for taking this stance. Are those the voices of those surrounding me, pressuring me into their way? Perhaps. But God's voice is what matters. The Holy Spirit is who I trust, no man will I seek guidance over this. The word of God is undeniable to me, thus I will obey God at any costs.

 

[B-A-C]

And do I still have love for those mislead that are close to my heart? I do, I love them very much. Well I choose to not participate in their activities? Of course I will distance myself. But I will confront them if they claim the Bible says it is not a sin. Moreover, they usually bring up the point that the Bible has been grossly misinterpreted by men over the centuries, and by that logic, they justify what is done. What I do not approve of is harm to others in the LGBTQ community, nor do I approve of discrimination towards them who fit this category.

Thank you for sharing this. Truly this nearly brought tears to my eyes as I read it. What a great testimony. Thanks for sharing how God has opened your eyes. We need to hear those stories sometimes. I will be praying for you brother.

 

[chris]

Sodom and gomorrah

 

[RJ]

This is something heavy on my heart. I have already stated on TJ that I am a homosexual by nature. However, I am aware for a long time now about the scriptures above, and truly it cannot be disputed that homosexuality is sexual sin in God's eyes. I will not kick a large boulder and cause harm to myself in trying to claim that homosexuality is not a sin. Surely pedophilia is a sin? Do we not all consider that to be naturally incorrect? Thus against God as a sin? That same basis for considering homosexuality against God; I consider myself thus asexual.

And do I still have love for those mislead that are close to my heart? I do, I love them very much. Well I choose to not participate in their activities? Of course I will distance myself. But I will confront them if they claim the Bible says it is not a sin. Moreover, they usually bring up the point that the Bible has been grossly misinterpreted by men over the centuries, and by that logic, they justify what is done. What I do not approve of is harm to others in the LGBTQ community, nor do I approve of discrimination towards them who fit this category. Was the Nazis' practice of killing those of gay and lesbian orientation along with so many others considered by them to be inferior wrong? Or would you say it was correct? God would have us not destroy or judge others, however we must attest to what the Bible says about the fate of those who practice homosexuality after this life.

I feel like I should hate myself for taking this stance. Are those the voices of those surrounding me, pressuring me into their way? Perhaps. But God's voice is what matters. The Holy Spirit is who I trust, no man will I seek guidance over this. The word of God is undeniable to me, thus I will obey God at any costs.

I go to a Presbyterian church. Much to my Pastor' dismay, I tell him I am a Christian first and cautously a Presbyterian second.
We recently have had a homosexual issue arise for the entire Presbytary and I hope a good example of your situation.
The powers to be have decided that we can not descriminate and we must allow professing homosexuals to be Pastors. Underneath the table, they are saying it is up to each church to determine who their Pastor is. We are a conservative congregation and I don't see us hiring a "known" homosexual but, in time that will probably change.
Homosexuality is not the main issue to me but the example is. The Bible reveals that God is against homosexuality....two examples: Matthew 24:37, Luke 17:29, but so he is against any sin that separates us from him.

I argue with my Pastor about the pitfalls of allowing a homosexualPastor. My point would be professing homosexual. What if you had Pastor that admitted he has a compulsive lier and he wasn't going to stop. What about a Pedophile? Now, I know that is an extreme example and would not happen because it is against human law but, it is a reasonable example because of the sin.

• How can a person be a Pastor of a Church and openly admitt that they have this sin and they are going to continue in it?
• How can we forgive that?

Back to you being a confessed homosexual. If we had a Pastor that admitted they had a problem with homosexuality but knew it is wrong and are working on stopping, of course we have room to forgive and can offer help. We probaly wouldn't hire the person but, it is not the same as a sinner who has no intention to stop.
Your here for a reason, we all love you no matter what, you are working on it, stay in the Bible and we will keep you in prayers for continued healing...God loves you!

 

[B-A-C]

Lev 20:13; If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Gen 19:4; Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;
Gen 19:5; and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them.”
Gen 19:6; But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him,
Gen 19:7; and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.
Gen 19:13; for we are about to destroy this place, because their wickedness has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”
Gen 19:24; Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only those who do the same, but also those who give hearty approval to those who practice them.

notice that verse - even if you approve of others doing it, you are guilty.

1 Tim 1:10; and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

A homosexual guy I work with, asked me what's wrong with men loving men. I told him nothing. I love men. I love my sons, my father, other men in the church.
But I don't consider myself homosexual. I told him I also love men. Then I asked I asked him "What's love got to do with it?".
After a few minutes, he said "I finally get it, it's sex."

 

[chris]

we all carry are own cross and may die with it, or repent and fight for the change , ask the Holy spirit for help and ask Jesus for help they both have heard it all nothing will shock them , they can do anything and all things , Bless it who he is that truly makes the change and walks away from that sin , and Jesus will wash you clean

 

[RJ]

Lev 20:13; If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Gen 19:4; Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;
Gen 19:5; and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them.”
Gen 19:6; But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him,
Gen 19:7; and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.

Gen 19:24; Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only those who do the same, but also those who give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1 Tim 1:10; and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

A homosexual guy I work with, asked me what's wrong with men loving men. I told him nothing. I love men. I love my sons, my father, other men in the church.
But I don't consider myself homosexual. I told him I also love men. Then I asked I asked him "What's love got to do with it?".
After a few minutes, he said "I finally get it, it's sex."

Great reply!

 

[GeoFestiva]

I'll agree there is no evidence; that I've seen or read about yet, of a genetic sexual predisposition. There are a lot of strange anomalies in humans, and I'll bring up another.

The practice of Monogamy. The theory that we are also only supposed to have 1 mate. This for us wouldn't be a statistic, genetic,or biological, "normal" either. In the animal kingdom, only 10% or less practice monogamy, in genetics and evolution it would be more productive, thus more normal, to widely distribute our DNA, so that more genetic diversity would occur.

Remember, evolution doesn't go in only positive directions, you can have genetic advancements (such as animals seeing in the dark), and genetic disorders (such as Parkinson's disease) . If I were to try and predict using the scientific method, If homosexuality is genetic, then homosexuality should eliminate itself with time, but will stick around for a good while longer due to bisexuality. I would make nearly the same prediction with Monogamy.