How can/could or should we help those seeking.

[laterunner]

A deeper & important query. From an ‘’Atheism’’ google..Is traditional Christian apologetics still relevant when non-believers simply don’t care about Christianity?
The Internet Monk suggests that ambivalence about religion is more common today than outright disbelief, and that apologetics arguments fall flat because the typical atheist today just doesn’t care about the Big Questions around which most Christian apologetics is built:
I’m convinced the game is not primarily about arguments any more. As grateful as I am for Tim Keller’s great book The Reason For God and his two hour presentations on You Tube, and as happy as I am that David Bentley Hart and others have convincingly demonstrated the fallacies of the new atheist arguments, the truth is that the contemporary atheist doesn’t plan to play a game of 21 with our NBA All Stars….
Atheism is just….easier. Theism is too much trouble. It starts to sound like someone is trying to sell you something sight unseen. Isn’t your best move just to hang up the phone and ignore the call?
If true, this leads us to an interesting conundrum: what are Christian apologists to do if their audience no longer wants to engage them?
Meaningful debate requires two people, both of them passionate about their viewpoints. But as people actively disengage from religion and lose interest even in debating it, what’s a Christian apologist to do? An apologist’s first task is now to convince them that religion is worth talking about in the first place.
With atheists and agnostics. Many just don’t seem to care. They don’t wake up every day intent on proving God’s non-existence or winning an argument with a Christian. They have too many other priorities to occupy their time.
What about you? Have you encountered people who just don’t care about religion, and if so, how did you respond? Is there value in training traditional apologists when many non-Christians could care less about their well-reasoned arguments?

 

[RJ]

God understood people like this and called them hard of heart:

2 Chronicles 36:13 (New International Version)

13 He also rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him take an oath in God's name. He became stiff-necked and hardened his heart and would not turn to the LORD, the God of Israel.

Daniel 5:20 (New International Version)

20 But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.

Mark 6:52 (New International Version)

52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.

Mark 8:17 (New International Version)

17Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?


All you can do is love the non-believer and be there when and if they become ready to listen.

When they are receptive, tell them the truth:

• God loves the non-believer as much as the believer.
• God has already forgiven the non-believer as he has the believer.
• Salvation is where God draws the line, that is only for the believer who has recieved the resurrected life of Jesus Christ.
• Though they are forgiven, judgement is only for the non-believer.

 

[laterunner]

While Christians claim the God created man atheists claim man created God.

How would you refute this idea??

 

[Boanerges]

A deeper & important query. From an ‘’Atheism’’ google..Is traditional Christian apologetics still relevant when non-believers simply don’t care about Christianity?
The Internet Monk suggests that ambivalence about religion is more common today than outright disbelief, and that apologetics arguments fall flat because the typical atheist today just doesn’t care about the Big Questions around which most Christian apologetics is built:
I’m convinced the game is not primarily about arguments any more. As grateful as I am for Tim Keller’s great book The Reason For God and his two hour presentations on You Tube, and as happy as I am that David Bentley Hart and others have convincingly demonstrated the fallacies of the new atheist arguments, the truth is that the contemporary atheist doesn’t plan to play a game of 21 with our NBA All Stars….
Atheism is just….easier. Theism is too much trouble. It starts to sound like someone is trying to sell you something sight unseen. Isn’t your best move just to hang up the phone and ignore the call?
If true, this leads us to an interesting conundrum: what are Christian apologists to do if their audience no longer wants to engage them?
Meaningful debate requires two people, both of them passionate about their viewpoints. But as people actively disengage from religion and lose interest even in debating it, what’s a Christian apologist to do? An apologist’s first task is now to convince them that religion is worth talking about in the first place.
With atheists and agnostics. Many just don’t seem to care. They don’t wake up every day intent on proving God’s non-existence or winning an argument with a Christian. They have too many other priorities to occupy their time.
What about you? Have you encountered people who just don’t care about religion, and if so, how did you respond? Is there value in training traditional apologists when many non-Christians could care less about their well-reasoned arguments?

My friend, arguing seldom accomplishes anything of lasting value. Like Jesus (our perfect example) we need to be led of the Spirit in all we say and do.
He certainly will give us the words to speak and those at the very moment that they are needed.
If you are around them long enough most of these folks who "don't believe" reveal that they do in the amount of anger in their dialect. If they really did not believe they would not be so passionate in their responses.
As far as the ones who "don't care about religion" they will generally start to care, look for help and sometimes seek you out quietly when they find their feet in the fire so to speak.
Express your love and concern to and for these people, sooner or later they will be drawn to the One who lives in you.
Lastly, prayer can move any mountain. Lift them up daily and ask the Lord for the right opportunity to share His love with them.
Many blessings in Jesus Name,
brother Larry.

 

[RJ]

While Christians claim the God created man atheists claim man created God.

How would you refute this idea??

I wouldn't try to refute it.
I would just tell them to be honest and before they doubt God, just read the Bible through one time.

Do it with an open mind and just look at it as an interesting story, but read it through from one end to the other.

Since the Bible so proclaims God to be real, they owe it to themselves to read it with an open mind and then make up their mind, if He exixts or not.

After doing that and they still don't believe, then they are right, God does not exist to them!

 

[Praiseius_Max]

ahteists,, and non christians

I remember back when Hurricane Katrina hit.. one day at work my manager told me to out up on the sign out front "" Lets all pray for hurricane victims'' The district manager made us change it to "Let's all remember hurricane victims'' He said thay ''pray'' is too controvercial... Christians and people who believei n God are the majority.... atheists and agnostics are the minority.. so why should we give in to them?

 

[stephen]

Hi Brother,


Just let Jesus come through......In His love

http://www.talkjesus.com/church-sermons/32414-praising-god.html

 

[A Blessed Man]

God understood people like this and called them hard of heart:

2 Chronicles 36:13 (New International Version)

13 He also rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him take an oath in God's name. He became stiff-necked and hardened his heart and would not turn to the LORD, the God of Israel.

Daniel 5:20 (New International Version)

20 But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.

Mark 6:52 (New International Version)

52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.

Mark 8:17 (New International Version)

17Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?


All you can do is love the non-believer and be there when and if they become ready to listen.


When they are receptive, tell them the truth:

• God loves the non-believer as much as the believer.
• God has already forgiven the non-believer as he has the believer.
• Salvation is where God draws the line, that is only for the believer who has recieved the resurrected life of Jesus Christ.
• Though they are forgiven, judgement is only for the non-believer.

Excellent answer RJ. I agree 97%. :wink:

You said:

God has already forgiven the non-believer as he has the believer.

Can you support this with scripture? I find that:

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:77
to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins
​

Salvation comes through the forgiveness of sins. If the unbeliever has forgiven sins, then he has salvation. Not so: the unbeliever is in his sin until he accepts the perfect gift that Jesus gave on the cross -- His shed blood and His resurrection.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
​

In His Love
Bob

 

[Questioning]

A deeper & important query. From an
Atheism is just….easier. Theism is too much trouble. It starts to sound like someone is trying to sell you something sight unseen. Isn’t your best move just to hang up the phone and ignore the call?

As a non-believer, I would agree with this sentiment, laterunner. Several years ago I realized that I no longer believed, and thought of it as a really big deal. It turned out to not be a big deal at all. The apologetics that I'm familiar with don't answer the questions I and other atheists have, so what's the use?

If true, this leads us to an interesting conundrum: what are Christian apologists to do if their audience no longer wants to engage them?
Meaningful debate requires two people, both of them passionate about their viewpoints. But as people actively disengage from religion and lose interest even in debating it, what’s a Christian apologist to do? An apologist’s first task is now to convince them that religion is worth talking about in the first place.

I agree with this also, but in my experience it's the other way around. I know of no believers who are also adequate apologists and who can answer the simple issues that any apologist would need to answer in order to cut to the heart of what needs to be dealt with.

With atheists and agnostics. Many just don’t seem to care. They don’t wake up every day intent on proving God’s non-existence or winning an argument with a Christian. They have too many other priorities to occupy their time.

As an atheist and an agnostic, I agree. This seems to be exactly the attitude of the atheists I know. More common, I think, is the ambivalence of believers to their own faith. Many professing believers of christianity or other religions act emotionally if I bring up the issue (that god may not exist as they think), but other than being angry, have no real response. This is disheartening for me, as I'm searching for any sort of esoteric truths from anyone, regardless of their spiritual bent or religious affiliation.

Is there value in training traditional apologists when many non-Christians could care less about their well-reasoned arguments?[/B][/COLOR]

I would think that the first logical step would be to list the most common questions/issues that atheists have with your position, then seek to answer them directly and concisely. The apologetics out there today don't do that, and so the nonbeliever walks away from such an encounter feeling dissatisfied, and the believer walks away knowing that he shared exactly what he was trained to share in exactly the right way--but it didn't work. Get to the real questions that atheists are asking, and then rework your apologetics. That is my humble suggestion, anyway.

Good luck.

:wink:

 

[RJ]

Atheist Questions

What are the questions of Atheists that go unanswered?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

what are Christian apologists to do if their audience no longer wants to engage them?

You have to divide non-believers into non-seekers and doubters. Jesus said "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself." (Jn 12:32 NIV). Not everyone will respond to His drawing. Many will reject Him and fall into the non-seeker category. Among the doubters, however, many will become seekers. Therefore, since Jesus will be drawing people to Himself up to the very moment of His return, there will always be people in the salvation pipeline until that moment.

SLE

 

[Questioning]

What are the questions of Atheists that go unanswered?

I think that most of them have to do with esoteric "knowledge." Things like: How do you leap from not knowing where energy and matter came from to supposing a god did it? or How do you go from supposing a god must have done it to claiming that a particular god did it? I guess there's other questions too, surrounding the issue of faith, and what it does or does not do, and how to demonstrate that it does or does not do certain things.

But, I don't think that looking at these few questions are going to help much. You'd have to go about this in a concerted and scientific way. First, determine what are the most common questions of non-believers (say the top 5 or 10). Then answer them as per your position or belief, and find out to what degree they are accepted or rejected by the nonbelievers. Look at your answers that are most often rejected by the majority of nonbelievers, and determine why this is so. In other words, try to discover the reason why nonbelievers don't accept answer X to question X. It could be something as simple as terminology, or it could be something as complex as the etymological considerations when determining proper translation. I'm merely suggesting that you look at your target audience and see what changes you can make in your presentation or your process to increase your intended results.

 

[RJ]

I think that most of them have to do with esoteric "knowledge." Things like: How do you leap from not knowing where energy and matter came from to supposing a god did it? or How do you go from supposing a god must have done it to claiming that a particular god did it? I guess there's other questions too, surrounding the issue of faith, and what it does or does not do, and how to demonstrate that it does or does not do certain things.

But, I don't think that looking at these few questions are going to help much. You'd have to go about this in a concerted and scientific way. First, determine what are the most common questions of non-believers (say the top 5 or 10). Then answer them as per your position or belief, and find out to what degree they are accepted or rejected by the nonbelievers. Look at your answers that are most often rejected by the majority of nonbelievers, and determine why this is so. In other words, try to discover the reason why nonbelievers don't accept answer X to question X. It could be something as simple as terminology, or it could be something as complex as the etymological considerations when determining proper translation. I'm merely suggesting that you look at your target audience and see what changes you can make in your presentation or your process to increase your intended results.

Is mathematical probability a good enough science for you?
Take just these two statistical improbabilities.

1. Jesus isn't who he said he was based on the prophecies that he personally fulfilled . Biblically, I think the number is @3oo. The odds of Jesus only completing 9 and not being who he said he was is 10 to the power of 16. That's, Jesus had 1 chance in 10 with 16 zeros behind it, of not being the son of God.

2. All original disciples of Jesus, except John (the 1st John), died separated, alone, horrible deaths, and none to their end, would deny Jesus Christ. That is a matter of historical fact and an impossibility, that Jesus was a fraud.

This may not be concrete enough but my point is, that no science support will work for those who do not want to believe.

It will never be a matter of scientific or hard proof! The only proof that will work for Man is through the power of the Holy Spirit himself.

Unfortunately, the only proof will come for some through the written word of God, the Bible. And if they don't at least give it a educated try, they will have no chance of knowing the only real truth in this universe.

 

[Questioning]

Is mathematical probability a good enough science for you?

For me? No. Probabilities merely give the statistical likelihood of something occurring. Probabilities never prove anything; probabilities explain perceived order among chaos.

Remember, I'm not talking about you or me, here. I'm explaining what measures might help your cause because of what questions nonbelievers tend to have. I'm merely hoping to help you understand the logical measures to take if you are interested in reaching nonbelievers.

Take just these two statistical improbabilities.

No thanks. This is about how to reach the majority of the folks you are concerned about reaching. It's not about me, or what conclusions I consider reasonable when reported to me by the believer of some religion or other.

I--me--myself is a "statistical improbability" in that I'm not your normal nonbeliever. Thus, what would or would not work for me is of little use to someone trying to reach the majority of nonbelievers. I have no problem discussing what would or would not convince me, but surely that's for a different thread than this one? Yes?

This may not be concrete enough but my point is, that no science support will work for those who do not want to believe.

I haven't a clue if that's correct or not because I don't understand what you mean. Certainly every individual has his own standard of proof that must be met in order for him to believe, but I think that here we're talking about how to reach the majority of the folks with the best answers you're "side" can provide. Maybe that's not the way you wish to go about it, but it's one method I suggested. You'll have to put the plan into action if you want to test it to see if it works as I claim it might.

It will never be a matter of scientific or hard proof! The only proof that will work for Man is through the power of the Holy Spirit himself.

Umm.. okay... I don't remember saying that it would be a matter of scientific or hard proof. If it's a matter of the power of the holy spirit then that's your answer. I'm not sure how that works or what you can do to make it happen, but maybe you do. You may want to disregard the advice I've offered, now. It's your call.

Unfortunately, the only proof will come for some through the written word of God, the Bible. And if they don't at least give it a educated try, they will have no chance of knowing the only real truth in this universe.

I'd have to know what you mean by "educated try" in order to answer that. I was a believer for several decades and on occasion I also exhorted/ministered. I'd say that that's much more/better than an "educated try," but maybe I wasn't trying right, or something.

 

[RJ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Unfortunately, the only proof will come for some through the written word of God, the Bible. And if they don't at least give it a educated try, they will have no chance of knowing the only real truth in this universe.

I'd have to know what you mean by "educated try" in order to answer that. I was a believer for several decades and on occasion I also exhorted/ministered. I'd say that that's much more/better than an "educated try," but maybe I wasn't trying right, or something.

My Friend Who Is Questioning,
What do you mean when you say for several decades that you were a believer?
What does a believer mean to you?

 

[Questioning]

Quote:
My Friend Who Is Questioning,
What do you mean when you say for several decades that you were a believer?
What does a believer mean to you?

1. I mean that for several decades I believed in the God of the bible and worshiped Jesus as the savior of humanity and relied on the assistance of the holy spirit in my daily life. For 99.9% of that time it never even occurred to me that what I believed might not be accurate.

2. One who believes in a specific god.

Is this thread about me or about what it purports to be about in the opening post? I think that if it's now about me somebody should change the title.

 

[RJ]

1. I mean that for several decades I believed in the God of the bible and worshiped Jesus as the savior of humanity and relied on the assistance of the holy spirit in my daily life. For 99.9% of that time it never even occurred to me that what I believed might not be accurate.

2. One who believes in a specific god.

Is this thread about me or about what it purports to be about in the opening post? I think that if it's now about me somebody should change the title.

Your number 2 is an interesting response. Do I have your permission to say something about that and then ask you a direct question about your relationship to God?

 

[Questioning]

Your number 2 is an interesting response. Do I have your permission to say something about that and then ask you a direct question about your relationship to God?

Absolutely.

Obviously, "believer" is defined differently depending on the context, but in the case of theism (or "god-belief), I think that definition is fair. Certainly neither one of us are "believers" when it comes to the idea that the BP disaster will be cleaned up by next week.

 

[RJ]

Absolutely.

Obviously, "believer" is defined differently depending on the context, but in the case of theism (or "god-belief), I think that definition is fair. Certainly neither one of us are "believers" when it comes to the idea that the BP disaster will be cleaned up by next week.

Obviously, "believer" is defined differently depending on the context, but in the case of theism (or "god-belief), I think that definition is fair. Certainly neither one of us are "believers" when it comes to the idea that the BP disaster will be cleaned up by next week.[/QUOTE]

This is a Christian view. I am not asking you to accept it. I know, my friend, Questioning, you have your own current belief system. It is not my job to change your mind, that belongs to another. But, I do know this, you are here for a reason:


Your BP disaster and the use of "believers" is out of context. One is believing, or not, in the seen; the other is a belief in the unseen.
And , it is the unseen that I am talking about.

Also and of course, just "Theism" is not sufficient for a Christian.

TJ, is as the initials state, a forum about Jesus Christ.
And, with regards to TJ, Christianity is based on one's acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.
Not just know about Jesus but, a personal, "one on one" relationship with Christ that only comes with salvation. Your salvation does not come from church or the the Bible but, from one source, and that source is Jesus Christ himself.

Salvation can happen very quick but, it is basically a 3 step process:
1. You are required through faith (belief), to believe in the unseen: the death , burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That he died one time for our sins, that he died and was buried and, he was resurrected to eternal life.

2. With Christ, in his now resurrected state, you must actively invite him to live inside you; this part of your faith and acceptance.

3. Once in you, you have your Spiritual Birth and salvation.

In John 3, God talks about two births, one of water and the other of the Spirit. The water is from a Mother's womb and the other is of God through the Holy Spirit and marks you as being "Born Again".

The Bible goes on to say that once born from either birth, you can not be unborn.

In Hebrews 6: 4, Paul talks about "falling away" and essentially says that it is impossible, that once saved, can you become unsaved, or once born of Spirit, be unborn.

So, Questioning, I would ask you this:

During your time of what you call being a believer, did you believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and ask him to come into your heart? From my personal experience and what I have shared with you, I do not see how you have taken the final step in your journey.

I did that when I was 55 yrs. old. I still remember a change that took place in my life and though I have my ups and downs in my walk with Christ, I will never go back. I know now, that before I knew of God and Christ but now, I know God and Christ.

My friend do you know God and Christ? He is as close as your own words.

 

[Questioning]

In Hebrews 6: 4, Paul talks about "falling away" and essentially says that it is impossible, that once saved, can you become unsaved, or once born of Spirit, be unborn.

Hebrews 6:4 is the opening clause of a sentence that goes through verse 5 and 6. Here is the whole sentence:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It seems as though the author is saying that something is impossible for a certain group of people, no? What is impossible, and who is in the group being addressed? Well, the thing that is impossible is for those folks to be "renewed again unto repentance," and the people being referred to are "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift," etc, etc "IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY." Clearly this verse states that believers can "fall away" to such a degree that they cannot be "renewed again unto repentance."

Can you think of any better way for the bible to detail why and how believers can, and what is the consequence for believers who "fall away?"

During your time of what you call being a believer, did you believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and ask him to come into your heart? From my personal experience and what I have shared with you, I do not see how you have taken the final step in your journey.

Indeed, I did, and preached that others should do those things as well. I tell you, I FIRMLY believed for more than thirty years. It was my diligent study of the bible that finally led to the collapse of my belief.

I did that when I was 55 yrs. old. I still remember a change that took place in my life and though I have my ups and downs in my walk with Christ, I will never go back. I know now, that before I knew of God and Christ but now, I know God and Christ.

I remember feeing that way during almost the entire time that I believed.

My friend do you know God and Christ?

I don't think that either can be "known," but, as I've already demonstrated, I'm willing to change my mind. I believe that if christians really did know God and Christ that they'd be much more unified. When a person asked 10 christians to pray for her on a given issue, she'd get at least 9 exact (or extremely similar) replies. In my experience, a person in such a situation can expect as many different replies as the number of people she asks--and that just doesn't add up if every person is talking to the same guy with whom they all share a "close relationship." If 50 people shared a close relationship with me, and within 24-48 hours they all shared with me the same story about Jill and her medical problem, my answer would be the same to all 50 people. Jill would get 50 identical responses.

In short, if even a fifth of the folks who claimed to know God and Christ did, I'd expect a heck of a lot more unity.

He is as close as your own words.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, maybe I'd take out "as close."